PC Rick has Opinions on certain playstyles.

You're using "emergent gameplay" like it's a goal. If zombies don't dig, the emergent is hiding under a layer of mud like Arnie in Predator. If they do dig, the emergent is hiding "deeper" in ground, or providing routes. Both options produce emergent possibilities; and thus it's not a counterargument for digging having been a mechanic against a player tactic (of covering themselves in mud).
But the fact that the player still can cover themselves with mud and play underground does prove that TFP didn’t go to war with players over underground base building. If your assumptions for motives were true then there would be further measures taken when players started going underground again. 
 

If TFP truly wanted to prevent players from playing underground then why have they allowed it these past five years. You’re saying they gave zombies the ability to dig to stop players from building underground bases because they hated players doing that but then ended their war completely even though players kept building underground bases? If anything, it has gotten easier to live underground as they’ve adjusted the AI since A17 which also contradicts your assumptions of their motives. 

What these things do indicate is that TFP added digging back in because they overhauled the pathing and gave zombies the ability to interact in 3d space which allowed them to path vertically as well as horizontally and destroy in those directions as well. It made building underground more challenging but not impossible and they haven’t done anything more to assuage their supposed loathing for players who make underground bunkers. 
 

I live in one. There's no screamers, no stragglers, no spawns whatsoever. The digging fails to threaten me to this day. And the perception of it being implemented against players digging remains.
Yeah, that’s why they call streamers “Influencers”. The stark reality stares you in the face but because Saven or JaWoodle state a false assumption as fact for clickbait you believe them even though they have no more access to knowing dev motives than you do. 
 

I’m privy to many internal conversations and tell you that digging zombies was not added to prevent players from playing underground, you confirm that fact by playing underground, no further escalations to your supposed arms race has ever happened to stop players from playing underground but it must be true because a streamer said it….smh

So the check to do it just happens to happen after being dropped, only when landing within ~10 meters of the target player. Absolutely by coincidink, I'm sure. The results show it's designed against droppers. The way it's implemented also breaks parkour, you can just jump a couple times to get most of the zeds start eating walls... emergent gameplay at its finest.
I still don’t understand this. You might be right about this one but I don’t know who droppers are. I don’t know what you are referencing here. 
 

Naturally. The track record of achieving that is a little spotty, as evidenced by the points we're discussing; but I'm sure that's the goal.
Okay but motive is a big part of this conversation. I don’t disagree that many changes have affected the way players play and required a shift. You and others are claiming TFP’s motives are to go to war against specific playstyles and end them. I still say that your perception is imagined. The end result is still the same, of course. There’s no denying you can’t reach through arrow slit blocks any longer. But the reason and motive also matters. You seem predisposed to think the worst motives based on nothing more than supposition. I disagree with your assumptions based on my own experience hearing them talk about these changes and their reasons for making them. 
 

Then no-one would be claiming that TFP has reacted to that particular player design, some players would be happy, and some might complain the game is too easy? Did something change?
I never said TFP wasn’t reacting to player feedback. Of course they do. Of course they fix glitches and close exploits when they find them or become aware of them. That’s undeniable and I haven’t denied that. But you guys are assigning motives of hatred towards certain players and their playstyles. That is what I’m arguing against. You’re contextualizing changes to the game as personal attacks by the devs against players and that is not true. You’re saying that this widespread perception proves that it is true. No it doesn’t. 

 
If your assumptions for motives were true
My assumptions for motives in this thread are from.. what was it "When players get creative, TFP likes to complain about or kill it", something along those lines. Players got creative and buried 3 feet deep; TFP went in and killed it. Perfectly valid example for the snarky comment. I don't see a point arguing digging further than that, especially as we mostly agree with the main bits about it.

You’re saying they gave zombies the ability to dig to stop players from building underground bases because they hated players doing that
No.

