PC So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[Ripflex]

Getting stone tools and primative weapons in sealed crates does not make any sense for even being in there; they could at least provide components, gas, ammo or parts, or at least tier one iron tools and shoddy tier 1 weapons... this would make more sense.

As for comments of this making crafting weapons tools and armor meaniful... that's 100% incorrect considering you only can craft up to tier 5; I only rank my weapon and armor perks to get the other benefits, I NEVER craft them when I can find them... and I think that's the flaw in this current system.

Sofar playing solo Alpha 19 b173 I just find questing and looting boring, because I expect garbage until around 30th level, I was almost right, got a tier 4 pistol annnnd that's it.... you could imagine my excitment at 0 out of 10, I already can craft them...  I just feel no incentive or drive in what's in the next box, just do the bare minimum on the vender quests because their rewards are better.  And I have played the hardest settings in solo and group play.  Even my playmates just think the start of game play just stretched out tedium.  *yawn*

 

[Solomon]

Getting stone tools and primative weapons in sealed crates does not make any sense for even being in there; they could at least provide components, gas, ammo or parts, or at least tier one iron tools and shoddy tier 1 weapons... this would make more sense.

As for comments of this making crafting weapons tools and armor meaniful... that's 100% incorrect considering you only can craft up to tier 5; I only rank my weapon and armor perks to get the other benefits, I NEVER craft them when I can find them... and I think that's the flaw in this current system.

Sofar playing solo Alpha 19 b173 I just find questing and looting boring, because I expect garbage until around 30th level, I was almost right, got a tier 4 pistol annnnd that's it.... you could imagine my excitment at 0 out of 10, I already can craft them...  I just feel no incentive or drive in what's in the next box, just do the bare minimum on the vender quests because their rewards are better.  And I have played the hardest settings in solo and group play.  Even my playmates just think the start of game play just stretched out tedium.  *yawn*

You also cant really just go and use the commands to raise your gamestage because all loot is linear, if you start on day 1 and use tricks to raise gamestage to 200 (or whatever number) you are not going to just loot iron and steel items of varying quality but loot only the highest quality you can get.

Compared to this in A18 at gamestage 90 the loot is still random and finding a t6 item is a blessing while here at A19 its the norm.

 

[Demandred1957]

Exactly.  I also don't see people complaining when their character comes back to life after they die either.  Being unable to permanently die is one of the single most unrealistic things in the game.  Surely everyone complaining about realism deletes their save and starts again after every death .

I know I do. You should give it a try sometime.

I am in agreement that TFP have screwed early game looting to make it pointless. Way to go. The correct solution would have been to make ammo much more scarce but let us loot a pistol or double barrel or even tier 1 rifle here and there, to make it worth looting. I like the flavour of finding an early gun but have scarce ammo so it's purely for emergencies and to be used sparingly. As it is....already losing the will to play A19.

yeah ditto. I'm playing on pregen 01 and there is a crack a book and a shotgun messiah just down the street. passing on both of them because I don't want to get a bunch of paper for the crack a book, and a bunch of lvl 2-4 blunderbusses from the factory. I mean really, why bother, when you know it's going to be crap.. But but but loot candy...yeah whatever. it doesnt change things that much. Boring af now. only good thing is the town is rich with cb stone and cement. can't wait for them to nerf that too.

 

[Gideon]

Isn't it possible that other people have come along and done various things, including store things in objects and then lock those objects, in between the time of the character and the time of whatever ended the world?

 

[meganoth]

You also cant really just go and use the commands to raise your gamestage because all loot is linear, if you start on day 1 and use tricks to raise gamestage to 200 (or whatever number) you are not going to just loot iron and steel items of varying quality but loot only the highest quality you can get.

Compared to this in A18 at gamestage 90 the loot is still random and finding a t6 item is a blessing while here at A19 its the norm.

You should raise your gamestage multiplicator instead, it is fixed now at 1.2. If you want to speed up the game, just set it to 1.6 or 2.

