PC Rick has Opinions on certain playstyles.

[RipClaw]

I don't mind digging zombies in the least; those are legitimately fun.

I find them very annoying. When I'm working down in the mine and they try to dig their way to me, I always have to plug holes afterwards. Also, sometimes the digging animation seems to happen randomly. For example, in Horde Night, zombies will start digging for no apparent reason, even though I'm less than 5 metres away from them at the same height.

 

[meganoth]

For a real example, look at the AI changes over the years to address various supposed base exploits. Instead of making a variety of AI among zombies, it's always seemed to like someone's playing whack-a-mole with whatever base design was popular, to the point that the zombies now all have structural engineering degrees many players like to gripe about.

Fake history, sorry. AI was rewritten for A17 and there the AI was so strict that the term structural engineer was coined. All further AI changes made them less strict aka dumber, so they followed the optimal path less and less. For example they introduced a chance for zombies to just attack random blocks or go along suboptimal paths.

The only exception were how they reacted to block shapes where they simply failed completely, i.e. shapes where they fell down from in all cases or shapes they couldn't cross. But that didn't give them the name structural engineer. Or would you say a zombie that now crosses flat layered arrow slits is more structural engineer when even the dumbest dog in reality could walk over that?

Screamers showing up on Day 1 in PAIRS and summoning other pairs right away are another couple.

Now it would be nice if you explained how this change was a reaction to some player exploit (which is the topic here as far as I know). Unless it is your opinion that anything they change is obviously a reaction to players and is therefore bad.

 

[meganoth]

Sure; so were glass jars, you saying we're getting them back too?

Glass jars were removed for different reasons, not because they made problems with another part of the game. So is there a connection to digging zombies I do not see or is that just a rant?

Would you agree that a zombie "horror" game should have very very few areas (optimally none) that zombies can't reach? Zombies can destroy steel blocks when they are in front of them, wouldn't it be logical that they also should be able to destroy blocks below them?

 

[theFlu]

Would you agree that a zombie "horror" game should have very very few areas (optimally none) that zombies can't reach?

Would you agree that Roland was mostly strawmanning Old Crow, to pretend like it's news to him that TFP are reacting to player tactics in the design?

That's all I started talking about digging over; an example of TFP countering players. Is it that, or is it not?

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

So much bad faith in this thread. Not sure who anyone is trying to persuade. I’d be surprised if TFP didn’t outright ignore people making bad faith arguments. 

 

[Gamida]

On 10/5/2024 at 1:35 PM, Arez said:

I also think the subject that these two doctors are discussing plays a sizable part in why we see gaming social media looking the way it does.

NOTE: What I'm referring to has nothing to do with steroids or working out. Press play and you'll see. The link is timestamped.

Is he talking about turning us into Vulcans?

 

[Uncle Al]

Would you agree that Roland was mostly strawmanning Old Crow, to pretend like it's news to him that TFP are reacting to player tactics in the design?

That's all I started talking about digging over; an example of TFP countering players. Is it that, or is it not?

The difference of opinion seems to be the nature, or at least the intent, of the 'reaction'. I'll leave aside whether TFP are reacting at all, although it is definitely debatable to what degree designers are actually 'reacting' to player activity rather than just happening to modify stuff that's high profile. Funnily enough, exactly that discussion is being had, mostly light heartedly, in one of my favourite games - https://steamcommunity.com/app/2511500/discussions/0/4849904345517936419/

Except where you have studio representatives, usually community liaisons, constantly posting 'this is what we heard, this is what we did' in feedback threads, which very few games seem to have, you're really guessing whether TFP have a 'most wanted' poster of JaWoodle on their wall, as some like to believe, or don't have a clue who he is.

Assuming they are reacting, there seem to be two broad schools of thought. You can accept what they state: 'We're trying to avoid players unintentionally, or semi-intentionally, getting a sub par game experience' or go with the viewpoint that secretly 'we believe there's one true way to play the game and we are at war with those who don't play that way'.

There's no real evidence for either, but TFP have explicitly stated the former is the case.

Also note that, depending on how much you as a developer feel you need to channel a player's actions to avoid them getting a sub-par game experience, they could be the same thing stated two ways. Just with differening biases as to whether it's 'good' behaviour for a developer or not.

 

[meganoth]

Would you agree that Roland was mostly strawmanning Old Crow, to pretend like it's news to him that TFP are reacting to player tactics in the design?

