PC So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?
- Thread starter watzlp
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FileMachete
New member
My general take on "realistic" and "immersion" is basically this. Totally ok for game to be completely "un-realistic", but whatever they are doing, it -must- be self-consistent. If it isn't then it will break "immersion".
In the particular case of 7dtd, TFPs chose to model the base world on the real world. With the obvious exception of 'zombies'. Almost -everything- in game is a direct copy of a real world item. Ford Crown Vics, SWAT helmet, prior to a19s Steel Club and placeable turrets, every player weapon modeled a real world weapon.
The 'Stone Age' never fit well. For so many reasons I won't even bother to list them. When it lasted only a very short time, it was, 'eh, whatever'. Now that it can drag out to 21 days plus (I'm still using a stone axe day 22, because the q4 Iron axe I crafted wasn't better), it is painfully out of place. And breaking immersion for a lot more people than before.
Inexplicably (to me) there is a ready real world 'solution' that would fit the apparent desire to extend the early game that they've chosen to ignore. Cowboy tech.
Single action 6-shooters and lever action rifles, with somewhat realistic reload times. In an old time caliber, not .44 Mag and 30-30, maybe .36 Cal.
Say 6-8 seconds to reload the pistol & 9-12 for the rifle. Using both without a reload you'd have 14+ rounds, enough for a couple few low level zeds, any more and you'd need to run or melee due to reload times.
Radically different than a sub 2 second 9mm Pistol reload worth 20+ rounds (couple perk points and a mag extender).
Also solves the 'Factory Crate' immersion break, for Shotgun Messiah at least.
As to filling the toolbelt with these firearms, sure go ahead, have fun as you like, but 'progress' wise by the time you've looted enough to do that, ideally you're starting to loot the next Tier of weapons.
Compare this with the upcoming 'Pipe Guns'. Which would be more immersive for you?
I haven't lost sight that 7dtd is their game, their vision. Could be that out of the gate they simply couldn't afford or had the resources to better display that vision, and now they do, so they are.
Maybe their next game will be hardcore Steam Punk, or some other alternative reality.
But there have been all these years where 7dtd was almost entirely a post apocolytic real world, with zombies as the bad guys.
Shoehorning in an extended stone age just isn't a good fit.
In the particular case of 7dtd, TFPs chose to model the base world on the real world. With the obvious exception of 'zombies'. Almost -everything- in game is a direct copy of a real world item. Ford Crown Vics, SWAT helmet, prior to a19s Steel Club and placeable turrets, every player weapon modeled a real world weapon.
The 'Stone Age' never fit well. For so many reasons I won't even bother to list them. When it lasted only a very short time, it was, 'eh, whatever'. Now that it can drag out to 21 days plus (I'm still using a stone axe day 22, because the q4 Iron axe I crafted wasn't better), it is painfully out of place. And breaking immersion for a lot more people than before.
Inexplicably (to me) there is a ready real world 'solution' that would fit the apparent desire to extend the early game that they've chosen to ignore. Cowboy tech.
Single action 6-shooters and lever action rifles, with somewhat realistic reload times. In an old time caliber, not .44 Mag and 30-30, maybe .36 Cal.
Say 6-8 seconds to reload the pistol & 9-12 for the rifle. Using both without a reload you'd have 14+ rounds, enough for a couple few low level zeds, any more and you'd need to run or melee due to reload times.
Radically different than a sub 2 second 9mm Pistol reload worth 20+ rounds (couple perk points and a mag extender).
Also solves the 'Factory Crate' immersion break, for Shotgun Messiah at least.
As to filling the toolbelt with these firearms, sure go ahead, have fun as you like, but 'progress' wise by the time you've looted enough to do that, ideally you're starting to loot the next Tier of weapons.
Compare this with the upcoming 'Pipe Guns'. Which would be more immersive for you?
I haven't lost sight that 7dtd is their game, their vision. Could be that out of the gate they simply couldn't afford or had the resources to better display that vision, and now they do, so they are.
Maybe their next game will be hardcore Steam Punk, or some other alternative reality.
But there have been all these years where 7dtd was almost entirely a post apocolytic real world, with zombies as the bad guys.
Shoehorning in an extended stone age just isn't a good fit.
AtomicUs5000
New member
Very true. They really should work on maps being huge, and you start off in the middle of nowhere with nothing around for kilometers. This justifies relying on primitive techniques to survive and also makes it so that the note left for you makes more sense. When you spawn in and can see shelter, it belittles whatever the Duke was trying to do by leaving you somewhere.