Your assumption that you only find loot of the highest quality clashes with my experience in the game and clashes with other players complaining that they still find stone tools and blunderbusses much later in the game.

 

[uselessjunkaccount]

Nope, you wont tell a 5 year old to run away they are slow and have almost zero chance of survival. You hide them in a wall, container, anything to keep them safe and hope that you can fend off the dead.

That's my point. Run away - to go hide somewhere or to an adult. And that ignores the larger point that you aren't telling five year olds to run for the nearest stone spear to combat zombies, let alone leave them lying around to play with when things are quiet.

Anyway, I think there are arguments of realism there that can be made for people sealing stuff in wooden crates to keep them secure from small kids or looters or just long term storage in such a situation. But overall I don't think that this is a great argument to maintain the status quo anyway. Finding 2 stone spears, a stone sledgehammer and 3 stone arrows in a Shotgun Messiah crate on day 10 is really boring. So many things already don't make sense in this world anyway if you look closely enough even if we ignore that it's a zombie apocalypse. The town planning of these cities makes zero sense. Why was there a water treatment facility for like 50k people built in a town with maybe 500 residents? Why did everyone drive the same ugly car? So we should just ignore realism and readjust the loot tables with a little stone in the very beginning

 

[Ripflex]

Stop using the "If this is unrealistic then this is unrealistic to and zombies don't exist so game mechanics can be as unrealistic it wants blah blah".

Having stone tools and primitive weapons in sealed crates in a multimillion dollar gun factory is just weird.  Is all I was commenting about.  And I suggested for early gameplay, game mechanics wise, just have Weapon PARTS or componets for ammo be in those crates untill later level.  That ALL.  Please get off the realism train, and think more game mechanics and game progression.... it's what we are talking about.

And I still stand on looting early level just not exciting anymore because outside needed COMPONENTS to craft work stations a slightly, ever so slightly better tools to build a defense and keep from starving to death, there's no reward, it's not exciting, it's tedious.  I expect loot to be crap until 20+ levels and a decent gamestage... so why bother ?

It's almost like playing Skyrim where everything crappy and filler until you hit level 40 to get the good drops.

 

[Ralathar44]

Having stone tools and primitive weapons in sealed crates in a multimillion dollar gun factory is just weird. 

Why would the good stuff still be there?  Look at the world in game, significant time has passed...prolly years.  Wouldn't those places be the first places looted?  Realistically those should be the LAST places with great loot.  Those guns would be looted faster than toilet paper .
 

And I still stand on looting early level just not exciting anymore because outside needed COMPONENTS to craft work stations a slightly, ever so slightly better tools to build a defense and keep from starving to death, there's no reward, it's not exciting, it's tedious.  I expect loot to be crap until 20+ levels and a decent gamestage... so why bother ?

I think there is a core problem with your argument here.  Because there are many ways to solve your actual core complaint "I feel the early game is not engaging enough" OR "I don't feel there is enough progression in the early game".   But folks typically marry themselves to one solution for some reason.  Here are the baseline solutions off the top of my head I can think of: 

Solution 1:  Make the early game more engaging/rewarding within the existing primitive framework. 

Solution 2: Smooth out the leveling curve a bit so it's a faster transition from primitive, but still slower than before where you skipped 90% of the loot progression by day 14.  Sort of an in between then and now.  Loot scaling to gamestage but scaling faster so you can start progressing sooner...but still having a significant early game chunk.

Solution 3:  The solution being pursued by TFP.  Progression from primitive is slow, but if you are willing to tackle the risk you can face higher gamestage enemies to get higher gamestage loot.  Risk vs reward, but you have the option to speed up your progress at the cost of more risk.  TFP have this aimed at A20 IIRC, that way that weapons plant might be gamestage 114 even if you're at gamestage 14.  The tech just isn't in yet for that to be part of A19.  This is like how A18 basically came in and finished up A17 and that worked out EXTREMELY well for the game according to the player population and engagement numbers on steam charts.

