PC Remove the absurd hyper-specialization in weapon-type perks

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Limdood

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I made a comment in a different thread, but This was a different enough topic from the thread I posted in to warrant it's own thread.

The insistence that we pick perks for strength and perception that focus in only a single weapon type is pointless and overly restrictive, and feels like a remnant of the WORST parts of learning by doing.

You're making people choose the ONE weapon they want to use (probably at end game) and perk into benefits for ONLY that weapon. If the person is new to the game, they have to even make this decision blind...they might choose gunslinger because a pistol was the first gun they found, not realizing that the pistol is as good as it ever gets. Even experienced players have to deal with potentially picking perks that have 0 benefit now, and will only help WHEN they get their ideal weapon.

SOME of the perks in the trees are already great, and the rest should emulate them:

Flurry of blows, Sexual Trex, the headshot perks are pretty much perfect as-is.

On the other hand, there are enough perks that fit into the ultra-specialized, must-choose-your-weapon-for-life garbage category:

Shotgun Messiah, Heavy metal, Dead-Eye

I think the Strength and Perception perks should be changed to give universal bonuses to a specific aspect of melee or ranged, REGARDLESS of the weapon used. Something like:

perks for strength:

-attack speed

-stamina reduction

-power attack damage (flat, not situational)

-knockdown increase

-headshot damage

-easier targeting (maybe head hitboxes 4/8/12/16/20% larger?...might not be doable)

-dismember chance

But make them work for ALL melee weapons...period.

Do the same for ranged:

-aim speed

-reload speed

-hip fire accuracy

-Fire Rate

-passive zoom (a small zoom not requiring a scope, signifying focused aiming...like a zoom of 1.1/1.2/1.3/1.4/1.5x)

-dismember chance

And work for ALL guns.

This lets people choose what they want to be able to DO better with melee or ranged, instead of what weapon they want to use. It keeps the perks relevant through the entirety of gameplay and allows you to keep the benefits you purchased even when you find a new weapon.

 
Hm, I never thought about this, but I think you are correct. I ended up going strength (sledgehammer) because of the way the perks are assigned points and don't want to use any other melee weapon - despite having 10 strength - because I don't have perks in those things: blades, shorter clubbing weapons etc. So, yeah, I ended up specializing around level 10 and I've been here for 100 levels now.

 
I'm a little confused. I just chose not to spec into a special perk, thinking that I would do so down the road when I had a better idea of what would be good for me. Instead, I took the generic perks which span weapon types. Is that not sufficiently good strategy to keep things as they are?

Anyway, I'm not opposed to perks which affect more specifically different aspects of combat, like you suggested.

 
Considering that none of the firearms perks increase regular damage, instead increasing aiming and reload speed, I think they are more of "lubrificants" for your preferred weapon. Investing in a single firearm skill will tangibly give you more finesse using it. Which I think is kind of realistic; bullets don't hurt more the better a shooter you are.

Personally, in the firearm department, I'm faithful only to my shotgun, as I love how simple it is to craft its shells.

This talk of perks reminded me of Fallout New Vegas. The selection of perks really set apart your character build. The Cowboy perk would favour revolvers and lever-action rifles, and gameplay-wise you'd really fight like a cowboy because of this; etc.

 
I am fine with the perks being very specialized like this, but I dislike the fact that most gun-related perks are garbage.

 
This talk of perks reminded me of Fallout New Vegas. The selection of perks really set apart your character build. The Cowboy perk would favour revolvers and lever-action rifles, and gameplay-wise you'd really fight like a cowboy because of this; etc.
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The devs are... I'll call it obsessed/stalker-ish with Fallout. Whatever you saw there, you will see imitated in 7DTD eventually.

 
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This is more reason there needs to be integration of A16 with A17's system.

I am a fan of a lot of the skills using the A17 (as you suggested) and others not as much (also as you suggested). The hyper specialized skills should be learn by doing like A16. IMO.

 
The devs are... I'll call it obsessed/stalker-ish with Fallout. Whatever you saw there, you will see imitated in 7DTD eventually.
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Yeah thanks for pointing that out.

There's a bit too much copying going on atm.

I'd like to see TFP push 7DTD in an original direction again.

Listen I don't mind developers copying working mechanics.

Why re-invent the wheel?

The problem is that they are doing a piss poor job of it.

 
My problem with the weapon-specific perks is that most of them are underwhelming. The fire rate and reload speed bonuses on the ranged weapons are always nice, of course, but the special bonuses... aren't often that good.

Archery: Gives nothing special or interesting, but just as expensive and requires just as much perception as the others.

Gunslinger: The SMG is strictly superior to the pistol, and magnum ammo is rare enough you don't want to blaze away with it.

Shotgun Messiah: Shots to the legs cripple? Why? Shots to the head kill.

Automatic Weapons: The bonus stamina is pretty useless to someone who isn't using much stamina in the first place. This would counter-intuitively be of most use to someone using an automatic weapon as a semi-automatic marksman rifle.

Dead Eye: This one I like in theory, but in practice it becomes less useful as the game goes on and it becomes harder to kill zombies in one shot even with a fully-modded Q6 marksman rifle.

Deep Cuts: Bleed doesn't seem terribly useful on zombies. Maybe it's just me.

Stay Down: Lives up to its name. Benefits immensely from Flurry of Blows.

