PC Some constructive criticism (based on MM's newest video)

1) Zombies can't be looted. This was changed for performance reasons and to solve myriad duping exploits. Really, it comes down to a time saver. If the zombie has something it drops a bag and if it doesn't then it simply disappears. The benefits of this are as follows:+ No need to check bodies that mostly come up empty anyway. Any dropped bags are guaranteed to have loot.

+ No cleanup and better performance since everything disappears

+ No onscreen text tipping you off that they are really dead dead. This is a huge plus for me personally.
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I think some people aren't understanding that gore blocks were just one of those ideas that sounded good on paper, but just couldn't be worked out in reality. Sure, it's a little disappointing, but I think arrow recovery alone more than makes up for it. I respect the Pimps for being willing to try things out and discard when they just don't work out. Personally, there are only two gameplay changes that I really, really would like to see restored, and they predate A17 by a long shot.

  • Crawling/crouching through 1 meter openings. And yes, I think zombies should be able to also even if it means they get down, crawl, and stand back up when they can.
  • Disassembling bullets. I'd be happy if it was a perk you had to buy, even... but a point comes where you are overflowing on 9mm from loot. Brass is always so scarce..



just my $0.02

 
Personally I wish the starting bag inventory was reduced even more. You get so much storage in this game it's crazy.

The only real big question I have is can you harvest zombie bodies for bones/fat?

 
this is another reason why waiting a year between iterations is a bad idea (and it has been mentioned before), because when you are making changes, you have to wait a year for meaningful feedback, and if you have to back something out, you've wasted a lot of time. as a developer myself that's why i try to get feedback early on major changes, so i don't find myself 6 months or a year down the road and have to rip out the work i've done

working on a patch for a year then hoping for feedback after is setting yourself up for issues

 
Well, I guess with zombies no longer providing loot, one should start to focus building a base at bedrock level. Right, Roland? :p
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Sure. And the good news is faatal is making it fun again to do so just in the nick of time. ;-)

 
this is another reason why waiting a year between iterations is a bad idea (and it has been mentioned before), because when you are making changes, you have to wait a year for meaningful feedback, and if you have to back something out, you've wasted a lot of time. as a developer myself that's why i try to get feedback early on major changes, so i don't find myself 6 months or a year down the road and have to rip out the work i've done
working on a patch for a year then hoping for feedback after is setting yourself up for issues
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Ironically, it was the primary work that they did over the year that will make it possible for them to just change some values instead of needing to rip anything out if changes are warranted. The main coding changes have been to make it easier to change the game within the existing systems. This helps them and it helps the modders in exciting ways.

 
There are no gore blocks.
You kill zombie

Zombie falls to ground

Zombie disappears

That is all
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It's pretty lame how fast zombie disappear on the video tbh. Corpses should stay on the floor for a longer time. Would be cool to have a gradual putrefaction on zombie corpses, after 1 minute or so the zombie starts rotting, a couple different models and finally just bones then it disapears or something. I get it it's to save ram from storing model corpses but still, make it not be noticeable to the player, when he isn't looking at the corpse make it disappear, not just in front of you so fast.

 
It's pretty lame how fast zombie disappear on the video tbh. Corpses should stay on the floor for a longer time. Would be cool to have a gradual putrefaction on zombie corpses, after 1 minute or so the zombie starts rotting, a couple different models and finally just bones then it disapears or something. I get it it's to save ram from storing model corpses but still, make it not be noticeable to the player, when he isn't looking at the corpse make it disappear, not just in front of you so fast.
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If there are network performance problems, the corpses could at least stay there as static objects (no collision, no interaction) on the local client.

The loot-drops can be realized with the mentioned back-pack drops.

This way clients that have no performance problems could select the corpses to stay there for a longer time, rotting away slowly.

A low poly / low resultution texture static object should not have much impact on the performance after all.