Solution 4:  We revert to the way we were before where even modest scavenging skipped 90% of the gear progression curve by day 7/14.

 

[Solomon]

That's my point. Run away - to go hide somewhere or to an adult. And that ignores the larger point that you aren't telling five year olds to run for the nearest stone spear to combat zombies, let alone leave them lying around to play with when things are quiet.

Anyway, I think there are arguments of realism there that can be made for people sealing stuff in wooden crates to keep them secure from small kids or looters or just long term storage in such a situation. But overall I don't think that this is a great argument to maintain the status quo anyway. Finding 2 stone spears, a stone sledgehammer and 3 stone arrows in a Shotgun Messiah crate on day 10 is really boring. So many things already don't make sense in this world anyway if you look closely enough even if we ignore that it's a zombie apocalypse. The town planning of these cities makes zero sense. Why was there a water treatment facility for like 50k people built in a town with maybe 500 residents? Why did everyone drive the same ugly car? So we should just ignore realism and readjust the loot tables with a little stone in the very beginning

Suspension of disbelief applies to this game, we can kinda ignore things like the cars or the water treatment facility as most of us dont actually want the decs to create multiple car skins or are city builders to realize that it shouldnt be there, im kind of sure we would even ignore the stone tools in loot if they were in open crates marked "survivor cache".

Problems start to arise when something clashes too much within the gameplay that the player just point at it and says "wth is this?". Stone tools in their current form are like that.

I think the whole progression should work like this:

Stone age tools are practically tutorial items, these are the @%$*#! you are getting for the start of the game and you are supposed to ditch them as fast as possible, so heres my dream progression system:

• Really early game: Stone and Brass age
  

So the player starts out and gets itself some stones, wood and fibers and makes a stone axe to start crafting. They continue this as long as they learn to make a Forge or have enough materials for a Primitive Forge ( its a bunch of stone and clay cobbled together and can only make brass ).

Once they have somekind of forge they can collect brass to enter the next age (what historically also makes sense). They get their tools all replaced by brass tools, durability is still low but they got much faster and more efficient tools to work with

• Middle game: Iron and Steel Age
  

The player is running around with brass hammers and spears collecting whatever they need to advance into iron age. They make a forge and start smelting iron and steel, this is the longest period of the game with loads of different equipment.

• End game: Specialized equipment
  

At this stage the player most likely figured out what and how they like to play, at this stage i would like to see somekind of "engineers table" or "advanced forge" where you can make specialized items for your style.

If you are stealthy you could make a ghillie suit what decreases zombie detection range and makes no noise or if you liked to use bows you could craft advanced recurve or compound bows with much higher range and damage than their normal counterparts.

Essentially this is the stage where you specialize in what you like and you also need the upgrades from here because the game is getting more and more dangerous.

The whole point is that there is a craftable (with minor exceptions) only option, something whats lootable and craftable and finally something whats only lootable (with minor exceptions). Each stage uses up the game in a proper form, the first makes you believe that these are really only craftable and dont appear in loot, the second are both modern age and common so you can both make and find them, the last ones are specialized equipment what you can mostly only find in the shape of the whole item or blueprints.

Why would the good stuff still be there?  Look at the world in game, significant time has passed...prolly years.  Wouldn't those places be the first places looted?  Realistically those should be the LAST places with great loot.  Those guns would be looted faster than toilet paper .

-Hurry the @%$*#! up Joe, we got the guns what the hell you are doing back there?!

- Sorry Fred gotta seal back these crates with their original boxes.

 

[beHypE]

I don't think adding a "brass age" solves anything, just like adding flintlock pistols won't solve the issue of opening Shotgun Messiah crates and not being properly rewarded. Next thing you know you run a full set of brass tools and the same problem is there again, "why should I open another loot container to get another brass tool I already have" ?

