PC Scrap Magazine Notes (crafting materials for Full Magazines) - have a place in Vanilla

You got it mostly correct

The item used to craft a magazine is "Scrap Magazine notes" these DO NOT come from scrapped magazines. This it an item you find in the Silent hill mod. Sometimes it's 1 scrap, sometimes it's 8 in a chest. Magazines still scrap to paper.

These are like loose articles someone clipped out, again these ARE NOT from scrapping magazines, but a specific item type. I don't think you should scrap magazines to get these.


That's what I thought I said and the difference from past proposals.

The reason I think these would be a good addition is it splits the argument between
"I hate random magazines and I have no control over my progression" 
and
"It's already too easy as is"

I don't think this makes progression faster overall, only more directed towards your intended build. I finally was able to craft a crucible at level 48 after putting MOST of my crafted magazines into it. I think people will be surprised by how it works. In the silent hill mod, magazines are completely gone and you only get skill books. I was a big fan of the OG system, but after several games where I just COULDN'T find a critical magazine type, this would have completely solved that frustration and made it a lot more fun.


This is the part I was trying to assess. If you just add scraps and leave the full magazine loot unchanged, then it has to make getting magazines easier as you'll still get all the old method and now you'll be able to assemble desired magazines from scraps at some new rate.

Right now the magazine drops are influenced by skills that you take. Would you remove that in favor of the scraps?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I feel like people are missing the concept. It's loose articles. Like someone clips out several pages because of a cool invention in popular mechanics. While you don't have the full magazine, if you collect enough scraps, you'd have the full artilce/magazine. It's not COMPLETELY logical, and nothing is in this game. Jars disappear for game balance. NOT for realism. Zombies exist for, well gameplay and not realism. 

What if you ONLY had these in loot bags? These are SUPPOSED to feel special to help you move towards your desired build, not replace it. I suppose I might feel strongly because I am playing a system now that uses it and I am having WAY more fun because of it. I'm 1100+ hrs of actual gameplay (majority solo) so this is coming from someone with 40+ hours in every Alpha past 6 till now.

Either way, people have strong feelings on the current system as it can be very random and keep you from getting what you would like. This let's you nudge it in your desired direction. Again, not saying these replace, but supplement
 
In the end, what is really different other than that you can make any magazine from generic scraps?  You now have to find a LOT more scraps to max everything out unless you're also getting magazines.  And, if you're also getting magazines, it just seems like overkill, even ignoring the fact that generic scraps aren't going to combine into your choice of magazine.  If the scraps were specific to magazines - Scrap of Southern Farming - then I could see it as a possible option.   However, if it's generic scraps, it just really doesn't make a lot of sense.  There's a line where something that isn't realistic is either acceptable or not.  Some things are acceptable for gameplay reasons, while other things are not.  A lot of people don't consider missing jars to be acceptable, but they at least aren't too illogical.  You can easily imagine that you're just tossing them away whenever you use them.  Yes, it's true that a person in such a world wouldn't waste them, and yes, if you tossed them away, most wouldn't break so you should be able to pick them up, but it can still make sense, even if it's kind of dumb.  But if you were to actually go out and start grabbing scraps of random magazines all around the world, what is the chance you'll have even the slightest chance of finding enough of any specific magazine to be of any use?  Pretty much zero.  It's so far beyond logical that it doesn't work, which puts it too far into the unrealistic category to be okay.

If you were to suggest that you could get scraps and then craft them into a random magazine, that might be at least logical and acceptable.  It would suggest that you're finding random scraps and once you have X scraps, you've found enough to make a magazine, but that because the scraps are random, you don't choose the magazine and you just get whatever you get.  That can make sense.  However, it does not really offer any value.  You want a way to get the magazines you choose, which this doesn't offer.  And this would just require you to use another (limited) inventory space to collect the scraps instead of just getting completed magazines.  It could be okay to add, but not really needed, and not what you want.

It's clear that you like it because it makes it faster to get the magazines you want, but that's not enough reason to add something that makes no sense to vanilla.  It's fine as a mod, for those who don't care about how illogical it is and just want magazines to be easier to get, but not for vanilla.  In the end, what you want is that you can complete your magazines for specific sets more easily, right?  What would be wrong with just reducing the number of magazines instead?  That is entirely logical and would also make it easier to complete magazine sets.  I think you'll have far more support for something like that than crafting magazines out of random scraps.