I still don’t understand this.
That seems to apply to the entirety of the post above that line. But this one I can hopefully open for you: with "dropper base" I referred to any and all base designs that cause the zombies to take a path that they can't follow, leading them into dropping down to an earlier position on the path, creating an eternal loop. This includes various designs, for example, in order of "exploitativeness"

- a sledge turret at a narrow path

- a jumping puzzle or tight corners where some of the zeds fail to land

- electric hatches/door set to open when walked on

- half-block "bridge" topped with a half block "wall" (zeds think they can walk through half blocks, while also thinking they can walk on half blocks. Both are true, but in combination with a wedge tip, they try, get displaced by the wedge tip and fail)

Okay but motive is a big part of this conversation.
The only source for "motives" in this discussion is a "like" in a snarky comment by someone other than me. You're reading a whole lot into it.

I never said TFP wasn’t reacting to player feedback. Of course they do.
It has been a theme in this discussion, so I included it into my prediction. If you don't care for it, I can remove it:

What if some players loved the gameplay of juggling the zombies back and forth like it was possible to do in A17 and TFP had listened to them and never made changes so as to not be "anti-player"?
Some players would be happy, and some might complain the game is too easy? Did something change?

Was there a point to the question? Maybe a motive?

You’re contextualizing changes to the game as personal attacks by the devs against players and that is not true.
I am not. I am describing the steps that have lead some to see it that way; they're not wrong about the steps, and as outsiders I can't blame them for the interpretation (in some cases).

 
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To the contrary, I think there was something kinda great about having to design a shelter where you would have to cover multiple areas because you couldn't trust -every last one of them- to do the same exact thing. .. I trust the unpredictability of dumb zombies unincorporated into the hivemind would spice up horde night significantly.


First of all "every last one of them" was only true for A17. Case in Point: Our current horde base got into trouble once exactly because some zombie(s) were attacking a wall instead of following the easiest path and when they broke through found a ladder someone erreanously had put there in reach for the zombies. (In A16 we simply could have moved somewhere else and the danger would have been immediately averted)

Covering multiple areas means you simply do the same wall on every side. In A16 the only designs I saw myself or someone else build were blocks, either with us standing on top or standing inside the block. The only difference was how the block walls were done. Sure, it is more actiony in the horde night that way, but the construction part was simple to almost non-existant.

 
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A force field provides zero actual benefit over a moat, which still works fine. If I'm lazy, I cover my base entrance with a two-deep ditch, you can drive over it just as well as you could the force field, and it blocks zombie pathing just the same. But it was "important enough" to mess up the actual arrow slit function of the arrow slit block.


So the ditch works just like someone new to the game would expect it. Which means it is perfect in that regard at least. Also the zombies who fall down there will attack the walls and potentially create a path into the horde base or create a step that immediately works as a path out of the ditch (at least it should, I haven't tested it). At a minimum it means more repair work.

Now the arrow slit did not work at all like expected, that is why it is called a force field, right? It also is perfectly safe as the zombies can not ever attack any block there to finally make a path to you (if you are not at a lower height than them)

 
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Also the zombies who fall down there will attack the walls and potentially create a path into the horde base or create a step that immediately works as a path out of the ditch (at least it should, I haven't tested it). At a minimum it means more repair work.
They don't. They neither fall in with any regularity (they intentionally avoid drops), nor really dig out - if they have a path back to the outside. This does assume a fighting position with proper pathing "crossing" the ditch somewhere, but the force field behaves exactly the same, and requires the same - to avoid zeds from digging the sides of the force field / ditch.

I feel I need to pre-empt a "but this is a strategy only veterans will use" by emphasizing: the force field requires exactly as much expertise to function properly.

Now the arrow slit did not work at all like expected, that is why it is called a force field, right?
It worked perfectly fine for its expected purpose, protecting a shooter from incoming fire. Now it doesn't, at all, the concrete lets bullets and vomit through just fine. Not exactly a lose-lose, but a lose-"no gain".

 
My assumptions for motives in this thread are from.. what was it "When players get creative, TFP likes to complain about or kill it", something along those lines. Players got creative and buried 3 feet deep; TFP went in and killed it. Perfectly valid example for the snarky comment. I don't see a point arguing digging further than that, especially as we mostly agree with the main bits about it.

No.