In my opinion the only way to properly solve this is to MCGA (Make Crates Great Again). This also means that crates/reinforced iron chests must NOT be found at the end of every ezpz T1 dungeon, but should be rewards you get for clearing a higher gamestage POI only. You can't have it both ways : either those crates contain good loot and are rare and/or a high risk/high reward container, or you find them in every other broken house and they need to be @%$*#! in order to prevent people from being geared up in steel tools by Day 7.

This also means the stores should be a nightmare to clear, instead of being another easy POI with a dozen specific crates in them. If only you could solve this by making stores spawning in cities only and making cities (very) hard subbiomes...

 

[Solomon]

I don't think adding a "brass age" solves anything, just like adding flintlock pistols won't solve the issue of opening Shotgun Messiah crates and not being properly rewarded. Next thing you know you run a full set of brass tools and the same problem is there again, "why should I open another loot container to get another brass tool I already have" ?

I think i gotta edit that one there, i mean for the stone and brass age to be craftable only with only a few specific exceptions what you can kinda find around normally like a small brass knife or letter cutter as we call them.

In my opinion the only way to properly solve this is to MCGA (Make Crates Great Again). This also means that crates/reinforced iron chests must NOT be found at the end of every ezpz T1 dungeon, but should be rewards you get for clearing a higher gamestage POI only. You can't have it both ways : either those crates contain good loot and are rare and/or a high risk/high reward container, or you find them in every other broken house and they need to be @%$*#! in order to prevent people from being geared up in steel tools by Day 7.

I also agree on that one, i can always imagine finding a pistol or hunting rifle in specific houses but not an AK. I can always expect to find brass and tools in a plumber store and soo on.

I dont mind if i can no longer find easy to get weapon safes and such as long as it fits the area, like the only place where i can actually believe to see stone spears would be a museum poi.

Make it random but modify the chances that if i want masses of military weapons i gotta find a military base and such, like why the hell do fire stations have gunsafes?

 

[Stranded_Napkin]

Another "realism" thread complaining they arent fully kitted out on day 1.. Move along everyone.

Dude, I'm on day 7 and have only now found a level 1 iron pick. F*** off with your "games don't have to be real" bullsh**. There's realistic, not that realistic, and then there's bullsh*t unrealistic. This game goes out of its way to ensure you don't get anything good. Nothing but blunderbusses in any safe? I'm an actual gun owner and the only thing a blunderbuss is good for is being used as a paperweight. They are even less useful in game. I've seriously only got 1 kill with the thing and it's only because I got the head crit. Games don't have to be realistic, but they do have to be fun. The grind is being forced so damn much it's getting difficult to find the fun in it. Food is almost as useless as it was in A17 early experimental as you eat more in game than the 800 lbs man did in real life just to survive the day without fatigue and a random concussion. Then if you increase the difficulty to Nomad or beyond, they scale it for guns and don't give you any. In my first 7 days in Adventurer I've been mauled by a dire wolf, 2 wolves, and a freaking bear. Yeah, to some degree that is "realistic" but even you have to agree that that isn't fun. 

People don't expect to be fully "kitted out" on day 1, but they do expect to have something before day 7.

 

[Stranded_Napkin]

Stone age tools are practically tutorial items, these are the @%$*#! you are getting for the start of the game and you are supposed to ditch them as fast as possible, so heres my dream progression system:

Yes, they kinda are tutorial items. How does it make sense then that you are still stuck with them until day 7? It's one thing to limit gun use early game by limiting ammo. It's another to absolutely stop them from dropping. Tools don't have that kind of mechanic, but if we are to consider stone tools as tutorial items, why should they stick around far longer than any other game keeps their tutorial items?

