PC Should mods be removable? Pros and Cons.

[Faded]

It does add to the difficulty because you can't remodulate your weapons to fit a situation as it happens on the fly....

Remember, trying to stop min maxers only results in a series of awkward restrictions that individually seem reasonable, but collectively harm the game. You can also cause unintended side effects, such as: everyone will now carry 4 of each weapon. Now there are more complaints that we need more bag space.

Sorry, you misunderstand me here. If the developers make mods unremovable they surely will keep the overall difficulty the same by making more mods and weapons drop in the world. For me there are three reasons for unremovable mods (and I think reason 2 is the most important):
1) Because of above balancing you find more mods and weapons, so the chance that you never find a mod or weapon you absolutely want is smaller. Less chance of the RNG god punishing you.

2) Because you use up mods in weapons, mods you find stay relevant even if you already found such a mod...

3) Interesting decisions. Gameplay should be about making decisions ...

Only #3 will happen, because unremovable mods means I'll be hoarding them for a long time until I'm sure I won't regret putting them into a crap weapon. I'll bet you my next minibike the majority of the playerbase will do the same thing.

Surely there is a middle ground to be found here.

I like that idea a lot better than not being able to swap them at all. Either this or a significant timer because I agree that swapping "instantly on the fly" is a horrible mechanic to balance.

Ultimately, it doesn't need to be balanced. Release should have "Weapon mod removable/not removable" as an option, and let the players decide. Problem solved.

For Alpha, the workbench is an acceptable compromise.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

The simple problem we have here s that the new Buff system (and so the mentioned maybe new ammo kinds for special enemys) will maybe change the gameplay a way that makes it hard to estimate what will be better.

Generally (Counts for all games) i prefer carying only

1: Small Mellee weapon (Knife or machete)

2: Small Gun (Pistol, PDW, SMG, Shotgun) if possible something with a high Damageoutput to stop Groups of enemys short before melee range (and as tradeoff for huge ammo costs)

3: Long Range Weapon like a marksman rifle

4: a few explosives

so i prefer the ability to mod my weapons at least partially on the fly. Means for most games

Change ammotype

Switch Scope to Red Dot

add or remove silencer

For me Mini Nukes as in fallout or 4 Huge Rifles in inventory is immersion breaking.

I like it to have dedicated slots that allow only a small amount of Weapons carried ready to use.

 

[Roland]

Remember, trying to stop min maxers only results in a series of awkward restrictions that individually seem reasonable, but collectively harm the game.

I don’t have to remember any such thing. Getting rid of spam crafting for xp grinding was a huge improvement. But min/maxing isn’t what I’m talking about anyway. I’m talking about being able to take actions that really shouldn’t be instantaneous and doing them instantaneously like a magic spell.

You can also cause unintended side effects, such as: everyone will now carry 4 of each weapon. Now there are more complaints that we need more bag space.

TFP is expert at ignoring complaints about bag space. They’ve been practicing it since 2013. Didn’t you post earlier that requiring a workstation to remove mods was an acceptable compromise? I agree with you.

 

[toores]

I’m talking about being able to take actions that really shouldn’t be instantaneous and doing them instantaneously like a magic spell.

I'd be ok with a timer for swapping out attachments.

There are some mods that should require some kind of toolset or workstation. Some even should be irreversible. But silencers, scopes, magazines should be easily attachable - on the fly.

It makes no sense to make something harder in an illogical way just to make something harder...

 

[Faded]

I don’t have to remember any such thing. Getting rid of spam crafting for xp grinding was a huge improvement. But min/maxing isn’t what I’m talking about anyway. I’m talking about being able to take actions that really shouldn’t be instantaneous and doing them instantaneously like a magic spell.

The result to that change was a bunch of level and skill gating that dragged out the early game to an unacceptable level. Since it was very easy to choose to not spamcraft, making such a vast change to force players to "play fair" was the wrong call. That was a very contentious subject; I believe we had a very, very long thread about that back during the summer.

You are talking about min/maxing; yes, some people will really switch mods for every different enemy they come across, just like some people felt "forced" to spamcraft. I do agree, we can use the workbench to gate mod removal if we need to, but that is a compromise at best. I am in favor of an unrestricted system, and for release, it needs to be a game option. Anything less will further harm the game by impeding player freedom for no gain.