That seems to apply to the entirety of the post above that line. But this one I can hopefully open for you: with "dropper base" I referred to any and all base designs that cause the zombies to take a path that they can't follow, leading them into dropping down to an earlier position on the path, creating an eternal loop. This includes various designs, for example, in order of "exploitativeness"

- a sledge turret at a narrow path

- a jumping puzzle or tight corners where some of the zeds fail to land

- electric hatches/door set to open when walked on

- half-block "bridge" topped with a half block "wall" (zeds think they can walk through half blocks, while also thinking they can walk on half blocks. Both are true, but in combination with a wedge tip, they try, get displaced by the wedge tip and fail)

The only source for "motives" in this discussion is a "like" in a snarky comment by someone other than me. You're reading a whole lot into it.

It has been a theme in this discussion, so I included it into my prediction. If you don't care for it, I can remove it:

Some players would be happy, and some might complain the game is too easy? Did something change?

Was there a point to the question? Maybe a motive?

I am not. I am describing the steps that have lead some to see it that way; they're not wrong about the steps, and as outsiders I can't blame them for the interpretation (in some cases).


Fair enough that the motives that some people assign to development changes that I described may not apply to you personally. You set yourself up as Old Crow's wingman and they are who I was originally talking to. If you don't subscribe to their ideas that's fine. You stepped into the debate on the side of someone who does believe TFP are anti-player so I mistakenly assumed you also held the same belief. 

You did characterize the digging zombies example as an arms race which I still disagree. I don't blame people for their erroneous interpretations either. It is very typical for gamers to take changes to the game they are playing personally. It's pretty universal across all games and forums. It doesn't mean anyone is out to get them. As I said the steps result in the same outcome regardless of the developers' intent. Players must adapt their playstyles because the old way no longer works. Some will interpret such steps as a personal assault against them. They'd be wrong though.

Faatal is the one who coded the AI so that zombies trigger into area destruction mode when they can't detect a path to the player, or randomly forget their path, or (assuming you're correct) they fall off a ledge. He's pretty active here in the forum. Stick an @ in front of his name on the main thread and ask him if he made those changes to punish people who made bases that take advantage of dropping zombies. From my own readings and conversations with him I think he was simply seeking for more variability in zombie behavior and wasn't targeting specific play styles with a punishing attitude in mind even if it seems to you to be too coincidental that it happens when the zombie is 10 meters away from the player. But maybe he will answer and say that it was a measure to stop players playing in a particular fashion and he's glad they're all salty about it.

 
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I'm not saying it's specifically the case here, but people can do things for biased reasons while claiming - and even telling themselves - they're for noble or loftier reasons. I mean, come on, no one would seriously expect any member of TFP to get a hostile question like "You hate us! Why do you keep fighting us?" and answer "Oh yeah, that's right, hahah eat it loser!". Yeah, no. That's not a serious discussion.

Sticking to facts, we know there was a major change to in A17, with several tweaks in subsequent Alphas. We can look at very specific changes to the code, like TheFlu talking about the slight changes to when and how rage mode is triggered.

The motivations behind that are harder to nail down; players proceed by inference, much as historians look at laws passed to infer past behaviours. For example, this sign probably didn't go up for nothing - there was almost certainly A Guy.

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To go back to the OP, that's why the video triggered such a strong response, because here was actual footage of an actual dev articulating a viewpoint which clearly condemned specific player behaviours, which clearly a lot of players felt strongly about as an overreach.

This isn't so much about whether Rich's specific views were right or wrong (I myself agreed with him on various points), but whether or not those opinions reflect a more general pattern of overly specific concerns about player behaviour, obsessing over details of gameplay while missing larger context, or worrying that players are having fun in the "wrong" way, or even that there is a wrong way to have fun in an open-ended sandbox video game.

I'm not trying to get all on their case, it's very difficult to strike a balance between "we want players to have a very specific experience" and "we want players to be free to do what they like" - that's a tough task to set yourself. Some players, judging by the replies, feel strongly that the game has moved over time from "freedom" to "specific experience", and there is some arguably-objective evidence that this is indeed the case, such as the development of dungeonified POIs (more on this below) changing the way we engage with most of the world. When you attract an audience for X and slowly replace that over time with Y, there will naturally be some people who will wish to stay with X, so you're obviously going to run into some conflicts.

