If level gating and spam crafting removal were so much hated, wouldn't there exist a very popular mod that changed A16 to that? At least for those players that can actually install a mod?
PC Should mods be removable? Pros and Cons.
- Thread starter Roland
- Start date
Katitof
New member
I would say go with the "classic" solution.
Realism aside, because you'll never have realism and balance so:
If you want to recover the mods, weapon gets destroyed in the process.
If you want to recover the weapon, all mods are destroyed in the process.
That is with the assumption that weapons and mods are going to be as common as currently guns and parts are.
If they weren't, then we'd end up with massive stocks on weapons we will never need.
Realism aside, because you'll never have realism and balance so:
If you want to recover the mods, weapon gets destroyed in the process.
If you want to recover the weapon, all mods are destroyed in the process.
That is with the assumption that weapons and mods are going to be as common as currently guns and parts are.
If they weren't, then we'd end up with massive stocks on weapons we will never need.
Roland
Community Moderator
Really? I thought xp for crafting was simply commented out or the xp gain set to zero or such a miniscule number it might as well be zero or something like that. I do remember people talking about how everything to bring back spamcrafting was still all in there. But I'm no modder...
Roland
Community Moderator
Why not? That's what it is. They could easily change the name from "Creative Mode" to "Sandbox Mode". Then it would definitively satisfy the tags.
Devs were just discussing it last week. They definitely plan to bring back horde mode.
It spiked to 32000 which was the highest in the history of the game and then maintained at a level of close to 20,000 for the 7 months following. You showed me this past week (10 months later) and are giving that as compelling proof that people quit right after it was released because of spam crafting was cut and they tried it and didn't like it.
I'm not giving the 7 months of close to 20000 people as proof of anything other than that A16 had pretty good staying power. Recently, burnout and A16 fatigue has taken its toll obviously but nobody can point to those charts and say "removing spam crafting harmed the game" and be credible.
Faded
New member
And I have a long running A10 game that is 3 years old now that I tend to switch to when it's time to wait for the next Alpha release. However, I can't use the minibike, or electricity, or any of the new blocks. The good part of the Alpha progress is that endgame content is getting added, although, it seems to keep coming bundled with changes that delay the early game for some reason.
I'm of the distinct impression that most players start one or two games once a new build goes stable, and stick to that small game set for the life of the build without restarting a whole lot.
Also, you have to keep in mind that each new build brings new players into the game. With the activities of the stream team, I have no doubt players that never experienced the early builds came on board and praised the game, not knowing its history and how it used to play.
I restart frequently enough due to various reasons that the excessive gating is a great deal more annoying than it otherwise would be, particularly because I'm not a fan of the primitive stage of the game. To paraphrase my favorite forum post here of all time, I'm playing to fight large hordes with endgame weapons, not to kite two zombies with both hands tied behind my back.
The loss of spamcrafting is much less annoying than the excessive gating that was implemented. We don't need both player level and skill level gating, for example. If you try playing without level gating, you'll find the only difference in progression is that it happens faster; all the "curves" are still intact.
Disclaimer: I understand this is a contentious topic and this part of my reply might well be bordering on violation of the "doom-and-gloom" rule. That is not my intention, so please correct me immediately if you feel I get too close to the line.
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My link showed you the last year of population, which extends all the way back to A15. You can see the "pre-hype" deadzone that A16 generated, the spike that it experienced as it approached and went to experimental, and then the dropoff that always occurs after a build goes stable. If you adjust the date ranges using the filter in the upper right, you can see the spike even more clearly:
https://imgur.com/a/jRrbK
Notice how the spike happened as folks were playing experimental and seeing how the new build worked. Then, all through July, the population fell sharply.
While it is normal for the population to decline over time as a build ages, it is normally a very gradual decline. I don't think it's inconceivable that some of the changes were not so well received.
SylenThunder
Community Moderator / IT Guru
Technically, it would be pretty easy to add back in. It would require some modification of several files though. Though easy to do, it does require a lot of work editing blocks.xml, items.xml, recipes.xml, and progression.xml.
It's most likely due to the work involved in performing this that no one who really cared followed through and did it. I considered doing it just to placate some people, but then decided it wasn't worth spending my time on.