TFP is expert at ignoring complaints about bag space. They’ve been practicing it since 2013. Didn’t you post earlier that requiring a workstation to remove mods was an acceptable compromise? I agree with you.

I wouldn't be proud of that fact. Since modding bag space requires .dll modification, complaints about it are not so easily brushed aside with "you can mod it". Each step required to overcome design oversights gets closer and closer to "Make your own game if you don't like it".

 

[SylenThunder]

I wouldn't exactly call it a "design oversight". I'm pretty sure they intended for you to struggle with inventory space. Just imagine if everything was weighed and you had a cap on how much weight you could carry. I know that was a consideration at one point in the development cycle.

IMHO, some mods can be swapped in the field, but there has to be a balance. You can't just willy-nilly change mods. There needs to be a cost. Like time or loss of durability.

 

[Roland]

The result to that change was a bunch of level and skill gating that dragged out the early game to an unacceptable level. Since it was very easy to choose to not spamcraft, making such a vast change to force players to "play fair" was the wrong call. That was a very contentious subject; I believe we had a very, very long thread about that back during the summer.
You are talking about min/maxing; yes, some people will really switch mods for every different enemy they come across, just like some people felt "forced" to spamcraft. I do agree, we can use the workbench to gate mod removal if we need to, but that is a compromise at best. I am in favor of an unrestricted system, and for release, it needs to be a game option. Anything less will further harm the game by impeding player freedom for no gain.

I wouldn't be proud of that fact. Since modding bag space requires .dll modification, complaints about it are not so easily brushed aside with "you can mod it". Each step required to overcome design oversights gets closer and closer to "Make your own game if you don't like it".

Lol...the game is not “harmed” just because it employs design choices you don’t like. Backpack size is fine. If they never change it and always ignore those who want more inventory slots the game will not be harmed in the least. As contentious as the pre-change discussions were, there has been almost zero complaints and quite a bit of praise for how the game plays sans spam crafting.

If they go the route that some mods can be swapped but others need to be permanent then they absolutely will not (nor should they) add a top menu option to have them all or none be swappable.

 

[Guppycur]

Disagree. MM said they'd double the gameplay time, which they did by gating everything and slowing progression with level gating... But yeh, it harmed the game. And I suspect they know it.

 

[Roland]

Level gating was in addition to getting rid of crafting xp. They could lose the level gating in my opinion. But there are others who like that too.

 

[Guppycur]

Yes. Spam crafting... The straw man problem that was created because you could gain the ability to create concrete by making stone axes...

...not a lot had changed, because now you can BUY concrete by... Also doing something that has nothing to do with the other. =)

It's all good, a17 brings more changes, I pay attention. As long as there are two steps forward I don't mind the steps backwards.

 

[Faded]

I wouldn't exactly call it a "design oversight". I'm pretty sure they intended for you to struggle with inventory space. Just imagine if everything was weighed and you had a cap on how much weight you could carry. I know that was a consideration at one point in the development cycle.

A fair point, but we've gotten a lot more types of items added over the last several Alphas, and the last time backpack space changed was in A9, when we lost the bottom row. At some point, it will be time to revisit this subject again. For release, I envision several different settings, something like:

Realistic/Survivalist: 8 slots

Base: Current size

Large: Double current size

Packrat: Triple current size

IMHO, some mods can be swapped in the field, but there has to be a balance. You can't just willy-nilly change mods. There needs to be a cost. Like time or loss of durability.

Perhaps loss of durability is another idea. Tie it to your weaponsmithing skill.

Lol...the game is not “harmed” just because it employs design choices you don’t like. Backpack size is fine. If they never change it and always ignore those who want more inventory slots the game will not be harmed in the least.

This is still an open world sandbox. Earlier Alphas captured this feel very well. These recent Alphas are moving further and further from it. The more recent changes happen to fit your playstyle perfectly, so I'm unsurprised you'd claim it's fine.

I'm still holding out for a great many options at release to let players quickly adjust the game to their taste. Changing the XML shouldn't be the only way to accomplish any change to the base design.

As contentious as the pre-change discussions were, there has been almost zero complaints and quite a bit of praise for how the game plays sans spam crafting.