In the end, I've had very little trouble finding magazines that I want in the game.  Many of them have specific types of containers where they are most likely to drop, so if you target those, you can quickly increase the number you have.  I often don't even hit mailboxes very much beyond the first few days (2 hour days) because it's just as easy to get what I want while looting POI.  I'll grab a mailbox at a POI I'm looting or questing at, but I don't run down the street and hit every mailbox after that first couple of days.  I do it initially just to get a faster start.  After that, I will hit a Crack-A-Book if I find one, which isn't always the case.  And I'll just focus on where I know things are.  Forge Ahead has a very high chance of dropping in workstations - workbench, cement mixer, etc. - so I'll keep an eye out for any POI that have any form of construction on them and also check garages that often have workbenches.  The two tool magazines and electrical magazines drop often from the box trucks, so I'll stop and loot those anytime I find them.  Cooking is simple as it's very easy to get from cabinets, which are in just about any POI.  Weapon magazines will drop easily if you put in any points into your weapon.  And so on.  If you know where magazines are likely to drop and you keep an eye out for them, it really isn't that difficult to find them.  And I don't even put points into skills specifically to get an increased drop of magazines, and probably spread my points too far that I get less focused drops, yet I still don't really have a problem.  Of course, if you want to max out certain magazines within the first week or two, you're going to have trouble doing so.  But if you're willing to let things happen in a more reasonable (longer) pace, it isn't really that bad.

Now, I'm not saying magazines can't use some work.  Some do take much longer than others to get as they have far fewer drop locations or are only available in containers that can drop a lot of different magazines, causing them to drop infrequently.  Those could either get more drop locations or have their required numbers be reduced.  And there are other ways magazines could be improved.  I just don't think that random scraps crafted into your choice of magazine is okay.  Again, it's fine as a mod, just not for vanilla.

 
Reading magazines and learning how to build a gyro is the same kind of realism. Wouldn´t matter tbh, it´s both abstract and unrealistic.

The problem with magazines is that you can´t ignore any loot container that could contain them. Annoying af, boring af. Would be the same with magazien scraps, so a no from me.
Except to learn to craft a gyro you are reading magazines specifically about vehicles. Not taking random scraps and turning them into a magazine about gyros that you somehow knew how to make the magazine with the info in it, but then still learn something after reading it. That doesn't seem silly to you?

Look, I'm not a fan of the magazine system overall. I don't like magazines being shoehorned into every single loot container the game has. It's dumb, but adding scraps you can use to craft whatever magazine you want is even more dumb. RNG is a big part of what makes the game, if you take away every chance for RNG to have an effect, the game is gonna get even more stale and boring even faster than it does now. They basically killed RNG when it comes to RWG and worlds, if you take it out of loot too the game just gets worse.

 
RNG is a big part of what makes the game, if you take away every chance for RNG to have an effect, the game is gonna get even more stale and boring even faster than it does now. They basically killed RNG when it comes to RWG and worlds, if you take it out of loot too the game just gets worse.
Exactly.  Magazines also helped to kill RNG.  People complain that magazines are RNG, but they don't really feel that way unless you're trying for a specific magazine.  You just find so many of them that the RNG of them isn't a big deal unless you're focused on a specific magazine.  With schematics pre-1.0, you might be able to craft X on day 1, or not until day 70.  Each game would turn out differently because of RNG of schematics.  You didn't have any way to guarantee you could find a specific schematic the way you do with magazines.  Of course, some things were tied to perks or just could be crafted no matter what and are now tied to magazines, so for those items, there's RNG involved that wasn't there before.  But for everything that used to be a schematic, you used to have variety from game to game, and that could lead you to playing the game differently.  I really miss that RNG.  Now, you always get everything from a magazine set in the same order every game.  No more RNG.  It makes each game too similar.  The changes to RWG maps to remove so much RNG from them is even worse, though since I use Teragon, I don't have to deal with those changes.  Either way, removing RNG isn't a good thing, imo.

 
 Either way, removing RNG isn't a good thing, imo.
It's the Stealth argument all over again.  Some players feel stealth should work and should work every time.  Some players feel stealth leaves room for RNG latitude.

Either a player accepts RNG in a game or they don't accept RNG in a game.

Its baked into gamers, and the two groups will rarely agree on where to draw the line.

 
Your right forcing any particular play style is not a good thing.  (I prefer to build as well, and to explore.)

Having said that trader quests ARE the META for the vast majority of players.  We can't give TFPs a pass on that.

Nerfing quest rewards made a little headway but there is much to make up. 


They have given us the means. I've played my last few runs with trader quests limited to one per day and it has resulted in me exploring a lot more POIs on my own as well as filling my days with alternative activities to quests. I get my one quest done in the morning and then do other things for the rest of the day.