What i never understood is why dont we for primitive tools actually use something what looks like makeshift items of a modern age?
I doubt anyone here in an apocalypse would start to sharpen bones or stones to create tools, its much more likely that you are going to sharpen a piece of random metal to get a knife or an axe.
Lets go in order for every primitive tool ingame:
Stone Axe: Probably the hardest one to make because most of us dont know how to make axe heads but heres the thing, you dont need an axe to chop wood. Replace this item with a primitive sword/machete aka a big sharpened sheet of metal embeded into a piece of wood and tadaaa! You now have a wood cutter item.
Makeshift axe: usage to cut wood and meat, made from wood and iron.
To fix the problem that i just removed the logical approach of using this item as an upgrade tool you can simply replace that function with small stones. Its literally the first thing comes to my mind if i dont have a hammer i just need a stone to nail stuff.
Small stones: usage to upgrade stuff added. Found lying around.
Bone knife: Like who came up with this idea, theres soo many stuff lying around whats dangerously sharp and you decide to go with a random bone of an animal? Replace this item with a piece of sharpened metal/glass on the end of a stick.
Makeshift knife: usage to fight and butcher, made from wood and iron.
Stone Shovel: I dont even know how would anybody make this thing. I dont think in any age of humanity anyone made a stone shovel because it doesnt make sense and probably is the most difficult item to make with minuscule gains to it. Replace this item with a wood showel because that thing actually exist and was used by our ancestors.
Wood Showel: Digging tool made from wood.
Now lets go for the weapons:
Wooden Club: Probably the only thing on this list what makes sense, you picked up a piece of big stick and whack things with it. No change needed.
Stone Sledge: While this weapon makes sense but its also in the category of items you wouldnt actually fit in an apocalypse. If i need a big sturdy whacker whats looks like a sledge hammer im probably going to get myself a piece of railway or some big @%$*#! iron piece and either drill into it or tape it to a pipe or such.
Either keep or replace it with an iron headed pipe in the case of the latter its the same tool but made from iron and pipes.
Stone Spear: Whats with the obsession that we all know how to precisely crackle stones to create sharp edges? Just tape a piece of iron on its top and done.
Replace with makeshift spear made from iron and wood.
Blunderbuss: Im not sure about anybody but i wouldnt try to make any kind of makeshift guns because one wrong move and your blunderbuss is a pipebomb. Also this weapon is not a primitive tool but actually one what needs forged iron to make from the scratch so i dont know why its even in that category.
Remove or replace it with an actual primitive ranged weapon.
FileMachete
New member
@Solomon indeed. And unfortunately it gets worse the more you consider things.
Taking just the visual clues, number of basically intact buildings, abandoned cars, what was barricaded, etc. The 'scene' isn't crystal clear but it does appear that a significant percentage of the populace evacuated. Caveat: though this could simply be due to limitations. TFPs might not have been able to represent that 95% of the people were eaten or turned (if that's even what happened).
Doesn't matter to this point though; consider just all kinds of modern knives. If the troubles have been going on for quite a while then you could imagine that most kitchen knives such as Chef, Carving, etc., those that were big & 'sharp', could all have been looted. Any decent 'hunting knife' would have been a real find. But would all of the Butter knives and just normal utensils get taken as well? There's only a tiny fraction of regular people left. Each pre-disaster dwelling would have had at least a half dozen or more knives of some sort. Even if there had been mass evacuations, who'd have taken everything in the utensils drawer? Most would have been lucky to remember to take food and a can opener.
For arguments sake lets say a lot of folks did evacuate. And everything they took with them made it out as well. How many took all their gardening tools? A lawn mowers blade would make a decent machete. It's even the right mild temper.
Not to mention a lawn mower engine makes a lot more sense for a cobbled together generator. Who would haul a several hundred pound V8 out of a Crown Vic to use as a genie? And every car has basic tools to swap a flat. Lug wrench for a club.
Anyway. I can totally get TFPs coming out of the gate as a small startup, focusing on laying down the broad strokes for their game, getting the big picture across and basic gameplay going against the zombies. And they've done an immense amount of work since then. With the vast majority of it fitting neatly into the initial premise.
But they're now on the home stretch to finishing. And there's a reason for a Polish leg on the last lap. We all make an extra effort before a first date, or an interview. Good salepeople always strive for a good first impression. 7dtds first impression isn't nearly as good as it could be. And while I certainly have no idea how much is due to not seeing the forest for the trees, or sentimentallity, or stubborness, it does seem like there's something impeding them from seeing or acknowledging that the beginning is in need of some attention.
