PC Some thoughts on books and skills progression.

[WarMongerian]

Like always, these ideas/suggestions are for options in game creation, folks that want them should have these tools to use, and those that don't care, don't need to set anything to avoid their impact.  That being said...

Hi folks, I've been thinking about recent playing sessions, and past times, and I realized that some folks that are playing are not understanding how the books and magazines work, and end up reading anything and everything they find, and have no clue on how to build their character to make better use of the books they read.

Although this is obvious to almost all players, there are some that could benefit by reading this.

1)  If your little digital dude/gal is going to do farming, "Living off the land" perk tree, under the Fortitude attribute, is  your go to friend, and Southern Farming is your required reading.

2)  If you are going to be doing Cooking, "Master Chef" perk tree, under Strength attribute is where you want to invest your points, and the Cook Book is your required reading.

These two areas are not the only ones that need some attention, but the whole is to much for my tired fingers to type in.

Looking at the poll questions, bear with me, and I'll edit them as suggested in thread to boil them down and make them clearer.

The basic idea is to limit/prevent the reading of books by folks that are not building their characters to use them.  Too many times I have had folks have the book smarts (they read all the books), but have no idea how their character makes use of them.  One game, we had 5 folks playing on our server, and the two new folks, a newbie lady and her experienced bf joined us.  The bf, as it turned out, had experience, but not current (A21 at the time) build experience, and had in the past played the roll of party finance guy, and resource manager.

By day 5, with no one building a base, and no dew collectors to be found, I started asking questions.  His whole effort was directed at looking, and killing zombies, so base building, farming, cooking, and crafting were left to others.  If it wasn't tied to weapon/ammo, he didn't want to do anything but loot/kill.

The result?

I built the base, investing in the building trades to do so, invested in living off the land to do the farming, and maxed out master chef to do the cooking.  Where were all the books the party had been collecting?  I couldn't make bacon and eggs, but his gf had level 91 cooking, despite only playing a very limited amount of time.  She also had level 20 southern farming, but never built/used a single farm plot.  When I asked where the books were, he said something like, "to the farmer, the farming", but what that really meant was, his gf, who had only played a very limited amount of hours by this time.

He and I continued butting heads in game after game, but the final game we ever played together, he had started resorting to mockery when He wasn't getting his way, which was starting to annoy me, but in the final game, we had this (Bad Guy), his gf, the guy that talked us into chipping in on a private server, I'll call him (Good Guy), myself, and my friend, or (Other Guy).  The gf wasn't playing at all, for the first several weeks, the Good Guy (GG) and the Bad Guy (BG), had finally figured out what was wrong with the private server, and got it up and running for a couple of game days, before my friend and I knew about it.  BG had convinced GG, that we needed to limit the number of workstations/campfires/forges and such.  He also thought that by dint of his investing all his points into the perk trees under the Intellect attribute, he should run the base.  He kept scolding me when I started build orders, on anything, claiming that his guy was better at everything, so I should leave all crafting to him.

Now, by the time I caught him online, cancelling my cooking orders, and he claimed he was better, and all things were cheaper and faster if he did it, I, looking at how long it was taking to even make drinks, asked BG how many points he had spent on the Master Chef perk tree, and when he said:  :There, I stuck a point into it..."  I lost it and let him have it.  The guy was trying to act like he knew everything about the game, and he didn't even realise that he was hurting our party, rather than helping it.  Long story short, I learned not to trust anything the guy said.

Anyway, I was just tonight thinking on more recent things, and realized that a system could be put in place that would stop the clueless from mindlessly reading all books, and either, spend points making use of the skills the books unlock, or hand those books off to folks that are going to perform the actions the books cover.

Personally, I really like the idea of locking book reading behind skill point expenditures, as then we cannot have folks reading books that they are not going to spec into, and they know to either bring these books back to base, for those who are going to need/use them, if in a team, or just sell/scrap them.