The real question then becomes whether or not the experience can be meaningfully quantified as a net gain overall, something which is very difficult to pin down - some complaints will be disproportionate or unreasonable, players change over time, some drop the game, new ones pick it up. The metric I try to look at myself is player agency: does a given change remove or add player options?

So, for one example, zeds digging downward through dirt neither removed nor added options, no harm, no foul. Dungeonified POIs would theoretically be a net gain in agency, where players gained the choice to follow the dungeon path, or just ignore it and bash through, except the specific addition of triggered zombies offers players less agency as it is strictly mandatory to set those triggers off in order to clear the POI and they can only ever be triggered in one way, so a larger change which added some agency contained a seed which removed some. Or everyone's favourite topic, jars (lol), where the ability to just get water anywhere was removed, which felt to a lot of players like an overall removal in agency because the freedom they gained from the reduction in pointless inventory and time management is less obvious (and the consistency in "no containers" helps newer players too). I myself made a mod to restore the ability to collect water from world sources, but I didn't feel like jar removal was a gain or a loss, it was neutral, even good, and being able to add a little agency back in was a nice opportunity which that change enabled - I could NOT have made a mod to remove jars! So in this case I saw it as a gain.

Zombie AI is a very interesting and complicated part of the game to look at in this way. Has agency been removed or added over time? That's tough, especially when you have to ask if players agreeing to use or refusing to use certain optimizations is granting or denying agency. I think in this case, agency alone isn't enough to evaluate the changes, that you have to look at the challenge, since fighting zombies is at the very heart of the challenge the game offers, but again, the question becomes whether expecting players to self-restrict from "optimal" strategies (i.e. "cheese" bases) is reasonable or a valid design goal, if it increases or decreases challenge, or what.

This is where streamers (or in the old days, forums) come in, in that they are looking at the game in a much more serious way than an ordinary player, so now designers have to contend with the fact that challenges will be solved much quicker than they would independently. They're also prominent individuals - loud voices representing a small number of very skilled players. In trying to design your challenges, do you design around the most talented players, or do you design for the "average" player who may or may not watch streams? Especially when you often have little or no data on how many players watch certain streams or use certain strategies? Players who do not can end up surprised and frustrated by changes to address a strategy which never even occurred to them, or which they already were deliberately avoiding using! It can and does often feel like an arms race in games design where ordinary players kind of get left behind - and believe me, it's a real problem. I have seen games die to this more than once, even when the devs were well-intentioned (and I've seen ones far less well-intentioned in games which heavily feature monetization, but thank god 7D does not have this, and even if they do the expectation is just some cosmetic stuff which is perfectly fine).

On top of all that, dev resources are not unlimited and few video games are perfect (especially ones receiving regular content updates), so of course you hear from players who ask "Why are we focusing on A, when B needs to be fixed?" (often without understanding that different staff work on A and B in many cases - but misallocations do happen sometimes).

So, on the whole, I do think most devs in most games genuinely believe they're trying to create the best experience they can, but at the same time dev teams can be small and can't always talk about what they're doing, while players are many and some can be loud. That doesn't always mean the loud mob is necessarily always wrong however - sometimes a gameplay element feels bad to large numbers of players because, well, it feels bad! - and it takes objectivity and real data to try and figure out whether complaints are valid and what dev decisions in fact generate the most fun for the most players.

I will also say, the most fun games I've played are ones where the devs themselves are having fun. 7D is full of all kinds of silly nonsense I appreciate, the goofball ads, the jokes in POIs you roll your eyes at, the zombie names, the parodies, the terrible puns, the details in a million places (Saddam's shelter as Rekt's hiding place LMAO), or even the hype moments when releasing new systems and experiences which add content and agency; it reminds me that TFP ARE capable of having fun at work, and I hope that spirit is still strong with TFP. Certainly Laz Man always looks like he's having loads of fun making POIs, which is encouraging. I sincerely believe that no one who makes games for a living should be doing so if it makes them miserable all the time - at that point you need to reevaluate your goals, your relationship to your players, and what resources you have at your disposal, whatever you can do to get back to a frame of mind where you're able to have at least some fun in creating a game for others who also just want to play and have fun.