I do a lot of restarts as well, and haven't really found the current system to be all that cumbersome. Maybe if you're playing Dead-is-Dead a lot, but even when I am doing that it's not terrible since it's pretty easy to earn exp.
Anyhow, we're getting off topic here again with the grind-gate or spam-gate or whatever you want to call it.
Roland
Community Moderator
@Faded: I guess I read it wrong. Sorry about that. You did show the past year. I don't think the drop off is as tail spinny as you think it is. The sharp spike and immediate drop off is pretty typical but as I said, A16 maintained a close to 20,000 level for 7 months after the initial spike and drop. No alpha has ever maintained at the initial spike.
I concede that the drop from 32,000 to 20,000 after the experimental could have been because of no more crafting xp and the level gating but it's impossible to tell and the pattern is too similar to past releases that did not have those dynamics. <shrug>
I concede that the drop from 32,000 to 20,000 after the experimental could have been because of no more crafting xp and the level gating but it's impossible to tell and the pattern is too similar to past releases that did not have those dynamics. <shrug>
RavenGT
New member
To the original question: As some have already said, it really depends on the modification.
If it's a legitimate attachment such as a scope, suppressor, bipod- whatever, it should be removable without penalty. Seriously, if you can't remove a scope without breaking it, you should probably not be handling firearms in general, so this 'rule' only makes sense to me.
If it's an actual enhancement to the inner-workings of a firearm, such as changing the internals of the 9mm pistol to allow selective fire (full auto instead of semiauto only), this should be considered a one-time upgrade and not reversible... Unless you're allowing for parts kits to be swapped out in which case it can get granular (ie, a parts kit for the .44 will NOT work with the AK) but can still be undone, as in you swap out the "automatic parts kit" with "semi auto parts kit". More or less still realistic with the real world.
Again, my point is that saying that you'd break a suppressor by taking it off is absurd. No, it's really not going to happen in any meaningful way because most people can screw a screw, and a lot of suppressors are that simple.
As has been said before, perhaps as your firearms skills increase, so do your abilities to work with enhancements like full auto conversions, longer barrels, shortened barrels, etc. Maybe low-level skills would translate to a scope being not quite sighted in, etc.?
Ok, done rambling
Are we there yet?
If it's a legitimate attachment such as a scope, suppressor, bipod- whatever, it should be removable without penalty. Seriously, if you can't remove a scope without breaking it, you should probably not be handling firearms in general, so this 'rule' only makes sense to me.
If it's an actual enhancement to the inner-workings of a firearm, such as changing the internals of the 9mm pistol to allow selective fire (full auto instead of semiauto only), this should be considered a one-time upgrade and not reversible... Unless you're allowing for parts kits to be swapped out in which case it can get granular (ie, a parts kit for the .44 will NOT work with the AK) but can still be undone, as in you swap out the "automatic parts kit" with "semi auto parts kit". More or less still realistic with the real world.
Again, my point is that saying that you'd break a suppressor by taking it off is absurd. No, it's really not going to happen in any meaningful way because most people can screw a screw, and a lot of suppressors are that simple.
As has been said before, perhaps as your firearms skills increase, so do your abilities to work with enhancements like full auto conversions, longer barrels, shortened barrels, etc. Maybe low-level skills would translate to a scope being not quite sighted in, etc.?
Ok, done rambling
Are we there yet?
I have not been talking about people praising A16 or relative size of people praising and not praising A16. I'm just looking at the group of people who didn't like the two changes. If that group were big enough there should be (statistically) some modders in that group. If it were important enough to them at least a few should have made mods to bring it back. Not everyone of those modders, sure, but some. And that should then be a popular mod among the "oldtimers", if you were right.
Lets wait and see. A17 and especially 1.0 should make modding such things back in much easier. Lets see if a back-to-the-roots mod surfaces then.
Roland
Community Moderator
Well technically the removal of crafting xp WAS a back-to-the-roots change since there was no crafting xp from Alpha 1 - Alpha 10. In A11 we got quality tiers of tools and weapons and a progression of through those tiers through crafting so that was the first time in the game that spam crafting even became a thing. It wasn't until A15 that actual xp was added in on top of the quality increase and it escalated things to the point that for many the whole point of the game was getting to max level as quickly as possible.
