PC Smart vs Dumb Zombies?

Smart vs Dumb Zombies?

  • The zombie behavior of pre-A17

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The zombie behavior of post-A17

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
Quote Originally Posted by Roland View PostGood AI knows everything and all optimal paths and choices but then is limited in choosing the best path through obfuscation
Click to expand...
What? _No_. Good NPC AI has the information its agent would have and does what its agent would do with it. The metric is, how fun (it's a game) is it to go up against the agent.
Click to expand...
Well yes andno.

Good A.I. needs to know everything and descide which information the "agent", as you say, would know.

This way they can sometimes "cheat" inunnoticable ways to make the experience better.

So a zombie could "randomly" hit a weaker part of the defense. He could "randomly" spawn in a way where he might have an easier time to get you. He might "randomly" group up with zombies or hit supports or or or.

The more the A.I. knows, the better the end experience (if balanced well).

For example "shuffle" options in mp3/mobile phones at their introduction featured "true" randomness and people complained, that certain songs were always played or that they would see patterns where there were none. So now shuffle keeps in mind when a song was last played, how often you manually listened to it, which songs you mostly skip and more and descides based on those variables.

Currently, they know enough, but aren't tweeked at all (or close to it). Which is why they are too smart.

But they find small openings in the ground to underground bases, which is nice.

 
yes I know they want a black and white answer but they are asking the wrong question! it should be what type of zombie AI do you want! my answer was both. Just because we have never had it doesn't mean its not worth getting or trying why we are in Alpha mode.
Click to expand...
A fair point. From my perspective, I want the zombies to act believably. They should not have xray vision, hands made of jackhammers and have intimate structural knowledge that would otherwise set them up as a very well paid construction engineer. I want dumb shamblers that can be led into traps and blind corners, that fall into pits. Stuff that makes building a fort enjoyable. If there was some way to take the A17 pathing algorithm and loosen it up so that zombies still feel believably like dumb shamblers while still being able to find paths to players in hard to reach places then I would be happy. Maybe a really dumb algorithm would allow them to make the hordes bigger?

 
I voted for current. As a starting place it is vastly superior and I have confidence that faatal can really make it shine. All it really needs is some random behaviors added in and a bit more obfuscation that the zombies always know the ideal pathway to your location.
Click to expand...
Yes, a zombie should wander into the right path; seemingly accidentally and then other zombies will notice the boon of the 'smarter' zombie and start to follow. It is almost like watching a stream form during a heavy rainfall. Water will seemingly scatter until it finds a common path (in this case due to gravity) and then form a stream around a common path eventually.

 
Voted PreA17 which is what I would call the smart zombies. A17 they are just way to predictable which makes them easy to manipulate and kill.
Click to expand...
To this point, Making them too "smart" has actually made them dumb in that they are 99% predictable.

We may be working against the current laws of physics and current h/w capabilities... Meaning:

Every 'real-time' game with an AI ends up leveraging the fact the CPU is a master aimbot and knows where the player is at all times.

In order to layer enough algorithms to outsmart a human, one would need more than the one or two game ticks they have to process the next action of the AI every game tick or so. So the fact that the game ticks go faster than an AI can actually process, FPS games end up with dumb AI's that merely use aimbot skills to increase difficulty. When you play a turned base game like Chess, with max difficulty, the CPU can take up to a minute (used to be a lot longer) to make a move.

The AIs beating people at GO are more than just some little INtel/AMD laptop with a NVidia in them.

So hack away at the AI all you want, you will run into performance issue before you get a zombie AI to outsmart humans (since Zombies don't carry ranged weapons)

Zombie games typically have gone for the opposite approach, which is to increase the number of enemies to a crazy level and not try to have any sort of complex AI system. The problem here is you are running into performance issues with the number of Models you are displaying. This makes a zombie horde a big performance hit when you are trying to use dozens of different models. That is why you guys tried UMA zombies for awhile, so a big horde would still be diverse. That also caused performance issues for other reasons.