No, I think Old Crows summary was a rant, and telling him to give examples is a valid reply to a rant. And I do not see that Roland says anywhere it is news to him. But I could have missed it, please show me the line. The one you are citing is not it, it might be that you read something into it that I am not seeing.

That TFP does react to players when EA and beta-tests are almost by definition a way to adjust and balance a game to how players play it, is correct. Though in almost all cases it is a way to notice problems or put them higher on a priority list, but the decision to change it at all is largely based on general principles and almost independent of how many people use it momentarily.

Example: digging zombies. In my mind there is almost no reasonable justification for zombies not being able to dig. In 99 of 100 parallel worlds 7D2D would have digging zombies, i.e. that is the normal way you would expect for this type of game and only a few reasons exist why a game designer would be forced to make them not digging: 1) technical reasons 2) they can't get digging zombies balanced or it proves to be entirely worse than a non-digging variant 3) overwhelming player feedback demands it and they say "to heck with our vision". I used the word "forced", because you would need a big overwhelming reason to go away from what the norm is.

And now look how it came about: In A17 zombie AI was completely rewritten as far as we know. After that zombies digging was turned on. Underground bases were used all the time, now reducing the change to be a reaction to players is, sorry, just the result of too much observing the universe as if it would specifically react to you aka a very ego-centric viewpoint. And a tendency to not want change which suprisingly many players seem to have: "I am bored with the current game, but don't change any of it".

Example: arrow-slits where zombies didn't walk over. Again, a case where there is no question that a normal game should not behave that way and like Rick pointed out, if someone stumbled upon this without knowing he would be surprised and probably annoyed from finding such a bug which would make the zombies behave different from expectation. Now the reason to change that is not even dependant on some vision, it is evidently clear this should be fixed. But it was probably players or streamers who made TFP aware of this bug. The reason to change it is that it clearly is a bug. The time it happened was probably triggered by the players. It would have happened sooner or later anyway, I don't think you can say the reason to change it was a reaction to players, only the time to change it.

That's all I started talking about digging over; an example of TFP countering players. Is it that, or is it not?

I hope I have explained above that digging zombies was not about countering players. I am sure it would have happened anyway and it would never have been turned off if there weren't technical reasons. It almost follows from this being a voxel zombie horror game.

 

[theFlu]

The difference of opinion seems to be the nature, or at least the intent, of the 'reaction'.

Basically the same thing, tbh; and acting like the player/outsider interpretation of reacting-to-players is somehow unjustified isn't helpful.

you're really guessing whether TFP have a 'most wanted' poster of JaWoodle on their wall, as some like to believe, or don't have a clue who he is.

I'm not going to assume JaWoodle was lying when he said he met QA, and was jokingly referred to as a "nemesis". QA would be stupid not to keep tabs on a guy providing them literal free labour in his testing series. They're not stupid.

No, I think Old Crows summary was a rant,

One liner, factually correct .. "rant". All right. There's plenty of ways you can read

"Problem here is, when players get creative, the Fun Pimps like to go in and either complain about it, or kill it to suit their "vision." "

for sure.

TFP .. like to .. complain OR kill it

Soo, complain about nerdpoling like in the video, or kill it like arrow slit force fields in the game. Not wrong.

And I do not see that Roland says anywhere it is news to him.

I don't know of any such things happening, ever, could you give me some examples? Oh right, that's just a valid counterargument to a rant, not ... "not knowing what he's talking about"..? Really? News to me..

The rest is .. pointless. Roland asked for examples, I gave a couple that fit; I don't care beyond that.

I hope I have explained above that digging zombies was not about countering players.

You have; but any such zombie ability is always going to be about countering players...

 

[Uncle Al]

Basically the same thing, tbh; and acting like the player/outsider interpretation of reacting-to-players is somehow unjustified isn't helpful.

I'm not going to assume JaWoodle was lying when he said he met QA, and was jokingly referred to as a "nemesis". QA would be stupid not to keep tabs on a guy providing them literal free labour in his testing series. They're not stupid.

I'd say challenging unsupported assumptions is often helpful, and that cuts both ways. Joel and Rick could be crazy control freaks for all I know, and drunkenly shoot up pick up trucks* while ranting about 'those damn exploiters'. They have tried to state why they do what they do, and it's up to us to decide if it's honest. I do think the fact they don't really appear to script or rehearse their interviews gets them into some difficulties. Things like offhandedly using the term 'exploit' regarding nerd polling which then gets taken by some players as 'they hate me and we are at war'.