In terms of coordinated team play, doing this would allow for new folks to have a much better learning curve, provided in game tooltips are implemented, that explains why a particular book is not readable.  It would also be possible to place limits with a book type progression, by requiring additional skill points to be invested, to be able to read any more books of that type.

I can picture a 3 man team like this:

Tom, @%$#, and Harry are going into the world of the Zombie Apocalypse and plan to work as a team.  

Tom has an interest in checking out the whole "Cooking thing", and so needs all the Cook Books he can get.

@%$# wants to try his hand at farming, so all Souther Farming books are for him.

Harry wants to craft all sorts of things at the forge/workbench/cement mixer, So Forged Ahead are his books.

If these three wanted the game to help them stay on target, having settings that could be configured to prevent reading of one guys books by another, by just putting an invested kill point as a prerequisite to reading any of those books, would go a long way to solving this problem.  The game can be confusing, and has a lot to learn, and making such game setup options a thing, would allow host players to mitigate these issues for starting players.

 

[Riamus]

Just because you played the game with someone who had no interest in co-op doesn't mean the game has to change.  It just means you should choose a better person to play the game with.  If you play with decent people who want to work together, it works just fine.

I see no reason to restrict who can read a specific magazine.  Not only that, but I rarely put points into master chef until extremely late in the game because I don't really care about it.  I have plenty of stuff to cook with and time means nothing since I let it cook while I'm doing other things.  I also don't put more than a point into Living Off the Land until later in the game because I don't do a lot of farming until later.  But in both cases, I want to start improving what I can cook or farm (seed crafting) right away.  Being restricted from cooking or making seeds for farming just because I don't want to spend points in those perks is a horrible idea.

I know you said an option, but I still don't think it's a good idea.  Besides, people need to learn to work together.  That's sadly lacking these days.  It really isn't difficult to do so, and if people can't figure out which magazines they are reading and then drop the rest into a crate for others.... well, that's not a good thing.  And in the case of your example, if they wanted to let the girlfriend read those, she could have dropped a single point into the perk and read them.  One point isn't anything if they are that focused on reading those and don't care about the group, so it wouldn't really change anything in your example.

 

[WarMongerian]

I like your experience, but I have to say, wouldn't something along the lines of:

"I wouldn't use this feature if it was offered"

and leave it at that, be a better response?

Why the need to go into detail about why you wouldn't use this.  Folks that would use this feature if it was offered, don't need to see all that, just,  "Nope" and leave it at that?

Calling someone's idea a "Horrible Idea" is not a particularly nice thing to say, and this isn't the first time you have said this about an idea of mine.  So please, if you don't like an idea, just share that and don't try to belittle the idea beyond that, ok?

 

[theFlu]

The problem isn't the progress system, the problem is "some of people are completely incapable of working in a team". They're a plenty out there. There's two settings that can solve the issue; "PvP : on" for some cases, and for the rest "server password".  

Making the progress system "narcissist-proof" is pointless, they'll find another way to compete with you, hinder you and try to make themselves look like the big boy; their goal is to be seen as better than you - the "group up" thing is just an audience for their excellence. Ain't fixing that, other than a few well placed Deagle rounds and a kickban.

 

[YourMirror]

Horrible idea.

 

[Javabean867]

When playing together, you need to make sure everyone understands to bring back the mags and books for their party members.  If they can't agree to do that, then they need to make their own base elsewhere in the world.

I'm sorry you ran into a person who didn't understand that you were the cook, because you perked into it.  That's definitely frustrating.

But limiting the magazines to how many points you have put into perks wouldn't resolve your situation.  That guy would still think he knew best, even with a lower investment.  He probably thought that his points into advance engineering applied to all crafting.

 

[Dead Smarty]

I think the progress system can be improved but not for these reasons since there will always be people on a power trip and they will find another way to troll.
Also I think a better improvement would be to give reading a boost (like nerd armor does) if you had spent some points in it instead of increasing the ammount. Just my opinion

 

[Jeraal]

I already hate the magazine system, so this would make it worse for me. Sounds like you need to change groups rather than game code.