 
It's pretty lame how fast zombie disappear on the video tbh. Corpses should stay on the floor for a longer time. Would be cool to have a gradual putrefaction on zombie corpses, after 1 minute or so the zombie starts rotting, a couple different models and finally just bones then it disapears or something. I get it it's to save ram from storing model corpses but still, make it not be noticeable to the player, when he isn't looking at the corpse make it disappear, not just in front of you so fast.
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There's this phenomenon among humans in which they stop listening when their brain starts thinking. (It's a little more complicated than that, but I'm trying to keep it simple.) When people saw the corpse disappear, their brains immediately started revolting against it. It is at that moment when they failed to hear MM say something to the effect of "we should fix that, maybe by increasing corpse damage."

They may not make the cool changes that you suggest for any number of reasons, but they already said that they plan to address your initial concern.

 
Just 2 questions..

1) now dead zombies will just disappears instantly? how a corpse will "vanish" in the final version (just to get the idea)?

just hoping not just *poof*.. maybe a little "animation" with worms or such?

2) how can we gather fat/meat/bones if zombies corpses are gone?

animals are not so common in general.. and fat/bones in particular are so important for many recipes!

thx a lot

 
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It's pretty lame how fast zombie disappear on the video tbh. Corpses should stay on the floor for a longer time. Would be cool to have a gradual putrefaction on zombie corpses, after 1 minute or so the zombie starts rotting, a couple different models and finally just bones then it disapears or something. I get it it's to save ram from storing model corpses but still, make it not be noticeable to the player, when he isn't looking at the corpse make it disappear, not just in front of you so fast.
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Perhaps despawn time can be changed so that if your computer can handle it you can make it so they stick around for a few minutes or longer. Maybe TFP plans to lengthen the time if results of experimental are favorable. You have to think of every new thing you see in a video for the first time as a baseline instead of the intended final version.

 
Have we all forgotten that even though A17 has not come out that there are usually changes with each Alpha Release?!? lol

 
+ No onscreen text tipping you off that they are really dead dead. This is a huge plus for me personally.
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If the zombies disappear on death, then you're tipped off even more by the fact that ~any~ prone zombie must in fact be a sleeper. And since the sleeper must awaken...well you know.

Disassembling bullets. I'd be happy if it was a perk you had to buy, even... but a point comes where you are overflowing on 9mm from loot. Brass is always so scarce..
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Yes, this was a good thing.

I was also partial to the flagstone walls you could build around A5? or so...the way they layered-up as you added more raw stone. Seemed relistic and looked really nice. It was quick and easy in a pinch.

-Morloc

 
Yes, nearly everyone who saw the video feels the same as you do. As do pretty much everyone who plays the game regularly. Will it get changed? Hard to say.
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i disagree. And I'm definatly not a casual player. The only things i dislike is that you cant see the number and that zombies dont give any loot. If this is the case we need more loot from other sources. If they didnt want the bodies or remains they could have just said that it gets destroyed or dropped or something...

*edit* he said that bosses drop something cool... maybe this could compensate for it... like a boss has chances for 1-8 items from a list (gun, tool, electrics and so on) and a chance for some ressources like brass (100-200 or something) this would make the small zombies annoying critters but the boss zombies extremly high priority targetsw... I like that idea.

everything else im totally fine with. Same with the new stamina/hp and inventory system.

 
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this is another reason why waiting a year between iterations is a bad idea (and it has been mentioned before), because when you are making changes, you have to wait a year for meaningful feedback, and if you have to back something out, you've wasted a lot of time. as a developer myself that's why i try to get feedback early on major changes, so i don't find myself 6 months or a year down the road and have to rip out the work i've done
working on a patch for a year then hoping for feedback after is setting yourself up for issues
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+1 million

they have been told, repeatedly, by other devs and very experienced people from the industry but they dont give a damn.

 
If the zombies disappear on death, then you're tipped off even more by the fact that ~any~ prone zombie must in fact be a sleeper. And since the sleeper must awaken...well you know.