Two likely explanations: First, survivorship bias. The ones that really hated it quit. Second, the new players that never had it can't miss it.

If they go the route that some mods can be swapped but others need to be permanent then they absolutely will not (nor should they) add a top menu option to have them all or none be swappable.

If that's the case, they can get ready to take the "Sandbox" tag off the game's page. Each decision like this gets closer and closer to getting rid of the remaining sand.

 

[meganoth]

1) Because of above balancing you find more mods and weapons, so the chance that you never find a mod or weapon you absolutely want is smaller. Less chance of the RNG god punishing you.

2) Because you use up mods in weapons, mods you find stay relevant even if you already found such a mod. ...

3) Interesting decisions.

Only #3 will happen, because unremovable mods means I'll be hoarding them for a long time until I'm sure I won't regret putting them into a crap weapon. I'll bet you my next minibike the majority of the playerbase will do the same thing.

Wrong. Even if you are a horader, the moment you find a second exemplar of a high quality mod you will insert one of those two into any mediocre weapon you have because you have another one left for the high quality weapon.

 

[Faded]

Wrong. Even if you are a horader, the moment you find a second exemplar of a high quality mod you will insert one of those two into any mediocre weapon you have because you have another one left for the high quality weapon.

I don't use mediocre weapons, they break too quickly to be worth the resources to maintain.

 

[Roland]

This is still an open world sandbox.

Well it is when you have the creative menu enabled at least.

Earlier Alphas captured this feel very well. These recent Alphas are moving further and further from it. The more recent changes happen to fit your playstyle perfectly, so I'm unsurprised you'd claim it's fine.

Early alphas were missing most of the components the Pimps wanted to add to make it a game. PvP players also claim that earlier alphas were more PVP friendly.

When you have just a bare framework then it can be pretty much whatever anyone wants it to be. As the developers have designed more of their vision into the game it becomes less of a free for all and more of an actual game with rules, restrictions, and boundaries— when you are playing the vanilla game.

I'm still holding out for a great many options at release to let players quickly adjust the game to their taste. Changing the XML shouldn't be the only way to accomplish any change to the base design.

Madmole has said they will create many options. We’ll see what they come up with.

Two likely explanations: First, survivorship bias. The ones that really hated it quit. Second, the new players that never had it can't miss it.

Three, after all the hypothetical grousing about something they never played they tried it and liked it just fine.

If that's the case, they can get ready to take the "Sandbox" tag off the game's page. Each decision like this gets closer and closer to getting rid of the remaining sand.

Not so. As long as they keep Creative Mode they can always keep the sandbox tag since Creative Mode provides infinite sand and with creative mode enabled you could play however you want with whatever gun mods you want and if you didn’t like a combo you could just scrap the whole thing and give yourself a new combo. Creative Mode is the no restrictions do anything sandbox part of the game and it always will be.

 

[Kattla]

I wouldn't exactly call it a "design oversight". I'm pretty sure they intended for you to struggle with inventory space. Just imagine if everything was weighed and you had a cap on how much weight you could carry. I know that was a consideration at one point in the development cycle.
IMHO, some mods can be swapped in the field, but there has to be a balance. You can't just willy-nilly change mods. There needs to be a cost. Like time or loss of durability.

I do not see a problem with beeing able to swap weapon mods willy-nilly, or in the field. To a certain extent,

that is what we have done with weapon parts in alphas prior to A17. Apart from a bug or two, i have not heard

many complaints about it, and personally, i liked it very much.

Judging by this poll results, although rather limited in terms of actual votes and options, 84% also seems to

agree on this (the swap as we please part at least).

Costs? There are costs to the weapon mods system already in the system.

- Inventory space. It can be quite precious when out looting and exploring.

- Time it takes to open inventory, swap mods, close inventory, reload weapon.

- I kinda expect the mods to degrade by USE and when repaired, like weapon parts did.

Even if i could carry 10 mods and change them as i please, it is most likely i would just carry one modded weapon

that is "good enough" , and leave those 10 mods at base to save inventory space.

At higher gamestage, maybe i carry another suitable weapon to deal with ferals.

Why another weapon instead of swapping mods? Takes less time to switch weapon then

swap mods, and in the midst of a battle, time is very very precious.