Just so it's not misconstrued, I'm not saying to make crafting tedious, or that intial scarcity/struggle should disappear. And certainly not arguing that realism should trump gameplay. Just to take a few steps back and look at things with, as much as possible, 'fresh' eyes and minimal preconceptions. Look for things that don't fit the narrative the game itself is telling. It's a bit startling.
Taking just the visual clues, number of basically intact buildings, abandoned cars, what was barricaded, etc. The 'scene' isn't crystal clear but it does appear that a significant percentage of the populace evacuated. Caveat: though this could simply be due to limitations. TFPs might not have been able to represent that 95% of the people were eaten or turned (if that's even what happened).
Doesn't matter to this point though; consider just all kinds of modern knives. If the troubles have been going on for quite a while then you could imagine that most kitchen knives such as Chef, Carving, etc., those that were big & 'sharp', could all have been looted. Any decent 'hunting knife' would have been a real find. But would all of the Butter knives and just normal utensils get taken as well? There's only a tiny fraction of regular people left. Each pre-disaster dwelling would have had at least a half dozen or more knives of some sort. Even if there had been mass evacuations, who'd have taken everything in the utensils drawer? Most would have been lucky to remember to take food and a can opener.
For arguments sake lets say a lot of folks did evacuate. And everything they took with them made it out as well. How many took all their gardening tools? A lawn mowers blade would make a decent machete. It's even the right mild temper.
Not to mention a lawn mower engine makes a lot more sense for a cobbled together generator. Who would haul a several hundred pound V8 out of a Crown Vic to use as a genie? And every car has basic tools to swap a flat. Lug wrench for a club.
Anyway. I can totally get TFPs coming out of the gate as a small startup, focusing on laying down the broad strokes for their game, getting the big picture across and basic gameplay going against the zombies. And they've done an immense amount of work since then. With the vast majority of it fitting neatly into the initial premise.
But they're now on the home stretch to finishing. And there's a reason for a Polish leg on the last lap. We all make an extra effort before a first date, or an interview. Good salepeople always strive for a good first impression. 7dtds first impression isn't nearly as good as it could be. And while I certainly have no idea how much is due to not seeing the forest for the trees, or sentimentallity, or stubborness, it does seem like there's something impeding them from seeing or acknowledging that the beginning is in need of some attention.
Just so it's not misconstrued, I'm not saying to make crafting tedious, or that intial scarcity/struggle should disappear. And certainly not arguing that realism should trump gameplay. Just to take a few steps back and look at things with, as much as possible, 'fresh' eyes and minimal preconceptions. Look for things that don't fit the narrative the game itself is telling. It's a bit startling.
Reckis
New member
Not to mention that the style of "stone" weapons and tools that are depicted in the game require the ability to perform flint knapping, which if you have never done it is NOT an easy process. It takes a significant amount of practice and experience to learn where to strike, what "tools" to use to form the flint and how to get the shapes and edges that make such a stone tool useful.
beHypE
New member
My biggest gripe is how long it effectively lasts. 22 hours into our game with 125% exp and we're still mostly looting bad stuff (low level iron tools, the basic mods, etc). Granted, we don't find blunderblusses anymore, but we don't find good weapons/tools either. Still running 3 bicycles with 0 plans for minibike or better (not even one of the two needed, literally none). The tool tables are "unlocked" but it's not like suddenly you're finding all that juicy stuff. We're at gamestage ~65 or so and yeah, we don't feel like we advance much.
It's funny cause I remember heated debates about "we're not gonna implement that, it's a 2% feature; we need to focus on making content for those who play 10-20 hours". Well, this whole grindy progression feels like you need a 50 hour game if you want to enjoy 90% of what the game has to offer.
The worst thing is it's probably the first alpha since I started playing where I don't look forward to restarting at all. And usually, I'm quite the restart junkie; I often felt more excited about the prospect of restarting a new game than the thought of continuing a ~15h game. Right now I actually dread regoing through all the process. I guess stable release will be followed by a lot of mod releases and that's gonna be restart-worthy.
This is a classic example of a half-feature release that is actually detrimental (imo) until the rest of the feature is shipped (gamestaged biomes/POIs and whatever else is planned). And I honestly don't think a set of flintlock pistols/rifles will change much to the feel of grindy progression. You'll simply rock a weapon that you're specced into instead of the current blunderbuss, the rest will be the same.