So we go in a circle and no one is ever happy... We need to innovate here.

 
I think this is a disingenuous poll. Pre-A17 means what? A16? At any point? The AI was objectively broken in A16. Broken as in it didn't work at all. I don't want that. I also don't want the zeds to be structural engineers. Though it would be neat if say the construction worker zombies did something like this, while the others did not.

I want functional zombie AI that doesn't break immersion. Where's that option?

 
On a slightly unrelated note from all this, I want zombies to trip, stumble, and fall over stuff.
If a zombie runs off a cliff, I want it to faceplant.
Click to expand...
This so much, very immersive!

 
Overall I like the new AI.

Like, even in maze-like POIs if they fall through the foor or something they'll find their way back up to you, it just makes POIs more dangerous and it's pretty awesome.

However I agree that for base defense they need to be way more random and "zombie-like". Not all of them going for the same spot, not actively avoiding traps etc..

 
Last edited by a moderator:
17 - every zombie during horde is a sapper, can spawn close as 10 blocks away? (not a fan) Needs to be 50 away like previous versions. Everyone getting a horde is fine but in 14 specifically 14.7 a huge horde coming was a blast. Now its just 8 or so at a time, when it works properly. Also zombies that come from all directions is a better idea, not just one specific spawn point or points just like a screamer horde.

Zombie ai in the buildings is fine/out in the world however there needs to be ALOT more out in the world not just only sleepers :(

Really miss the random running horde during the day time that would go after a random player, once or twice a day. Always kept you on your toes like in 15

 
Its easier to make a good ai (mostly pathfinding and path following are the topic here) worse when needed, than to make a bad ai good when needed.

So from a development standpoint, the current situation is way more comfortable.

For the pathing: introducing randomness would help making the zombies act more unpredictable.

More precise: the optimal path should randomly get higher costs at choke points (path-point with player edited blocks beneath and on the sides, eg corridors): this would make the pathfinding look for alternative routes.

Also, position on the path where the zombies suddenly "loose" the calculated path (falling down a trap) or where several died before should also get a higher cost at that points voxel-position. The zombie crowd following would then look for an alternative path, (unless its really the only one.)

Having different zombies have different cost-calculations would also make a group of them more unpredictable.

Also: crowd of dumb zombies (entertaining) would be more scary, if only one of them COULD use the current optimal pathfinding. The player would never be sure if cheezing them is safe.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm guessing people who voted for A17 zombies are those who can't be bothered building a base and who enjoy exploiting the AI. There is no other explanation. I mean it takes about 20 blocks and 5 ramps to completely cheese the A17 AI to the point that not one single block of your base will be attacked. How in the name of Satan's portion is that good?

Horde night is crap now, when it used to be the game's highlight. Your choice is cheese the AI and your base takes zero damage, OR build a proper base and try fighting them normally - and have the most BORING experience imaginable as they all troop over to the first gap made in your defences and conga-line in like obedient little sheep.

YAWN

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If this poll was going to be used to help work out what AI to go forward with well short or even long term, honestly its the wrong question. The AI needs to challenge the players, sometimes that means not giving them everything they want. I would go with the AI that can be changed, adjusted and is better for the servers and will allow for variations running at the same time. I honestly think you are going to need variation from the AI and the zombies, All of them doing the same thing is going to make it to easy to exploit. For me I don't like the idea that they are so smart doesn't make sense, however that doesn't mean you cant have the odd one doing this, Why variation is going to be the key. I like the Vulture AI difference and we need more of that why I suggested the instinctive behaviour for each type of zombie, add some dumb zombies and it will make it very hard to cheese them. Sometimes asking the wrong question gets you the right answer which is both or a variation of it.

 
I have played a few 7 day hordes now, and its just the same over and over. Even when i'm trying different builds it just leads to the same result. Get the zombies into a tight corridor to lay down fire because they will always, everytime, do the same path and ignore most of your base. 99% of your base is ignored so dont bother with traps. Just use some barbed wire if you are reloading a little slowly.