But...very few players seem to want to play at that slow of a pace. TFP tried to force a limit but got blasted by the community and then changed it to a player selectable option. We can't give the community a pass on that. All anyone needs to do is use the existing feature to limit questing rep in order to reduce the size of the footprint quests have in the game if that is truly what they want.

If nobody is using the option then it seems like everyone is happy with spamming quests....

 
What do people think of these who have played with scraps?
Should this be brought into vanilla along side full magazines?


I'm pretty chill with abstractions for the sake of gameplay. For jars I just assume I always have what I need on hand and am not bothered that I can't see them in my inventory. Adding scraps wouldn't bother me in the way others in this thread have been posting. I can believe that once you find three scraps they happen to be of the type you were always looking for because that was what you needed and so those were the scraps you collected. I wouldn't think of it as I found three scraps of cooking recipes but then decided to piece them together to make a better tier of machine gun.

However, I think something like this that makes it possible to rush the progression even easier is best left as a mod and not added to vanilla. Plus, it adds another layer to what is a pretty simple, streamlined, and straightforward system which is a great reason for adding a mod if you want that extra layer. Anyway, I would be willing to try such a mod as it sounds interesting.

Good try :).


At what? What is it you think I was trying to do?

 
I thought I thought...you were trying to get a rise out of non -questers...I saw a pussycat.


Sorry, no. I wasn't meaning that everyone is spamming quests if they don't use the option. I know there are those who don't toggle the option but just self limit or ignore the trader completely. My point was that making quests the primary activity of the game isn't something TFP is forcing. The option to toggle quest rep pacing as well as the ability for people to self limit are all evidence that questing doesn't have to be THE meta but if it is then it must be preferred by a lot of players and it's probably best TFP not do something to force players off that meta for the vanilla experience.

Same is true for magazines. They don't need to do anything to gate frequency of magazine loot or increase ability to get what you desire through scrap crafting. Such things can be left to mods. Currently people can choose to focus all their energy on finding and reading magazines as quickly as possible as their primary actions during the first few days or they can choose to focus on other things and just find magazines as they come and make do with what they have as they progress. If someone wants to mess with that by adding a mechanic that either slows it down, gates it, or increases player control over what they get then it should be a mod.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
My point was that making quests the primary activity of the game isn't something TFP is forcing. The option to toggle quest rep pacing as well as the ability for people to self limit are all evidence that questing doesn't have to be THE meta but if it is then it must be preferred by a lot of players and it's probably best TFP not do something to force players off that meta for the vanilla experience.
I disagree.  Players are immediately directed to a trader and are then immediately directed to a buried supplies quest; is certainly forefront in the game dynamics.

As a newer player you would suspect those are important game loop points.  Heck they are even important to wile veterans.

What I can't accept is that TFPs are not culpable (wholly or in part) in creating that organic default or meta game play.

 
questing doesn't have to be THE meta but if it is then it must be preferred by a lot of players and it's probably best TFP not do something to force players off that meta for the vanilla experience.
That's a bit cart before the horse.. if you make a system that is largely the most effective way to achieve everything, it'll be the meta, and it'll be preferred by everyone. Make something different and people will start shifting. If TFP thinks people are doing too much questing, they need to offer a proper alternative.

People will tolerate plenty of inefficiencies just for the fun of doing something different, but the quest loop is still rather powerful. Optimizing there will tempt a lot of people. Early rewards are all right as such, but later on Infested caches etc are really strong - and you'll have to grind a lot of the early stuff to get to those. Better get them "out of the way" asap. Plus trader inventories are bound to it, so if you plan on buying something.. you'll still be questing.

 
Honestly, i'm fine with them scrapping to paper.  Using Scrap magazine pieces doesn't make sense lore-wise because how does a bunch of notes about collecting seeds and the folly of early harvest, help you design a gyrocopter?

You might as well do what i do from time to time, and 'trade in' magazines and parts for magazines and parts i want from the creative menu.  I see nothing wrong with that, it helps fix the rng a little in your favor.  But i haven't done that for a while.  I feel that the balance is in a good place for magazine and parts.  Granted you can often buy or loot better quality stuff than what you can craft, but i kind of like that.  It encourages the looting aspect of the game a lot more than the crafting. But i wouldn't mind a more even balance to what you can find/buy/craft.

I also only ever use the nerd armor magazine bonus when i play an int build.

 
That's a bit cart before the horse.. if you make a system that is largely the most effective way to achieve everything, it'll be the meta, and it'll be preferred by everyone. Make something different and people will start shifting. If TFP thinks people are doing too much questing, they need to offer a proper alternative.