It's funny cause I remember heated debates about "we're not gonna implement that, it's a 2% feature; we need to focus on making content for those who play 10-20 hours". Well, this whole grindy progression feels like you need a 50 hour game if you want to enjoy 90% of what the game has to offer.
The worst thing is it's probably the first alpha since I started playing where I don't look forward to restarting at all. And usually, I'm quite the restart junkie; I often felt more excited about the prospect of restarting a new game than the thought of continuing a ~15h game. Right now I actually dread regoing through all the process. I guess stable release will be followed by a lot of mod releases and that's gonna be restart-worthy.
This is a classic example of a half-feature release that is actually detrimental (imo) until the rest of the feature is shipped (gamestaged biomes/POIs and whatever else is planned). And I honestly don't think a set of flintlock pistols/rifles will change much to the feel of grindy progression. You'll simply rock a weapon that you're specced into instead of the current blunderbuss, the rest will be the same.
Shockingly I have to agree with Solomon this time 
. Immersion-wise the game could improve by just making the stone-age tools use iron instead of stones and look like it. The stone axe would still have to exist as a pure stone item to provide the initial bootstrap that allows you to get stone, wood, and metal at all.
At least for guns I think the pipe weapons are already a step in that direction. If we compare pipe guns with western tech (FileMachetes proposal), pipe guns win IMHO, because it makes sense that you can build them with scrap metal and duct tape, while historical guns have the same problem as the blunderbuss for justifying why they are there in such masses and how to build them easily. Pipe guns have no problems being in weapon shipment boxes and households as today we can order 3D printed guns on the internet.
. Immersion-wise the game could improve by just making the stone-age tools use iron instead of stones and look like it. The stone axe would still have to exist as a pure stone item to provide the initial bootstrap that allows you to get stone, wood, and metal at all.At least for guns I think the pipe weapons are already a step in that direction. If we compare pipe guns with western tech (FileMachetes proposal), pipe guns win IMHO, because it makes sense that you can build them with scrap metal and duct tape, while historical guns have the same problem as the blunderbuss for justifying why they are there in such masses and how to build them easily. Pipe guns have no problems being in weapon shipment boxes and households as today we can order 3D printed guns on the internet.
beHypE
New member
I've thought about doing that. But then you have other issues, such as powerleveling way too much early and also raising your gamestage very fast compared to the time spent looting. The "best" solution would be to mod the game to lower the gamestage requirements to unlocking the next stage (something like 6/31/71 instead of the current 11/51/91). Haven't checked if it's easily doable though.
Anyway this isn't so much about "fixing the issue by modding or changing the settings" as it is about Vanilla progression that 95% of the playerbase are gonna experience as is.
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Sure. But what can I say, I personally like the current progression speed, at least at the moment. Maybe I get burned out too eventually, who knows. Early and mid game I need so many mods to fill my armor slots and gun slots because now I get quality 6 (tier 0) weapons and armor relatively early. I need so much building material as well after I solved the food problem. I also still get a kick out of finding a q3 pistol if I only have a q2, so maybe I'm just easy to please.
What I would change though would be that crafting of high quality weapons is made to be a more evolutionary process. For example to craft a q5 weapon you first need a q4 weapon and about as many weapon parts as crafting the q4 weapon cost you. So you never would safe up weapon parts for a q5 weapon because crafting the q4 weapon would be a step in the process of crafting the q5 weapon.
Roland
Moderator
I’m playing a “no repairs” game so when I find a higher quality stone axe than I can craft I love it. Once it is used up I scrap it and have to downgrade until I find another one.
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Look, even @beHypE admitted that they understand this is a halfway feature that isn’t done yet. That sometimes happens during development. Nobody, leastwise the devs, wants the current progression to be the final product.
What’s the point of complaining if we already know this is temporary? Just to vent? Fine, if so. But I really doubt it is detrimental. If people really can’t stand it and can’t/won’t mod it then they will set it aside until the next update. We are constantly seeing the return of people who haven’t played since Alpha 15 or even further back. I just helped two people convert their kickstarter keys into Steam keys because that was the last time they played. People always seem to come back to at least check.
In this case, when they do, they’ll be able to go to the desert or wasteland or burnt forest biomes to find higher tier exciting loot early on and there will be a wider variety of primitive loot in the tables which will all make the game feel less linear than the current state.
Playing now gives you the cred to later say, “ I remember the days when you were stuck with stone shovels until level 22...”. Every iteration has its own personality and provides memories of different forms of the game. This too shall pass but it’s cool that we got to experience it. If not, shelve it for 6 months and then try it again.