 
The thing about conspiracy theories is that facts don't matter to those that believe them.  And assumptions on intent that supports the theory is more factual to them than actual interviews and information out there.

 
The thing about conspiracy theories is that facts don't matter to those that believe them.
The other thing about them, is they tend to become fact in about 6 months.. :)

You did characterize the digging zombies example as an arms race which I still disagree.
It's a small part of the general arms race; even if it was premeditated from A1, it looks like reacting to players. I don't think it's a "moral wrong", but I do think it's a part of the arms race.

wasn't targeting specific play styles with a punishing attitude in mind
Punishing? The claim was "they like to go in and kill it", no whips required. In that example it isn't even completely dead, just a lot more complicated unless you bypass the range limitation (which is prolly a tactical one, destroying random stuff more than 10 meters away isn't going to threaten the player). But none of the zeds do destroyArea without provocation, the provocation being "lost path" .. the main way to lose path is dropping. So to say "it's just variation".. well, then the "just variation" mechanic is being misused by targeted application 😛 

You set yourself up as Old Crow's wingman and they are who I was originally talking to.
I gave a few examples you were asking for; if that makes me politically aligned then no wonder the world...

Heh, for sports, I'll reply to a couple of his statements where I somewhat disagree from before I hopped in with the examples. (might be a bit redundant by now, but w/e, sorry Crow ;) )

I'm really not sure they understand what the term "sandbox" means in terms of games.
They probably do, they just want to mostly make a doom-like shooter by now, with looting and crafting elements. It ain't completely wrong, they've combined plenty of genres, some of them will become the most prominent. It's not a great use of CPU cycles to make a minecraft and treat it like it's static, but they do have the right to.

Rick and Joel don't really seem to like the game's players. Essentially if you don't play like them, you're playing the game wrong.
That's a little unfair, they do not like some exploits and by extension some playstyles, but I don't think they really dislike even us exploiters that much; much less "the game's players". Heck, even in the cynical sense, why would they care as long as it doesn't impact their sales negatively?

They're not really making a game to sell to others to enjoy - they're making the game they wanted to play.
This is prolly true; but I'd rather have a game _someone_ wants to play, than a game like Concorde :D They had some vision early on as they wrote their kickstarter goals.. I don't know how close we're ever going to get to that original vision, or if TFP think they got close, but that feature list defined the game when we bought it. They've obviously been making a game they want the whole time, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

 
They don't. They neither fall in with any regularity (they intentionally avoid drops), nor really dig out - if they have a path back to the outside. This does assume a fighting position with proper pathing "crossing" the ditch somewhere, but the force field behaves exactly the same, and requires the same - to avoid zeds from digging the sides of the force field / ditch.

I feel I need to pre-empt a "but this is a strategy only veterans will use" by emphasizing: the force field requires exactly as much expertise to function properly.


Ok, two blocks down is probably not enough to trigger rage mode. Maybe @faatal should add a general chance for rage mode to happen at any kind of drop, so ditches of only two blocks would not be perfect. Naturally then again someone would complain that this is an example of the arms race, right?

I don't have any experience with the force field, so maybe I am wrong, but I would assume a wall with the bugged arrow slits without any gap would simply make you sit there and only shoot at a few vultures and jumper zombies (if not already blocked by appropriate hanging walls and ceiling). Since zombies can't dig when you are level or higher as them, they can't attack the arrow slit blocks (AFAIK). And even novices tend to not fall into that trap because it is quite uncommon to create a deeper floor in your horde base.

On the other hand a ditch without a gap for the zombies to path to you would fail because they would all jump down then and attack the walls. That to me is a difference. The ditch still needs you to provide a path to you, you still have to deal with the zombies.