 

[warmer]

This type of restriction requirement makes the game slower and makes magazines useless until you've spent a skill point.

This doesn't make sense to me because it's a catch 22 situation.

Until you have skills in an area, you can't get more skills in that area. 

Kind of like needing experience to get an entry level job when you have never worked a job before. 

If we can't learn by reading regardless of skill points this is counter to real world learning and much slower. I would not be a fan.

 

[zztong]

I chose "Never, let folks read any books they want..." but I don't mind the idea of there being an option to require an investment into a Perk to act as a gatekeeper. I could see how that would be handy in a casual group. Alas, I could also see where it might be a very low developer priority.

 

[Jeraal]

I chose "Never, let folks read any books they want..." but I don't mind the idea of there being an option to require an investment into a Perk to act as a gatekeeper. I could see how that would be handy in a casual group. Alas, I could also see where it might be a very low developer priority.

For a group, I could see it preventing people from accidentally or intentionally reading a book. As a single player, absolutely not for me.

 

[WarMongerian]

Well, I have to admit I am pleased to see the number of responses in the last few hours.

Some things about this one guy (Bad Guy), you are all correct, and he was a self correcting problem that will never be a problem again.  That being said, let us keep in mind that this optional (notional) new game setting would be for the host player to decide.  Just like every other setting.  If folks didn't want to play on/in a map with this in use, they wouldn't have to play there, they could just make their own game(s), and not be bothered at all by this feature.

I'll ask this, do all you folks play with strangers in your 7 days to die games?

I mostly play single player games, where none of this would be an issue, but when I play with folks that are new to the game, this type of thing would be a great idea, and would help folks out if learning this great game, one little bit at a time. is made easier, by helping folks build their character along the path they want to follow.  Folks that used to play 7dtd on a regular basis, but gave it up in frustration, because they couldn't figure things out, and cheat mode was soooo easy...

TFP should really take a look at this idea, because it isn't aimed at the folks that are already happily playing the game, but those that could have been happy with it, had they not been overwhelmed, and left confused and disappointed.  If the goal is to retain some of the folks that they are losing, then helping folks learn the game, and what does what, this idea goes a long way for making that demographic better able to make the learning process better/faster, as then they know what some of the books do, and how to properly play as a group.  This idea is not aimed at folks that already know the game, but rather the large number of folks that try the game, don't get how things work, and end up leaving (and never posting here) and tell their friends what their experience with this game was like.  This idea is centered of that portion of the player/paying customer demographics, who are at least willing to buy/try out the game, but then never really could figure out what is what, and then drop the game.

I once attended a bit of 'higher' education, and discovered that some folks needed just a bit more help to get a handle on the subject matter at hand, and that the professors were at a loss as to how to bridge the gap, for those that just needed a little more help.  My advantage over the professors, was that my lack of understanding something was far more recent than their own, and this allowed me to make the cognitive leap to go from, not understanding something, to learning it, and then being able to put myself into their shoes, and see things from their perspective (that of someone that doesn't yet 'get it'), and work from there.  I was usually able to help them, often right in the classroom/immediately.

This thread is aimed at making new players have the tools to help each other, learn the game and learn teamwork with respect to the book system in 7dtd.  It is not aimed at folks that already know how things work.

While I was working on this post, I hooked up with some other folks, who have taken a break from 7dtd/left entirely because they couldn't figure things out, got seduced by the dark side of the force, and went on to play modded versions, and creative mode play, and are now basically done with the game, all because they never really 'got it'.  How many thousands of players have followed this same course?  Had I known then, what it has taken me 13 months to learn, I would have looked at getting this system into the games we were playing back then, as it would have made all the difference for new, struggling players to have some ingame directed help.