 

[Solomon]

Dude, I'm on day 7 and have only now found a level 1 iron pick. F*** off with your "games don't have to be real" bullsh**. There's realistic, not that realistic, and then there's bullsh*t unrealistic. This game goes out of its way to ensure you don't get anything good. Nothing but blunderbusses in any safe? I'm an actual gun owner and the only thing a blunderbuss is good for is being used as a paperweight. They are even less useful in game. I've seriously only got 1 kill with the thing and it's only because I got the head crit. Games don't have to be realistic, but they do have to be fun. The grind is being forced so damn much it's getting difficult to find the fun in it. Food is almost as useless as it was in A17 early experimental as you eat more in game than the 800 lbs man did in real life just to survive the day without fatigue and a random concussion. Then if you increase the difficulty to Nomad or beyond, they scale it for guns and don't give you any. In my first 7 days in Adventurer I've been mauled by a dire wolf, 2 wolves, and a freaking bear. Yeah, to some degree that is "realistic" but even you have to agree that that isn't fun. 

People don't expect to be fully "kitted out" on day 1, but they do expect to have something before day 7.

Well said, the whole change is nothing but artifical slowing down of the players.

Its highly unrealistic, break immersion and lets be honest these are tutorial items they shouldnt even be considered as possible loot.

 

[Jugginator]

Dude, I'm on day 7 and have only now found a level 1 iron pick. F*** off with your "games don't have to be real" bullsh**. There's realistic, not that realistic, and then there's bullsh*t unrealistic. This game goes out of its way to ensure you don't get anything good. Nothing but blunderbusses in any safe? I'm an actual gun owner and the only thing a blunderbuss is good for is being used as a paperweight. They are even less useful in game. I've seriously only got 1 kill with the thing and it's only because I got the head crit.

Idk what you're on about, I use the blunderbuss on warrior/survivalist and insane and it works well; I even use it on the 1st and 2nd horde night as supplement to bow/arrow and whatever gun I found on that run.

 

[Gr.o.m.]

I would always prefer games who ignore "realism" to create a better game play.

Whats a game worth that is realistic and imersive, but is grossly unbalanced and makes no fun.

 

[JCrook1028]

Dude, I'm on day 7 and have only now found a level 1 iron pick. F*** off with your "games don't have to be real" bullsh**. There's realistic, not that realistic, and then there's bullsh*t unrealistic. This game goes out of its way to ensure you don't get anything good. Nothing but blunderbusses in any safe? I'm an actual gun owner and the only thing a blunderbuss is good for is being used as a paperweight. They are even less useful in game. I've seriously only got 1 kill with the thing and it's only because I got the head crit. Games don't have to be realistic, but they do have to be fun. The grind is being forced so damn much it's getting difficult to find the fun in it. Food is almost as useless as it was in A17 early experimental as you eat more in game than the 800 lbs man did in real life just to survive the day without fatigue and a random concussion. Then if you increase the difficulty to Nomad or beyond, they scale it for guns and don't give you any. In my first 7 days in Adventurer I've been mauled by a dire wolf, 2 wolves, and a freaking bear. Yeah, to some degree that is "realistic" but even you have to agree that that isn't fun. 

People don't expect to be fully "kitted out" on day 1, but they do expect to have something before day 7.

Um, no. Default WAS nomad, now it is dropped to Adventurer. Raising it is your own decision.

 

[Xtrakicking]

I would always prefer games who ignore "realism" to create a better game play.

Whats a game worth that is realistic and imersive, but is grossly unbalanced and makes no fun.

I prefer games that are both immersive and have good gameplay.

 

[Gr.o.m.]

I prefer games that are both immersive and have good gameplay.

Agreed!

But realism is not emmersive. Espacially if ppl start arguing how zombies are displayed realistic. Or other things, like what kind of caliber you feed into what kind of weapon.

 

[Stranded_Napkin]

Um, no. Default WAS nomad, now it is dropped to Adventurer. Raising it is your own decision.

You did catch the part where I said "in Adventurer" right? I didn't say Nomad was still default. Nobody said Nomad was still default.