Anyway, even if I accepted your argument that a ditch were practically equal to using the bugged out arrow slit, then obviously it would not be an arms race as TFP left in the ditch while fixing the arrow slit bug even though it does not remove any "way of playing". The difference being the former behaves as expected, the latter generates unexpected illogicla behaviour. If they were out to destroy player options they would have eliminated the ditch as well.

It worked perfectly fine for its expected purpose, protecting a shooter from incoming fire. Now it doesn't, at all, the concrete lets bullets and vomit through just fine. Not exactly a lose-lose, but a lose-"no gain".


The gain was a fixed bug. Though the current behaviour of the arrow slit as arrow slit could be considered unexpected behaviour and therefore a (lesser) bug as well. Maybe fixing the current arrow slit is somewhere down on their to-do list, though the fastest fix would probably be to remove it completely.

 
This is prolly true; but I'd rather have a game _someone_ wants to play, than a game like Concorde :D  


Does that do exactly what it says on the tin? I shudder to think.

There was a UK mockumentary series called This Country where one of the characters obsessively plays flight simulators...in real time. He'll sit up for 12 hours doing a transatlantic Heathrow to LAX flight, 11 hours of which is spent  just staring at the screen on autopilot at 30,000 feet.

 
Ok, two blocks down is probably not enough to trigger rage mode.
They don't really rage at terrain blocks anyway. I think JaWoodle tested it lately, and they would not hit terrain in rage at all.

Naturally then again someone would complain that this is an example of the arms race, right?
They could, and they'd be correct. You're literally inventing a counter for my tactic on the spot, are you not?

but I would assume a wall with the bugged arrow slits without any gap would simply make you sit there and only shoot at a few vultures and jumper zombies
"a wall" isn't what I'd describe the force field as. It's a moat. Zeds don't think they can path on the block in front of them, even if they would succeed when trying. Zeds literally see it as air, the only difference is you can walk across it. Dig a pit, give it an exit, you're just as safe as behind the force field. You can use f.e corner poles to horizontally support a platform from the sides of the pit, to hover in the middle of the pit, if you want the full experience without actually using force field blocks.

On the other hand a ditch without a gap for the zombies to path to you would fail because they would all jump down then and attack the walls.
Tell me you haven't even dug a ditch in the game, without telling me you haven't dug a ditch. They'll mostly stand at the outer edge and start digging their way down. Sometimes the crowd will push random zeds into the pit via collisions. Give them an exit, they'll climb back up to join the digging crew. All the Force field does is prevent the need for a ramp at a corner.. big gains. Big gains.

obviously it would not be an arms race as TFP left in the ditch while fixing the arrow slit bug even though it does not remove any "way of playing".
The arms race doesn't imply a total annihilation of any and all things players do in the game. Breaking the arrow slit seems to have been more of a kneejerk reaction to some muppet coming up with funny designs around it; an example of the "competitive" development happening. Part of the arms race absolutely. The arms race doesn't imply success, or an end, it implies attempts on two sides to counter one another.

In the arrow slit case, they broke the functionality of the block, because they couldn't fix their pathing to support it otherwise. Something about the missing centerline makes it impossible for the AI.

They didn't fix the block, they broke it by copypasting the functionality of another block.

They didn't fix the force field issue, as there are other blocks to achieve the same result.

They didn't fix the "ditch issue" as that is what they like to see, I guess. Or JaWoodle just hasn't made a video showcasing the ditches yet. 😛 

None of that means there's no arms race, it just means TFP likes to go in and kill (random) features the players are creatively using.

Does that do exactly what it says on the tin? I shudder to think.
Lol, ok, oops. I seem to have added an extra 'e' at the end there. The name I was going for was Concord; I'd say google it, but I don't want to expose people to that clusterF, nor google for that matter... 😛 

He'll sit up for 12 hours doing a transatlantic Heathrow to LAX flight, 11 hours of which is spent  just staring at the screen on autopilot at 30,000 feet.
Yeah, I think the Flight Sim people got a little out of hand at some point, not sure if many are doing That, but there's some wild stuff. People taking their virtual radio comms way too serially, etc :)

 
No, but constantly defending them as if they could do no wrong and all of their decisions are perfect is simping.