This is boring and has sucked out most of the fun/fear for me, go back to A16 but increase spawns. A huge rush of of dumb zombies attacking my base from all sides was more fun than a small stream of zombies pathing directly towards me in the same line. You can survive a 7 day horde now without even having to move your mouse, and just wait for all the heads to line up with your sight.

Exploiting the Ai into a Kill-Path in A17 seems to be the ONLY way to build, even if you dont want to build that way, because the honest gamer inside of you absolutely detests having to do this.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Zombie games typically have gone for the opposite approach, which is to increase the number of enemies to a crazy level and not try to have any sort of complex AI system. The problem here is you are running into performance issues with the number of Models you are displaying. This makes a zombie horde a big performance hit when you are trying to use dozens of different models. That is why you guys tried UMA zombies for awhile, so a big horde would still be diverse. That also caused performance issues for other reasons
Click to expand...
I'd be fine with just 3 or 4 models if it meant having large hordes. Cut out the fancy AI, reduce the poly counts but fill the world with teeming legions of dumb shamblers slowly and inexorably closing on your position at all times. Every step should make me fear drawing the horde.

 
I'd be fine with just 3 or 4 models if it meant having large hordes. Cut out the fancy AI, reduce the poly counts but fill the world with teeming legions of dumb shamblers slowly and inexorably closing on your position at all times. Every step should make me fear drawing the horde.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I could even live with a single "generic Zombie" if it meant I could turn a corner in a city and see a thousand of 'em shambling their way towards me.

 
I think this is a disingenuous poll. Pre-A17 means what? A16? At any point? The AI was objectively broken in A16. Broken as in it didn't work at all. I don't want that. I also don't want the zeds to be structural engineers. Though it would be neat if say the construction worker zombies did something like this, while the others did not.
I want functional zombie AI that doesn't break immersion. Where's that option?
Click to expand...
One of your fellow forum users asked me to make a poll to see if people liked the zombies from before A17 better than the zombies of A17. I obliged because I’m nice like that.

Nobody at TFP devised this poll to trick anyone into anything and this poll will not guide future development. It is a discussion starter and nothing more.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you for the thread Roland. It’s good to see people discuss stuff like this :)

- - - Updated - - -

I want the zombies to be smarter like in a17 but even more so. A16 got boring during horde night. The problem, which I know is being worked on, is that it’s impossible to melee day 7 (the first day 7) with how stam works right now (with zombies faster than walk)

 
I think it needs to be somewhere in between the two. The fact that they actually come to the source of a sound again now is nice, the fact that they completely path around all traps and obstacles and only attack one spot on your base, not because you are standing on the other side, but because they've calculated all the blocks and know it's the weakest spot, isn't.

Things that, in my opinion could make the zombies a lot better.

1. Reintroduce the mechanic where a zombie hunts or senses you that it hisses and alerts other nearby zombies.

2. Find a way to drastically increase zombie counts and balance it out by making them less of damage sponges

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's all about blood moons.

I think Alpha 15 zombies were perfect. Some pathing, nothing too crazy, but not getting stuck like in A16.

A17 blood moons enforce "cheese meta" too much, takes me out of the game. Imagine if in an rpg game enemies would choose to do massive attacks of fire/cold/lighting based on what resistance was the lowest on your character and they wouldn't attack at all if all resistances were at 0, and you would have to cheese the mechanic to survive by not having any resistances on your gear. Current A17 blood moon pathing feels game breaking like that.

Zombies need to be a bit more random, to avoid converging on a single block. They also need to be more direct, just enough to walk around minor obstacles, but avoiding doing long detours.

If player is above the ground on a safe platform, then start hitting closest supporting block. Not the one that is weakest, not the one that is brings the structure down, the one that is closest.

Good things about A17 zombies is that they dig and spiders jump far. Digging is very a creepy zombie behavior and it should stay.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top