As for JaWoodle, I was using him more as a throwaway example, but that's interesting to know. Certainly he has the soul of a tester - that compulsive urge to break stuff. I agree any sensible QA would use what's effectively free talent.

*To be clear, I mean 'discharge firearms into vehicles in a Richard Pryor stylie', not 'attempt to inject powdered Ford Ranger', although they might do that too for all I know

 

[RipClaw]

Example: arrow-slits where zombies didn't walk over.

The problem is often the way the Fun Pimps fix bugs. With the arrow slits, they changed the block to work like iron bars. A rather lazy fix, in my opinion. Unfortunately, this also removed a handy feature of the arrow slits. You could connect electrical components through the arrow slits. A godsend if you have 20 electric fences you want to connect. I had to replace about 20 steel blocks in my horde base. Oh, what a joy.

 

[theFlu]

You could connect electrical components through the arrow slits.

This is how I found about the "fix", during the next horde night. I used slits as a repair window for an eFence, except, now you couldn't repair thru it. Fun times starting to chip away at the wall during the horde...

The block is now also broken for its purpose; an arrow slit is supposed to narrow your exposed area while giving you a decent field of fire. Now it doesn't stop any projectiles, while still limiting your view considerably... unless you want to make a pvp wall hack from it, covering the middle strip so there's NO view to you, while somehow controlling enemy location.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

The difference of opinion seems to be the nature, or at least the intent, of the 'reaction'. I'll leave aside whether TFP are reacting at all, although it is definitely debatable to what degree designers are actually 'reacting' to player activity rather than just happening to modify stuff that's high profile. Funnily enough, exactly that discussion is being had, mostly light heartedly, in one of my favourite games - https://steamcommunity.com/app/2511500/discussions/0/4849904345517936419/

And one of the studio responses raises two important points:

1) Devs are sometimes aware of (balance) issues before release but are unable to fix them due to other priorities; and

2) Sometimes changes occur due to fixes to unrelated issues.

In other words, just because a change occurs does not mean it was a reaction to how players choose to play.

 

[Old Crow]

Now it would be nice if you explained how this change was a reaction to some player exploit (which is the topic here as far as I know). Unless it is your opinion that anything they change is obviously a reaction to players and is therefore bad.

I suppose in this case it's less a reaction to player behavior and moreso the addition of artificial difficulty in an attempt to add challenge.

 

[Scyris]

Problem here is, when players get creative, the Fun Pimps like to go in and either complain about it, or kill it to suit their "vision."

Exactly, each time players find something fun to use in vanilla tfp straight up removes or nerfs it into the ground so its no longer viable or fun. Its happened multiple times with many different things. Random gen is garbage in a22/1.0 because its essentally a static map now as most of the randomness has been removed from it. Making every map made boring and bland since it has trader limits and town size limits. Kinda explains how it generates the map so fast, it doesn't take long when it just has to make the same map over and over with slight variations on biome sizes. Even what poi's can spawn in these towns are pretty static as well, so they often even have the exact same poi's in them, across diff maps.

TFP is sucking all the fun out of the game, and its getting to the point that no one plays vanilla anymore after they try mods out, because vanilla is such a crap experience compared. Its honestly sad how some of these mods are made by a single person including models, textures, coding etc and has way more vision than TFP does with a entire dev team at their disposal, like what do they do there? sit and twiddle there thumbs most of the time? as thats sure as hell what it looks like with how the game hasn't gone anywhere since like... a14 or so. Don't get me wrong, the Art team does good work, the game looks way better than it needs to graphically, the problem is the gameplay is where it needs to be polished not the graphics. But almost every update is going on about new looks for this and that, but basically 0 new features or buffs and nothing but nerfing or removal of things. Latest victim in a21 was jars, water still is a non-issue even with how it is now, so there was no real point to the change in the first damn place.

A mod I play called Afterlife is amazing, the entire skill system is learn by doing INCLUDING stats, wanna up str? use skills that gain exp for str, and the base stats themselves also increase things like entity damage, carry weight, stamina etc, agility for example increases movement speed, crouch movement speed, and jump height. It also has jars return with a twist, you cannot craft them, but you can dump liquid into storage containers to reuse the jars, this is a much better way of doing it compared to removing them entirely. You also get jars back when you craft stuff like glue, or cook with it, drink whats in it etc. All this stuff in Afterlife was mostly done by 1 person. It makes tfp look kinda sad tbh. As the vanilla game could have been like this if they kept going with the a16.4 skill system. Afterlife also uses the magazine system, stats do not effect what you find, however, you can make a research desk where you can scrap magazines, perk books, schematics you don't need into literature fragments which you can then use the research desk to craft into perk books and magazines you want, its a far better system than vanilla.