Your problem is that you inject emotions and motives that don't exist into the actions and decisions that you read about online. Simping is being submissive and compliant due to the desire to be accepted and gain the attention of someone you are desperate to have a relationship with. So you see that I agree with most TFP design decisions and assume that it is because I am grasping for their attention and approval. I guess since you disagree with me and don't like my opposing opinions you feel the need to make it something derogatory. 

It's the same with design decisions for the game. You can't understand/see/acknowledge the reasons they give for their choices at face value. You feel compelled to inject nefarious motives behind their decisions (that don't actually exist) in order to make it something derogatory (eg They hate the players). 

It's your schtick. It's what you do to avoid thinking through all sides of an argument or a design decision that you don't agree with. Add to that, that you tend to trust and repost the thoughts of online influencers like Saven and IzPrebuilt despite the fact that these people have no actual insider information and it's no wonder you have a difficult time with anyone who might enjoy the current state of the game.

I sympathize with you that the game has been developed in a direction that you personally dislike. I think every gamer has a few games in their library they end up regretting having purchased. I know I do. I like 7 Days to Die and I don't agree with every design choice TFP has made but I still enjoy the game quite a bit after all this time. There are features of the past that I wish the game still had and there are features that were at one time talked about but then later abandoned that I wish they had pursued. I don't disagree that there are flaws with the game.

I do disagree strongly with the negative motives you assign to me for my actions and also the negative motives you assign to TFP for their design actions.

 
Does that do exactly what it says on the tin? I shudder to think.

There was a UK mockumentary series called This Country where one of the characters obsessively plays flight simulators...in real time. He'll sit up for 12 hours doing a transatlantic Heathrow to LAX flight, 11 hours of which is spent  just staring at the screen on autopilot at 30,000 feet.


Back in my flightsim days, circa late 90s to early 2Ks, the above was a common occurrence.  Guys ran virtual airlines.

I didnt do airlines, but we would recreate bomb runs from WWII, all with fighter escorts and Luftwaffe attacks etc.  6 to 8 hrs on a virtual scenario was not uncommon.

My prostate cant handle it anymore.

 
They could, and they'd be correct. You're literally inventing a counter for my tactic on the spot, are you not?


So we should simply say that "arms race" is the derogatory equivalent of "balancing"? I mean, if something in the game is too powerful (irrespective of other powerful items or methods in the game I have to add) a game designer should try to nerf, change or remove it. That includes idiotic behaviour of an AI. And it really makes no difference if it comes from a bug report made by a player, a video on the net, or testers finding this.

Fine by me. Though this also means I will regard everyone an idiot who uses "arms race" in a negative way, only an idiot would think balancing is a bad thing in games development.😇

An arms race usually means one side tries to get the upper hand. Now it seems logical that TFP are not trying to get an upper hand. Zombies having an upper hand would mean nobody would play or buy the game anymore because losing isn't fun. They try to give the player a task that is neither too easy nor too hard. But any "exploit" is making it too easy. That is why I don't think "arms race" is the correct term, as practically TFP wants to loose (the in-game battle for survival) no matter what, but they surely want the gap to be small.

Tell me you haven't even dug a ditch in the game, without telling me you haven't dug a ditch. They'll mostly stand at the outer edge and start digging their way down. Sometimes the crowd will push random zeds into the pit via collisions. Give them an exit, they'll climb back up to join the digging crew. All the Force field does is prevent the need for a ramp at a corner.. big gains. Big gains.


A perfect example where a bug report would make sense. I don't this behaviour is correct, it should eventually be fixed. Your argument is basically a whataboutism, and a bug report would be much better than sort of campaigning for a return of the arrow slit force wall (or force moat) because there is a similar AI problem around the corner.

They didn't fix the force field issue, as there are other blocks to achieve the same result.


--> bug report. So that the game eventually gets better and veterans can't complain the game is too easy. I don't know of any other block to achieve the same result. Do the developers?

They didn't fix the "ditch issue" as that is what they like to see, I guess. Or JaWoodle just hasn't made a video showcasing the ditches yet. 😛 


Yeah well, maybe it takes a streamer to make a bug either get noticed or go up in priority. Again, are you sure, TFP knows about this?