Is this idea a "Horrible Idea"?  No, it is in fact a "Great Idea", for what it is aimed at doing, and that is player retention, for those that just needed a bit more help.

The problem most folks are having is, they are not looking at this as something they (themselves) need, and looking at this idea from that point of view, it's true.  Most players on these forums like the game, because they have figured it out, and learned it.  What about all those former players out there, that never learned the game, and are actively telling their friends not to buy/bother with 7dtd, because, in their experience with this great game, they never figured it out, and so they tell their friends "it sucks", even though that impression is based upon their own bad experiences, and not anything about the actual game design itself?

I'm a very rare breed of gamer, I actually spend time trying to figure out how to make things better, for other gamers, who are going through the learning process for the first time, and stumbling over things that I myself figured out long ago.  How many folks, if they read this thread and understand what it is talking about, and who this is actually aimed at (new players, those that don't know how things work, yet), will come in here and say this idea is 'horrible'?  Obviously, there are the two that have so far done exactly that, but if we read those two posts, only one actually went into why they wouldn't use this idea, and it is plain that they are not looking at this post as trying to provide something that could be of value to new player/future players, but rather that, if applied to their own current understanding, it is useless (for them).

Those folks, the ones that I just talked to?

At first, the Husband and Wife thought the idea was bad, but when they actually took the time to think about it, they realised that it would have actually made things better for them, back when they were still willing to give 7dtd a try.

Keep in mind folks, for the game franchise, suffering a "Bleeding Wound", and hemorrhaging paying customers, because they never learned how the game worked, is not a good thing.  TFP cannot go back in time and fix things, but they can listen, think things through, and make changes, that make things better for future new players/paying customers.

How many folks that read through my initial post, went and looked at it from the perspective of what a new player would think of it?  Would it help new players, who just read everything, as they find it, have had a way to focus on making the most of their parties first 24 hours in game more successful by keeping two of the most critical books in the early game from being wasted?  If one doesn't look at an idea, from the right point of view, they often miss things.

 

[WarMongerian]

I chose "Never, let folks read any books they want..." but I don't mind the idea of there being an option to require an investment into a Perk to act as a gatekeeper. I could see how that would be handy in a casual group. Alas, I could also see where it might be a very low developer priority.

I like this post.  You give all of the forum community a clear response, and your thoughts behind it.  I hank you, and I think other, reading this thread, might want to as well, because of how your response actually is on topic, and deals with the proposed idea in a fair, open minded manner.  This is in clear contrast to some of the other responses.

For a group, I could see it preventing people from accidentally or intentionally reading a book. As a single player, absolutely not for me.

Yep.

This would never be something for use in a single player game, as there would really be no point.

When I came up with this idea, it was specifically for the games where, a group of new players wanted to learn how things worked, and wanted to try to focus their loot on making one person capable of reaching benchmarks, just asap.  3-5 folks, each reading all books is way less efficient, than one player getting and reading all the cooking books, until level 10 (Bacon and Eggs) is achieved and made available for the entire group.  A big step for sustainability/self-sufficiency for the group of new players.

 

[Roland]

I'll ask this, do all you folks play with strangers in your 7 days to die games?

I did in the early days but for the last several years I either play solo or with family and rl friends. I had some okay experiences in the past with strangers but plenty of poor to just meh experiences. In my mind, nothing beats the relationship building that this game engenders with people you already know and love. It is the best experience this game offers, imo, and I'm unwilling to settle for anything less.

Think of it like the movie Monsters Inc. The monsters scared kids for energy but then discovered making kids laugh paid off so much better and at the end of the movie all the scaring was replaced with laughter. That's the difference between playing the game with strangers vs loved ones for me.

 

[theFlu]

I don't really see such a limit being all that useful for new players. It just prevents you from reading books, not leaving them behind as useless or selling them..  you'd have to know to spec into thing X to read, so anyone who runs into the limit would just waste the next skill point to that. It kinda relies on people knowing how to play in a group And what to loot/leave and to manage several inventories while looting to have the space to carry books home etc etc.