 

[Kattla]

If that's the case, they can get ready to take the "Sandbox" tag off the game's page. Each decision like this gets closer and closer to getting rid of the remaining sand.

Agreed.

 

[Faded]

Well it is when you have the creative menu enabled at least.

Creative is perfect for testing new base designs and seeing how the game changed from Alpha to Alpha. 7DTD A10-12 was a sandbox game with enough progression to be meaningful, but enough freedom that creative mode was not necessary.

When you have just a bare framework then it can be pretty much whatever anyone wants it to be. As the developers have designed more of their vision into the game it becomes less of a free for all and more of an actual game with rules, restrictions, and boundaries— when you are playing the vanilla game.

And players can't come up with their own rules, restrictions, and boundaries? This is really the wrong genre to expect a prepackaged experience.

Three, after all the hypothetical grousing about something they never played they tried it and liked it just fine.

http://steamcharts.com/app/251570#1y

Who was speaking in hypothetics about the removal of spamcrafting being the wrong call? A search shows that the threads on the subject were after A16 Experimental hit. I started discussing the topic myself after enough time in A16E to find out how slow the new early game is.

Not so. As long as they keep Creative Mode they can always keep the sandbox tag since Creative Mode provides infinite sand and with creative mode enabled you could play however you want with whatever gun mods you want and if you didn’t like a combo you could just scrap the whole thing and give yourself a new combo. Creative Mode is the no restrictions do anything sandbox part of the game and it always will be.

A sandbox game doesn't have to mean "do anything, anytime". 7DTD A10-12 hit it about perfect with player freedom. This was and is still the goal, according to the steam page.

Tags:

https://imgur.com/a/JbvUp

Description about the game, with highlights:

https://imgur.com/a/5Pm4t

 

[Roland]

Alpha 10 is still available to play. So, once again you have creative mode for sandbox play, Alpha 10 for your own personal pinnacle of sandbox play, and then the current Alpha which is closer to the dev’s vision of the game they want to create.

I’m a bit surprised at you thinking that that steamchart result proves anything about player sentiment for spam crafting or even level gating. It would be like me waiting until just after a17 drops when there is a spike and showing that week of steam charts saying that proves people like spam crafting. But I wouldn’t be that disingenuous...

Those tags and those descriptions are equally as true if the devs create a game with restrictions such as mods that cannot be easily swappable as long as they make creative mode available for players to turn on and off at any moment—which they do. Creative mode offers ultimate freedom and ability to do what people like to do in sandbox games.

I know you don’t see it this way but the devs ARE crafting a game that will be balanced according to THEIR design choices which will create restrictions. They do plan to have options but probably not to lift every single restriction individually. Instead, they’ll keep creative mode as an option that gives blanket ability to bypass restrictions and maintain the world as a true sandbox.

 

[Faded]

Alpha 10 is still available to play. So, once again you have creative mode for sandbox play, Alpha 10 for your own personal pinnacle of sandbox play, and then the current Alpha which is closer to the dev’s vision of the game they want to create.I know you don’t see it this way but the devs ARE crafting a game that will be balanced according to THEIR design choices which will create restrictions. They do plan to have options but probably not to lift every single restriction individually. Instead, they’ll keep creative mode as an option that gives blanket ability to bypass restrictions and maintain the world as a true sandbox.

I hope you don't take Creative mode being there as satisfying the "sandbox" tag, regardless of what is done to the base game.

But I do expect that, in lieu of many, many options, TFP may decide to release "Game modes". (Bring Back Horde Mode 2018)

I’m a bit surprised at you thinking that that steamchart result proves anything about player sentiment for spam crafting or even level gating. It would be like me waiting until just after a17 drops when there is a spike and showing that week of steam charts saying that proves people like spam crafting. But I wouldn’t be that disingenuous...

Typically the spike in population happens when a new build is released. For A16, the spike occurred in experimental, and the population declined rapidly even after A16 release down to its current levels. I'd say that paints a pretty clear picture as to player sentiment regarding A16.

I wonder why that is. Of the remaining players, I am extremely curious how many mod out the excessive gating.

 

[Guppycur]

Since most players can't, my guess is they just stopped playing.

Horde mode is coming back. MM pinkie promised me. Probably not a17 though, otherwise Roland would have teased me.