 

[Old Crow]

 Latest victim in a21 was jars, water still is a non-issue even with how it is now, so there was no real point to the change in the first damn place.

This. All removing jars really did was keep things uniform with other items not returning an empty container (which to be fair, TFP did say was one of the the reasons they made the change), but as far as solving the problem of drinkable liquids being too easy in early game? It didn't make that more of a challenge. It just kept the same "problem" and changed how to get drinkable liquids. Dew collectors and boiling water added no additional challenge to staying hydrated.

 

[Scyris]

And one of the studio responses raises two important points:

1) Devs are sometimes aware of (balance) issues before release but are unable to fix them due to other priorities; and

2) Sometimes changes occur due to fixes to unrelated issues.

In other words, just because a change occurs does not mean it was a reaction to how players choose to play.

You say that but tfp has many times removed or nerfed something specifically to counter players, for example the sleeper trigger system was put in in a17 to specifically screw over stealth build players. Players that run and gun aren't effected by this system at all, it was targeted specifically to screw over stealth builds, then you have a22.1 aka 1.1, where they messed with stealth again as they realized the tier 6 assassin set bonus was way to strong. That set in 1.0 basically makes stealth somewhat viable, where as its basically not viable without it. Yeah yeah supposedly if your stealth is high enough you can avoid triggering the trigger blocks, but from experience i've never seen it work like that even with stealth skills maxxed. Haven't played 1.1 vanilla though yet, this is based on 1.0 stealth. Dunno if I'll bother with it in 1.1, vanilla just puts me to sleep to play it as its so damn boring compared to mods.

People used to like making underground bases and bunkers, oh look, tfp now has zombies that dig, removing that option from the players as well.

Next you have the screamer change in 1.0, they now spawn at 25% heat, instead of 100% heat, so now Run n Gun builds have a hard counter since you'll get a screamer after about 20 shots fired. Before you could clear a poi at least without them, but now? clearing a t3 poi is prob going to cause at least 2-3 screamer spawns during it. Again, this was done specifically to screw over/counter a certain playstyle

Need I go on? there is 2-3 concrete examples you cannot really argue against. Both being directly to counter a certain playstyle cuz tfp don't like it and had a hissy fit over players using it.

This. All removing jars really did was keep things uniform with other items not returning an empty container (which to be fair, TFP did say was one of the the reasons they made the change), but as far as solving the problem of drinkable liquids being too easy in early game? It didn't make that more of a challenge. It just kept the same "problem" and changed how to get drinkable liquids. Dew collectors and boiling water added no additional challenge to staying hydrated.

Thats bs though, as they could just add say making glue return the jar as well as give the glue, many mods do this, so that excuse tfp has doesn't fly one bit. They just didn't want to put it in was all it was. Its not that they couldn't its they did not want to, again if a modder can do it, there is no reason the devs themselves that made the game cannot. In Afterlife anything you make that uses a jar gives the jar back after, including stuff in the campfire like boiled meat and glue. Honestly that mod like most other overhual mod makes the devs of the vanilla game look like idiots, just because of all the new features they introduce to the game, and I do mean new features, some mods have completly new things that do not exist in vanilla at all, game mechanics wise, not just item wise.

 

[FramFramson]

Fake history, sorry. AI was rewritten for A17 and there the AI was so strict that the term structural engineer was coined. All further AI changes made them less strict aka dumber, so they followed the optimal path less and less. For example they introduced a chance for zombies to just attack random blocks or go along suboptimal paths.

The only exception were how they reacted to block shapes where they simply failed completely, i.e. shapes where they fell down from in all cases or shapes they couldn't cross. But that didn't give them the name structural engineer. Or would you say a zombie that now crosses flat layered arrow slits is more structural engineer when even the dumbest dog in reality could walk over that?

The AI rewrite in A17 was specifically the example being made. Watering it down since then hasn't really changed the basic model.

Again, the problem isn't a specific AI model, it's that there is only one model. You know how many blocks they will rage at, you know what they'll path to, and so on. And those were changes made in response to zombies being too "dumb" earlier on, but the thing was that the supposedly-dumb zombies were actually less predictable.