Yes, this was a good thing.

I was also partial to the flagstone walls you could build around A5? or so...the way they layered-up as you added more raw stone. Seemed relistic and looked really nice. It was quick and easy in a pinch.

-Morloc
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Heh, I remember it taking me forever to figure out I had to make the frame with the string first! Loved those. Was nice to leave some various incomplete ones on the top of a wall for effect.

 
I posted my concern in another thread, but this one handled the questions a little better (by Roland).

I can understand removing gore blocks is better for performance, and dealing with despawning bodies is not an issue. I do not dwell on 'reasons' and stuff about how bodies should decompose. Its a game mechanic, and does not need explaining or embellishment. I do have a concern about the fact that the one thing that is mentioned the most is simply being ignored: Bones. I go through alot of duct tape. Animals wont cut it. I am already thinking that I will spend most of my first day of A17 inside the xml files. I am OK with no gore blocks, but I dont want to get robbed of my bones. So if bones were dropped frequently, that would be just fine.

I am also concerned with zed-type loot. Will we no longer be able to get a mining helmet from construction zombies? Anti-biotics from strippers? Hazmat from hazmat? Meds from nurses? Biker pants from bikers? In my opinion, these were the early game 'bosses' that were worth the risk to target.

The simple loot and combat, well thats a pill to swallow and new skills/strats to learn.

 
1) Zombies can't be looted. This was changed for performance reasons and to solve myriad duping exploits. Really, it comes down to a time saver. If the zombie has something it drops a bag and if it doesn't then it simply disappears. The benefits of this are as follows:+ No need to check bodies that mostly come up empty anyway. Any dropped bags are guaranteed to have loot.

+ No cleanup and better performance since everything disappears

+ No onscreen text tipping you off that they are really dead dead. This is a huge plus for me personally.
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I think it's a pity with the zombies not being able to be looted. At least make the body disappear in a supernatural mist animation then/dissolving, instead of vanishing in a glitch like manner.

Also, what happens if a zombie with loot dies on top of a container of loot from a previous zombie? Will it get destroyed or be lootable?

2) The backpack is only five slots smaller than you are used to (vanilla) in A16. You have 32 slots now and in A17 you will have 27 slots. If you spend all your points from the first tutorial quest which you can finish easily by 9am of the first day you can get your backpack slots up to 37 slots which is two more than you are used to in A16-- from DAY 1. It just depends on how you want to spend your points. It is entirely your choice. Pretty fair I'd say.
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I read that we'll have much less perk points in A17, so how much will we be gimping ourselves to go back to backpack size of A16? It's already quite tight with loot. I don't mind not being able to carry much, but I mind not being able to carry much in terms of variety. I would prefer a weight based backpack system.

- - - Updated - - -

Bag drops are just a probability number that could easily be changed. I'm sure they'll be listening to feedback during experimental. Currently they are extremely rare. But, the probability could easily be tweaked during experimental from one build to another. It's probably very easily moddable to where you could make it so that almost every zombie is dropping a bag if you wanted. But we'll have to wait until modders get their hands on it to see how easy it actually is.
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If it's super rare I guess we'll be missing the few times something actually does drop, as we'll quickly adapt a habit where we don't bother checking the ground tbh.

 
Also, what happens if a zombie with loot dies on top of a container of loot from a previous zombie? Will it get destroyed or be lootable?
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I'm imagining it like the zombies drop player-style backpacks, which do not take up a voxel position (and as such, wouldn't cause anything to be destroyed)

 
Roland has eased a lot of my concern when it comes to these mechanics. I'll wait to see a video showing the new skill system before I have an opinion (which even then wouldn't be my final opinion on the matter since as I've said multiple times I'm waiting until I actually play to give my final verdict on these mechanics) though one thing I did notice is that when MM leveled up in the video he only gained one skill point instead of five.

 
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