It would have to be default on, which is ofc fine - you'd have to learn about it to disable it. But the defaults kinda represent "the way it's meant to be played - just easy" (bloodmoons on, spawning on, creative off etc), so such a setting would feel a little odd in that frame.

It'd be the first "hard" game mechanic to be setting'ed, everything else is basically percentages up or down, or complete disabling of features. Would probably need dynamic tooltips to reflect from settings (for magazines, skills and relevant error messages); that's not necessarily difficult, but it isn't a necessary capability atm, might not be all that easy with internationalization etc.

All in all, the "newb gain" seems miniscule for a redesign of a system that is meant to be turned off in your second game. Better served in the loading screen hints, "If you're grouped up, share your books to the people who need them!" (And ye, no-one reads..  )

 

[WarMongerian]

I did in the early days but for the last several years I either play solo or with family and rl friends. I had some okay experiences in the past with strangers but plenty of poor to just meh experiences. In my mind, nothing beats the relationship building that this game engenders with people you already know and love. It is the best experience this game offers, imo, and I'm unwilling to settle for anything less.

This is a great post.  It shows that @Roland is reading the thread, and understands what it is all about.

Looking at the poll results, at least as of now, 1644 hrs on Saturday, March 15th, 2025 no one who voted understood what it was they were voting on.  12 voters, all saying NO! to this threads idea, because they didn't understand what the intended use for this idea was.

 

[WarMongerian]

I don't really see such a limit being all that useful for new players. It just prevents you from reading books, not leaving them behind as useless or selling them..  you'd have to know to spec into thing X to read, so anyone who runs into the limit would just waste the next skill point to that. It kinda relies on people knowing how to play in a group And what to loot/leave and to manage several inventories while looting to have the space to carry books home etc etc.

It would have to be default on, which is ofc fine - you'd have to learn about it to disable it. But the defaults kinda represent "the way it's meant to be played - just easy" (bloodmoons on, spawning on, creative off etc), so such a setting would feel a little odd in that frame.

It'd be the first "hard" game mechanic to be setting'ed, everything else is basically percentages up or down, or complete disabling of features. Would probably need dynamic tooltips to reflect from settings (for magazines, skills and relevant error messages); that's not necessarily difficult, but it isn't a necessary capability atm, might not be all that easy with internationalization etc.

All in all, the "newb gain" seems miniscule for a redesign of a system that is meant to be turned off in your second game. Better served in the loading screen hints, "If you're grouped up, share your books to the people who need them!" (And ye, no-one reads..  )

Another great post by theFlu, thanks for taking the time and posting this.

I'm eating dinner atm, but afterwards, I'll do a proper response.  Thanks again.   

 

[YourMirror]

This is a great post.  It shows that @Roland is reading the thread, and understands what it is all about.

Looking at the poll results, at least as of now, 1644 hrs on Saturday, March 15th, 2025 no one who voted understood what it was they were voting on.  12 voters, all saying NO! to this threads idea, because they didn't understand what the intended use for this idea was.

So if the result is not what your answer would be, people don't understand? Why even put up a poll? You don't respect other peoples opinions anyways. If you re not with me you re dumb. Nice way of approaching things dude.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

This may sound like bs, but I would probably be one of, if not the most illiterate players in the game if there were lockgates

on being able to read. Definitely not a majority ideal, but it has constantly provided me with entertainment. I don't automatically

invest in anything but looting 2 , tracking 2, archery 2, and  cooking 1, in that order. Then I play till I die.

 

[zztong]

I'll ask this, do all you folks play with strangers in your 7 days to die games?

I used to play on a server. I'd love to play with others again. I took a different job and now can't regularly play. Another factor is I prefer a vanilla or vanilla-like server, and many servers I've tried feel like they've gone overboard on the mods.