 

[Uncle Al]

You say that but tfp has many times removed or nerfed something specifically to counter players, for example the sleeper trigger system was put in in a17 to specifically screw over stealth build players. Players that run and gun aren't effected by this system at all, it was targeted specifically to screw over stealth builds, then you have a22.1 aka 1.1, where they messed with stealth again as they realized the tier 6 assassin set bonus was way to strong. That set in 1.0 basically makes stealth somewhat viable, where as its basically not viable without it. Yeah yeah supposedly if your stealth is high enough you can avoid triggering the trigger blocks, but from experience i've never seen it work like that even with stealth skills maxxed. Haven't played 1.1 vanilla though yet, this is based on 1.0 stealth. Dunno if I'll bother with it in 1.1, vanilla just puts me to sleep to play it as its so damn boring compared to mods.

People used to like making underground bases and bunkers, oh look, tfp now has zombies that dig, removing that option from the players as well.

Next you have the screamer change in 1.0, they now spawn at 25% heat, instead of 100% heat, so now Run n Gun builds have a hard counter since you'll get a screamer after about 20 shots fired. Before you could clear a poi at least without them, but now? clearing a t3 poi is prob going to cause at least 2-3 screamer spawns during it. Again, this was done specifically to screw over/counter a certain playstyle

Need I go on? there is 2-3 concrete examples you cannot really argue against. Both being directly to counter a certain playstyle cuz tfp don't like it and had a hissy fit over players using it.

They are changes that were made, yes. That those changes were made to 'screw over certain play styles' is a claim I don't really see any evidence for.

The sleeper trigger system, I would strongly suggest, is only in the game because of performance. If consoles could constantly run AI for 100 zombies without breaking a sweat, while also running complex listening for noise calculations for each of those zombies so they don't start smashing things before they can reach the player, I'd bet a fair whack the trigger system wouldn't exist in its current form. I see the messing around with stealth, and the entire creation of the assassin armour, being an attempt to keep stealth viable when the 'oh so very necessary for performance' trigger system screws stealth over so badly. The subsequent nerf to assassin armour was a perfectly reasonable balance pass - tier 6 assassin was too good when it was released. You could crouch and machete a zombie bear to death over numerous swings in broad daylight, and it couldn't find you despite you being basically embedded in the bear's intestines.

Digging zombies doesn't 'remove the option to make underground bases'. It removes the ability to make absolutely safe bases that zombies cannot reach with two minutes work using a stone shovel and a wooden hatch. Anything that makes the player totally safe goes against TFP design intent. That they have stated on more than one occasion. You can still build an underground base just fine, but it doesn't mean zombies just cease to exist for you.

The screamer changes, I would suggest, were made to add 'randomness and danger to the world'. Again, trying basically make up for performance constraints, which, in my opinion, is what TFP are constantly fighting against and kludging around. I think both they and most players really want terrifying tides of zombies all over the place,  but that's not compatible with having a game that will run on consoles and lower end PCs. Hence work arounds that only allow zombies to start burning resources when they're actively engaged with a player. Triggers, screamers, they're techniques for making sure all your active zombies are right on top of a player, not wandering around somewhere burning up CPU resource.

Sure, they chose to support almost obsolete PC specs and consoles. They could have said 'we'll build this to run well on what we predict is an above average gamer rig in three years time and screw the console market, they're all lamers' and I think the game would be light years better for it, but that would also probably be commercial suicide and they're a business at the end of the day.

The AI rewrite in A17 was specifically the example being made. Watering it down since then hasn't really changed the basic model.

Again, the problem isn't a specific AI model, it's that there is only one model. You know how many blocks they will rage at, you know what they'll path to, and so on. And those were changes made in response to zombies being too "dumb" earlier on, but the thing was that the supposedly-dumb zombies were actually less predictable.

There is the explanation wandering around that current AI is actually testing out rudimentary bandit AI, and they're a lot smarter than they should be, but I don't know if that came from an official source. Even if it did, that viewpoint may have gone by the wayside.

I'm really hopeful when bandits come in, zombies get stupid again, at least some of them do, but I'm not holding my breath. You're quite right when you say if there's only one model you know what they're going to do. Even if it was one AI model per zombie type, Moes just break nearest, Arlenes aim for weak spots, Spiders attempt to gain elevation and jump etc. it would add a hell of a lot of factors to consider to base design.

 

[Arez]

Is he talking about turning us into Vulcans?

Well, if our main purpose in life, on a species level, is to overcome our limitations then the goal is to become more like a Vulcan; to shed most of our automatic response systems that seemingly get in the way of truer autonomy. 

A lot of people would think that's crazy. But that's only because of what we're used to. And throughout history we used to be used to a lot of things.