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FileMachete
New member
That's an intriguing idea. Speed bumps being we currently can't craft lower than we've spec'd. MM kind of responded to this but as I recall he didn't definatedly state it would be changed, could be wrong. Another likely big one would be the large overlaps in stats. If they simply added a bit of scripting so that there was no way that a newly crafted higher quality item could wind up being worse than it's ingrediant then that'd work.
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On the Cowboy Tech bit, I was thinking of them as found items. Rational being that with so few normals left, and with all the firearms (don't forget we're in Arizona, so not only lots of Western culture fans, but probably enough modern stuff to arm a small nations military, heh) I'd expect that as survivors found 'better' guns they might stash their old ones around as fall backs or just toss them. Also, Ruger manufactures in AZ and they make a lot of single action revolvers.
As to the ability to make things from scratch, yeah, no question a single shot pipe gun would be far easier than pretty much anything but basic cannon & rough blunderbi. But we really don't want to even gaze into that rabbit hole. Other than the AK, nothing currently in game was designed with even the thought of mostly manual manufacture, while the cowboy stuff was. Yet even those leveraged steam powered lathes and drill press like machines for much of the gross work prior to the gunsmiths doing all the final fitting assembly and polish.
That's the best news I've heard in many days Roland, thanks for sharing it!
Even if I personally am reading it to mean (among other things) that stone axes damage to stone will be significantly increased. :biggrin1:
(if that turns out to be wrong I will 'roleplay' that TFPs saw the light and buffed our early friend and just ignore that magical little modlet humming away in the background)
Yes indeed. I took a tour at a National Park where part of it was about stone arrows and tools, and they had an area to give it a try. Even though I'm really good with my hands it was really difficult, and would take quite a while to become even passable at. No way would you be making and using stone arrowheads with all the sheet metal laying around.
In my home theres atleast 32 regular knifes, 10 decorative sword thingies (my father liked to collect these, they are sharp as hell) and atleast 10 regular weak knife what are barely sharp but function.
Unless someone loots this place to smelt stuff and trade it away i doubt anybody would take more than 1-2 knifes/swords.
True dat. If i would need to get myself a cutting tool from the ingame items what are shown, i could use one of those pieces of random metal nailed on doors to reinforce it.
Get a stone and start sharpening, it wont be great but would work.
ThanksShockingly I have to agree with Solomon this time
At least for guns I think the pipe weapons are already a step in that direction. If we compare pipe guns with western tech (FileMachetes proposal), pipe guns win IMHO, because it makes sense that you can build them with scrap metal and duct tape, while historical guns have the same problem as the blunderbuss for justifying why they are there in such masses and how to build them easily. Pipe guns have no problems being in weapon shipment boxes and households as today we can order 3D printed guns on the internet.
I think that the only stone tool what makes sense is the sledgehammer because lets be honest after reading again what i wrote for replacement i realized that i would probably sooner tape a big rock onto a pipe/stick than go for that big pieces of iron.
How about we shift the gathering ability to the stone sledgehammer? By doing this we could give the regular gathering function to it minus the butchering and for new players their goal would be to go and hammer a car or whatever metal to get iron and make early specialized tools.
This would also make sure that players learn early on that there are tools for every purpose and they should use the proper ones for that. The sledge would be avarage for mining and metals, bad for ground and wood so the tutorial could state that you need various equipment.
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Also on a sidenote, the blunderbuss is essentially a hand cannon. Why doesnt the game has a cannon projectile for it?
My question is: Why are stone tools/weapons even on par, if not better in a lot of cases, then their iron counterparts?
Even in just a pure game sense, its a bit off putting, and breaks the flow in this games quality system.
If a stone tool/weapon, beats an iron tool/weapon on any level, it removes any sense of excitement of finally finding, being able to craft, getting the funds up enough to buy, or receiving one from questing. "Cool! I got an Iron shovel! Finall..Oh.. I finally get to iron, but my stone tools are still better..Okay..". Thats the level of of excitement, this iteration of the quality system, has brought me atm.
There is a reason other similar types of games, make stone tools, weak sauce, compared to iron their versions.
And that is a consistent flow and expectations. Stone to get by until you get to iron, then steel, etc.,.
imo. A stone tool with a quality of anything, shouldn't be on par with its weakest iron counterpart.
Unless they want to introduce some form of magic to the game? At least then, it would be a little more consistent as to the why their quality system is the way it is, but not much.