A16 removed that and took the game back to it's roots of no crafting xp and also offered additional pathways to gaining xp that encouraged players to do all sorts of gameplay activities other than babysitting their workstations. That was marred, of course, by the unpopular level gating but the truth is the roots of this game is just playing naturally and crafting as needed without worrying about using it as fast track to leveling up.
Now maybe someone will still create a mid-development-aberration mod and bring spam crafting back.
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Faded
New member
We're in agreement that no Alpha ever maintained past its initial spike. I'm illustrating that both the spike and dropoff occurred earlier in A16E than it did in A15E. I will concede that it is debatable why that is. A17E's population figures will give us another datapoint.
Unless enough of them quit or at the least, quit restarting often enough to find the changes annoying. We live in an age of abundance, and it's not unknown to scale back gameplay of a game that is no longer playing the way it once did.
Gup and Sylen are not kidding about the level of effort required to produce such a mod. I looked at it myself back in A15 and determined it was better to use the creative menu at strategic points (A15)/mod out the level gates / quit for months and play other games (A16).
The progression curve in A1-10 wasn't so steep as it is now either. It was quite possible to find a pickaxe in the second car you looted, letting you megabuild with concrete in a few days if that's what you wanted to do.
In A11, crafting was based on your level, and was randomized in a set range based on that level. I'm sure you remember Doc posting an image that showed everyone how it worked.
Actually, spamcrafting started back in A13 because of the way quality was redefined; breaking multiple sub QL10 stone axes on one tree was ridiculous. I found that spending the first few nights crafting stone axes made my gathering more effective a lot faster than sitting there breaking absurd amounts of tools did. The nights in the early game are dangerous anyway, so might as well spend them doing something productive.
That was when I first started modding the game, after determining the early game was made a ridiculous grindfest by the A13 implementation of quality level affecting harvest speed. Thankfully, this was quickly adjusted by TFP.
The roots of this game are just playing naturally. But that was before the skills, perks, and gates were added. Now, "playing naturally" means you're often fighting a couple zombies with a crappy wooden weapon, unable to build anything until you get some cobblestone. It's real fun harvesting that with orange tools.
When players are resorting to unintended mechanics to work around the game's restrictions, it is always most useful to look at the reasons WHY they are doing such things.Now maybe someone will still create a mid-development-aberration mod and bring spam crafting back.
It is always the wrong call to focus on what they are doing and disable it, while completely ignoring the why. This always harms the game in the long run.
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Roland
Community Moderator
That is a pretty gross generalization. I never build cobblestone with orange tools. I play nomad and hole up in existing structures during the first week and through the first bloodmoon horde. In my current playthrough I just hit level 20 on day 8 and now have yellow tools and I plan to build my cobblestone initial base for the Day 14 horde. In past games I've built a treehouse that got me through day 14, I've played nomad up to day 21, I've built a base in the apartment building that was pretty much impregnible because of its size, and I could have even built underground if it wasn't so friggin boring to do so. Point is, there are still lots of viable strategies and fun and different ways to play other than grinding out a cobblestone base on day 3 or 4 with orange tools.
Its not a mystery. Some players simply like to rush to the end game because they don't like the early days of primitive and crappy gear-- at all. As you've said, those players have the option to enable the Sandbox Mode to help themselves skip the progression and gift themselves the gear they like to play with. There are quite a lot of people who enjoy a slow progression and like eking out an existence with junk at first so that by comparison later they really appreciate the change to higher tier tools and weapons. Some of those people include the developers...
Now to the subject at hand:
I think that the predominant opinion has been that some mods should be easily swappable out in the field and others might require a workbench and still others are probably irreversible and should be permanent. That is what I am going to communicate to the developers. That is going to please some and disappoint others. If they go this route and never create an option to bypass it make everything swappable or nothing swappable I don't believe it will harm the game. In truth I think such a simplistic all on or all off would be more harmful if they took the time to design the mods into groups that are field swapped, workbench swapped, and irreversible. That design has more depth to it.