There is a proper alternative. The setting to limit your questing reputation points. Toggle that to one and the game reduces the quest footprint in the game significantly. I'd be fine with TFP forcing the nerf but it probably is better as a selectable option. Nobody has to roleplay or tolerate inefficiencies for the sake of doing a challenge run. It is an official game setting.

But as I said, if nobody is choosing it and most prefer to make questing continue to be a big part of the gameplay loop then that says something about what the community wants. But post 1.0 with that setting available there is no reason for anyone to intensely quest and then complain they are trapped in the meta. You can quest nonstop if you want or toggle the option and make it so the game discourages you from questing nonstop.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have been playing with a Silent Hill Mod for the last week and I am having a wonderful time.

One big change is the removal of Magazines and instead you get magazine scraps. With 3 scraps you can craft a magazine of your choice.

In vanilla, I would say the Magazines should still scrap to paper, the Scrap Magazine Notes I am referring to are a unique item you cannot create, but must find/loot.

I am now level 48 and I have only maxed out 1 magazine branch. The majority of the time you get them from bag drops or mailboxes/file cabinets

If we included these alongside full magazines, I feel like this would REALLY make the build out of your character feel more purposeful and give you more freedom, while still keeping a level of RNG in the game to avoid it becoming 100% predictable as far as progression.

What do people think of these who have played with scraps?
Should this be brought into vanilla along side full magazines?
Where do you think it would make sense to find these? 
View attachment 33442
I would love this

 
if nobody is choosing it and most prefer to make questing continue to be a big part of the gameplay loop then that says something about what the community wants.
They're not choosing it not because they want to spam quests; but because the game doesn't offer an alternative. If once you've done your one quest, the best route to take for most goals in the game is to still keep doing quests, people will be doing quests. At that point, losing the rep by a self-inflicted setting is just pointless.

The game needs to offer a proper alternative. The setting isn't an alternative thing to do, it's just a minor nerf to the most lucrative option. The proper alternatives are things like "go hunting", which is unnecessary as you don't need food beyond what the POIs give you. Gameplay actions, not just arbitrary turn limits. You can make chess into a long game by limiting your turns into one per week, but that's not giving you alternative things to do. That's just making you invent alternative things to do.

Plus, if nobody's choosing it, it just means that

- people who want to do something else, are already doing something else, and

- people who spam quests out of pure joy of arcade shooters, are still spamming quests and

- people who see it as the best path to get to their favorite thing like base building, are still spamming quests.

It's just a pointless setting. There's not a player type that would want to take it; the ones who see a point in it, can already restrain themselves without it (the reasoning for the point is also sufficient reasoning for the self-limitation).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
i dunno about there being no worthwhile alternatives to do. I put thousands of hours of playtime in before quests were ever a thing and all those same activities still exist in the game. When I just do one quest per day my day is still pretty full of other objectives and tasks I want to accomplish. 

 
They're not choosing it not because they want to spam quests; but because the game doesn't offer an alternative. If once you've done your one quest, the best route to take for most goals in the game is to still keep doing quests, people will be doing quests. At that point, losing the rep by a self-inflicted setting is just pointless.

The game needs to offer a proper alternative. The setting isn't an alternative thing to do, it's just a minor nerf to the most lucrative option. The proper alternatives are things like "go hunting", which is unnecessary as you don't need food beyond what the POIs give you. Gameplay actions, not just arbitrary turn limits. You can make chess into a long game by limiting your turns into one per week, but that's not giving you alternative things to do. That's just making you invent alternative things to do.

Plus, if nobody's choosing it, it just means that

- people who want to do something else, are already doing something else, and

- people who spam quests out of pure joy of arcade shooters, are still spamming quests and

- people who see it as the best path to get to their favorite thing like base building, are still spamming quests.

It's just a pointless setting. There's not a player type that would want to take it; the ones who see a point in it, can already restrain themselves without it (the reasoning for the point is also sufficient reasoning for the self-limitation).
Wait, why are you spamming quests, if you don't like spamming quests?  Go do other stuff.

You can set up a cache in the middle of a block and loot every poi, and store everything there.  That is your best option for getting the most loot quickly.  Running back and forth to the trader is for scrubs.

'Oh but mah quest rewards!!! '  they honestly aren't worth a lot.  You can get more magazines and better loot buy hitting up poi right next to the 1 you just cleared.

Time is one of the biggest resources you need to manage in this game, and running back and forth to the trader is not fun.

And you don't need the open trade routes to find new traders.  The roads take you right to them.  They used to be spread out randomly across the map, now you just ride down a road until you find 1.

People get too bound up by wanting to play to meta, rushing quests, etc that they don't see how other playstyles are fun. 

 
Back
Top