Whoa! You have a stone ax of smashing q5! It was made by that mysterious master stone craftsmen, that imbued it with magical properties to make it stronger then a q1 basic Iron ax!
I don't really care much about the realism or game argument. I'm more about the consistency and expectations of the current quality system.
Even in just a pure game sense, its a bit off putting, and breaks the flow in this games quality system.
If a stone tool/weapon, beats an iron tool/weapon on any level, it removes any sense of excitement of finally finding, being able to craft, getting the funds up enough to buy, or receiving one from questing. "Cool! I got an Iron shovel! Finall..Oh.. I finally get to iron, but my stone tools are still better..Okay..". Thats the level of of excitement, this iteration of the quality system, has brought me atm.
There is a reason other similar types of games, make stone tools, weak sauce, compared to iron their versions.
And that is a consistent flow and expectations. Stone to get by until you get to iron, then steel, etc.,.
imo. A stone tool with a quality of anything, shouldn't be on par with its weakest iron counterpart.
Unless they want to introduce some form of magic to the game? At least then, it would be a little more consistent as to the why their quality system is the way it is, but not much.
Whoa! You have a stone ax of smashing q5! It was made by that mysterious master stone craftsmen, that imbued it with magical properties to make it stronger then a q1 basic Iron ax!
I don't really care much about the realism or game argument. I'm more about the consistency and expectations of the current quality system.
beHypE
New member
Totally agree with the above point. "Unlocking" the next age is just the beginning of the path to upgrading your gear. Sadly, once you finally unlock iron tools / steel tools, they are of no use for another decent chunk of time. From my experience, it starts getting better at Q3+ for iron tools, if you can sustain the stamina drain. But it's not a huge increase either way - and that is, with "filler mods". I suspect it's even harder to replace your Q6 iron pick with a Q3 steel pick if you have all the proper mods installed.
Maybe stone tools should be capped to Q3, iron tools to Q4 and steel tools+ Q6. It would make the progression more natural, while also providing way more room for number tinkering. With 3 tiers (and I'm dimissing the auger here) and 6 quality levels, that's 18 different "steps". And the Q6 -> Q1 transition is arguably never a good one, and it makes finding your first iron/steel tool a complete non-event.
One could also preach for the other obvious idea, which would be to simply remove Q1-Q2 iron/steel tools from the loot tables completely.
Maybe stone tools should be capped to Q3, iron tools to Q4 and steel tools+ Q6. It would make the progression more natural, while also providing way more room for number tinkering. With 3 tiers (and I'm dimissing the auger here) and 6 quality levels, that's 18 different "steps". And the Q6 -> Q1 transition is arguably never a good one, and it makes finding your first iron/steel tool a complete non-event.
One could also preach for the other obvious idea, which would be to simply remove Q1-Q2 iron/steel tools from the loot tables completely.
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Your "magic" argument is about realism.
But I agree that for gaming reasons the current system may need some adjustment. I think a q6 stone axe could be better than a q1 iron axe but then you should also on average find q1 iron axes earlier than q6 stone axes. And if not then the q1 iron axe must at least have the chance to be better than the q6 stone axe (because of random values). With weapons or armor that might be not as important since you get weapon or armor parts out of the q1, but the q1 iron tools seem totally useless
Nope. Its about consistency and expectations.
No different then expecting a fireball level 2 spell, to be more effective then a fireball lvl1 spell in a magic based game.
Or a laser blaster to be more effective then a 9mm pistol, in a scifi game.
Unless that is a realism "argument" as well
Depends. Your expectations for fireballs and laser blasters are derived from fiction (books or movies). But your expectations of stone tools vs. iron tools are derived from reality. And most games using stone and iron tools also derive their implementation of those tools from reality.Nope. Its about consistency and expectations.
No different then expecting a fireball level 2 spell, to be more effective then a fireball lvl1 spell in a magic based game.
Or a laser blaster to be more effective then a 9mm pistol, in a scifi game.
Unless that is a realism "argument" as well
By the way, it would be perfectly ok for a laser blaster to be only useful against robots and being very ineffective against humans (might even have been used that way in the game Might&Magic 6).
If someone wants an argument about realism, by the way, a crafter who made an iron axe the first time in his life might create a form so bad that the stone axe has a blade that looks more like a hammer. Such an iron axe might actually be worse for cutting a tree than a stone axe build by a really good survival specialist. I think I saw a clip by someone showing how it is done and his stone axe made in a day of work was quite good actually.