None of that means there's no arms race, it just means TFP likes to go in and kill (random) features the players are creatively using.


You can whitewash anything with that language. The only creative person in the arrow slit affair was Jawoodle when he searched and found this exploit. And he made a video with it. Kudos to that. After that there was nothing creative about the overpowered arrow slit anymore. It's application was shown in the video, even jawoodle himself couldn't really make anything creative with it after that, and all the other players were just copying. It's use also made everything else in the horde night game trivial and non-creative.  "Feature"? Nonsense

 
So we should simply say that "arms race" is the derogatory equivalent of "balancing"?
It's not perfect, as balancing can happen without an adversary. But it's close enough for me. You calling people idiots is entirely up to you.

Upper hand, would be both sides trying to. The pairing was TFP vs players, not players vs zombies. TFP want the zombies to lose in particular ways, but not in others - that's game dev, yes. Their end of the arms race is making the game function as they deem correct, not killing player characters. How convoluted are we going to get here?

Again, are you sure, TFP knows about this?


If their AI testing doesn't include a simple moat, I can't help them. Besides, I'd rather argue about whether on not an example of a thing works as an example of a thing on the forums than file pointless bug reports.

The other force field options; the devs have made some vague reference to knowing about them, but I don't care enough for a fix to a thing I'm not using to waste my time on it. Neither do they, it seems.

You're trying to argue the merits of a "fix" without understanding what it changed, or how the "acceptable" alternative to it functions. That's ... a first amendment right, sure. But not much beyond that.

You can whitewash anything with that language.
Yeah, I'm good at calling out irrelevant claims. Thanks :)

After that there was nothing creative about the overpowered arrow slit anymore.
So... "creative", in the sense of "when players get creative, TFP reacts"? So, now the arms race can only apply to something that is constantly being changed by players? What are you even arguing by now?

EDITing to add:

It's use also made everything else in the horde night game trivial and non-creative.
Again, exactly the same as a ditch.

"Feature"? Nonsense
Sure, but it was a bit tongue-in-cheek; reference to "it's a feature!". Sometimes it even applies.

 
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It's not perfect, as balancing can happen without an adversary. But it's close enough for me. You calling people idiots is entirely up to you.

Upper hand, would be both sides trying to. The pairing was TFP vs players, not players vs zombies. TFP want the zombies to lose in particular ways, but not in others - that's game dev, yes. Their end of the arms race is making the game function as they deem correct, not killing player characters. How convoluted are we going to get here?


No idea, calling it an arms race seems already convoluted enough for me.

So... "creative", in the sense of "when players get creative, TFP reacts"? So, now the arms race can only apply to something that is constantly being changed by players? What are you even arguing by now?


I am arguing that there is nothing creative lost when a well-known exploit is fixed. Sure we can postulate that someone else will go creative and look for such exploits, find this one and BANG another creativity explosion. I'll weigh that one person against all other players just seeing this exploit in a video and using it because it is a lazy way to play, and often inadvertidely destroying their fun in the game and complaining. And a few novices stumbling on this and being surprised at such a bug.

Again, exactly the same as a ditch.


Again, the ditch is an AI bug if it works like you describe. Faatal has fixed ways that would make zombies run in circles in the past, his intention is surely not changed, the only question is if fixing some behaviour is doable without too much work and breaking off other stuff or introducing new bugs.

 
This topic has really become a "them against me" thread, which was expected from the start of it.  It'll always be seen that way by players who want to see it that way, and no explaining how it isn't true will change anything.  It is a pointless circular topic and always will be.  :)

 
You're trying to argue the merits of a "fix" without understanding what it changed, or how the "acceptable" alternative to it functions. That's ... a first amendment right, sure. But not much beyond that.


I understand the changes to the arrow slit fix. I didn't know about the quality of the ditch exploit, sure, but so what. If it works like that, it needs a fix as much as the arrow slit. Period.

In other words: No matter how bad the ditch exploit looks it is no reason to reinstate the arrow slit exploit.

 
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