Now if they decide to go the simpler route of either all can be swapped or all are permanent, THEN I do believe an option to toggle would be the right move.
toores
New member
So this thread is about mods, huh..
Off topic for a sec:
I like the new perk system better then spam crafting. Although it makes sense to get better on the things you repeat, spam crafting takes you away from the game - to the meta game. Gameplay wise, perks seem like a better way to progress.
I would actually make skills like "Mining tools" un-purchasable and only obtained through use.
And i would ditch skills like "Miner 69-er" that are not voluntary but more like a gate to using steel weapons at all. Instead add perks that open up at certain "Mining tools" levels and give different ways your character may want to go.
For example:
Mining speed vs. durability
Craft steel tools on the go vs. Craft steel cheaper
Roland, any chance TFP will share some of their plans for the upgraded attributes/perk/progression system? That would be good stuff to argue over. Might even yield some good ideas...
Back to topic.
It feels more natural if it works similar to real life.
Off topic for a sec:
I like the new perk system better then spam crafting. Although it makes sense to get better on the things you repeat, spam crafting takes you away from the game - to the meta game. Gameplay wise, perks seem like a better way to progress.
I would actually make skills like "Mining tools" un-purchasable and only obtained through use.
And i would ditch skills like "Miner 69-er" that are not voluntary but more like a gate to using steel weapons at all. Instead add perks that open up at certain "Mining tools" levels and give different ways your character may want to go.
For example:
Mining speed vs. durability
Craft steel tools on the go vs. Craft steel cheaper
Roland, any chance TFP will share some of their plans for the upgraded attributes/perk/progression system? That would be good stuff to argue over. Might even yield some good ideas...
Back to topic.
I think this is the best way to go.
It feels more natural if it works similar to real life.
Kage848
Stream Team
Should mod be removable?
It depends really on the drop rate really. Getting that awesome magazine extender and putting it on a 2 quality gun will really sting when you then loot a 4 quality gun. If the mods are common I don't think it will matter much.
I'd say they should be removable but it should cost something. Maybe a special tool or material that would be harder to find? Like a special oil? An oil you will only find a little of and is used when removing the mod so you have to think about it and plan. Or a tool that uses durability for the mod removal.
Or a weapon bench lvl gates at 100? Something like that.
It depends really on the drop rate really. Getting that awesome magazine extender and putting it on a 2 quality gun will really sting when you then loot a 4 quality gun. If the mods are common I don't think it will matter much.
I'd say they should be removable but it should cost something. Maybe a special tool or material that would be harder to find? Like a special oil? An oil you will only find a little of and is used when removing the mod so you have to think about it and plan. Or a tool that uses durability for the mod removal.
Or a weapon bench lvl gates at 100? Something like that.
toores
New member
Heh, i was just watching your last video
Anyways, i'm not so fond of artificial gates that take fun out of it. (like special oil) I'm I'm all for weapons work bench that is not optainable too early. So early on you can only swap the mods that are easily swappable. Later you can swap the ones that require weapons workbench.
Maybe weapons workbench could also have a toolkit so you if you have it, you can use just oil and cloth to repair you weapon.
But i do think mods should not be very common. I don't like when mods become trivial. I should look for them but they should feel like an upgrade once u find them.
Faded
New member
Sounds to me like the game's current design suits you perfectly. I've played nomad and don't like it; it feels too much like a mimic of a regular FPS, which is not 7DTD's strength. I might be more interested in playing nomad if it were possible to have, say, hordes of hundreds of zombies; now that could be a challenge worth meeting.
But emphasizing one genre over another is not a route 7DTD wants to take; its greatest strength is in its unique mix of several different genres.
You can't stop min maxers from min-maxing.
Fair enough. However, your last part sounds like wanting to tell other people how to play their game to me, which I've been assured is not a thing here. There is no reason to not include a toggle option no matter what the final call TFP makes is; letting players and server owners decide is the one method that pleases everybody. Even though 82% of responses were in favor of an open system, I see no reason why that should mean the 18% that want a restricted system shouldn't have the option to play with a restricted system.
This is a great idea.
Historically, theorycrafting discussions don't go well here. Let's start some discussion after we've all had some time with A17E.
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