Heavy Metal: Good for crowds, but that stamina cost will get you. Pretty much requires a few points in Agility to make use of. I like it.

 
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My problem with the weapon-specific perks is that most of them are underwhelming. The fire rate and reload speed bonuses on the ranged weapons are always nice, of course, but the special bonuses... aren't often that good.
Archery: Gives nothing special or interesting, but just as expensive and requires just as much perception as the others.

Gunslinger: The SMG is strictly superior to the pistol, and magnum ammo is rare enough you don't want to blaze away with it.

Shotgun Messiah: Shots to the legs cripple? Why? Shots to the head kill.

Automatic Weapons: The bonus stamina is pretty useless to someone who isn't using much stamina in the first place. This would counter-intuitively be of most use to someone using an automatic weapon as a semi-automatic marksman rifle.

Dead Eye: This one I like in theory, but in practice it becomes less useful as the game goes on and it becomes harder to kill zombies in one shot even with a fully-modded Q6 marksman rifle.

Deep Cuts: Bleed doesn't seem terribly useful on zombies. Maybe it's just me.

Stay Down: Lives up to its name. Benefits immensely from Flurry of Blows.

Heavy Metal: Good for crowds, but that stamina cost will get you. Pretty much requires a few points in Agility to make use of. I like it.
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The increased speed for ADS on the Dead Eye tree is immensely useful in pvp.

 
Considering that none of the firearms perks increase regular damage, instead increasing aiming and reload speed, I think they are more of "lubrificants" for your preferred weapon. Investing in a single firearm skill will tangibly give you more finesse using it. Which I think is kind of realistic; bullets don't hurt more the better a shooter you are.
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which is why i never mentioned adding damage, except solely in the cases of bonus damage that already exists (headshot, power attack (melee)).

Does it make RL sense that my pistol skill, shotgun skill, and rifle skill would not necessarily carry over to each other? sure, but

1) there are definitely shared factors that would carry over, and saying that i'm just plain good at reloading weapons regardless of type, or focusing my aim on a target quickly no matter what is in my hands isn't a stretch at all.

2) favoring combat style over specific weapons is a significant gameplay improvement, making it possible to choose multiple weapons for different scenarios or based on availability.

3) it brings some of the perks back into use. People avoid the pistol perk, they might not avoid a generic fire-rate perk that applies to all guns.

There are also no benefits on the individual weapon perks that couldn't be easily applied to universal melee/ranged without unbalancing the game or making things feel off, except the highest end benefits of some of the perks, like the sledge knockdown or the automatic weapon stamina recovery. They're level 5 perks though, so they could just as easily be added to a generic knockdown perk (for melee) or the fire rate or reload perk (for the stamina), etc.

I am fine with the perks being very specialized like this, but I dislike the fact that most gun-related perks are garbage.
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But the garbage-ness of the specific weapon perks is a symptom of the decision to have specialized perks for each weapon. Since they're clearly unwilling to give generic damage bonuses to the perks themselves, they have to try to come up with something else for each weapon, and make each one unique....but they're failing, it's underwhelming, and they still feel like they're all the same.

with generic ranged/melee combat bonuses of different types being separated out into different perks, you're still having people spend those perk points, but those points are easier to direct into the specific style you use....flurry of blows, SexTrex and knockdown chance because you like to be able to stunlock enemies? Sure! Head damage, power attack damage and dismemberment with a bigger slower weapon because you want to OHK enemies as often as possible? you can do that too, without even having to get a sledge! AND you wouldn't be passing over certain weapons just because their specialized weapon perk tree isn't as good (want to use machetes but think bleeds are garbage? Want to use a marksman rifle but the aim speed isn't the problem, the reload speed and fire rate are? well here you go)

A16's learning by doing definitely had it's benefits, but the one of the WORST parts of it was that i could use rifles all day long and become amazing at it...but somehow i still couldn't tell which end of a pistol or shotgun the bullet came out of, and, absurdly, THAT is the only aspect of A16's LBD that apparently stuck around...

 
The devs are... I'll call it obsessed/stalker-ish with Fallout. Whatever you saw there, you will see imitated in 7DTD eventually.
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Fallout is hardly the only game that does this. State of Decay is similar in you can specialize in blades, pistols, rifles, heavy weapons, etc. There are numerous other games that have similar systems.

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I'm curious, do you guys think the gun related perks are garbage because they are not working properly or are you just not a fan of adding faster strikes, knockdown and AOE smashes into combat?

 
Yeah thanks for pointing that out.
There's a bit too much copying going on atm.

I'd like to see TFP push 7DTD in an original direction again.

Listen I don't mind developers copying working mechanics.

Why re-invent the wheel?

The problem is that they are doing a piss poor job of it.
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I really agree here, there's also a lot of outdated mechanics and graphics/sounds that need fine tuning.

 
Fallout is hardly the only game that does this. State of Decay is similar in you can specialize in blades, pistols, rifles, heavy weapons, etc. There are numerous other games that have similar systems.
- - - Updated - - -

I'm curious, do you guys think the gun related perks are garbage because they are not working properly or are you just not a fan of adding faster strikes, knockdown and AOE smashes into combat?
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I dislike the gun perks (the melee perks are alright) because they don't feel fun and in many cases are counter-intuitive to the obvious role of that particular gun. Pistols get a rate-of-fire increase, but the Pistol uses the same ammunition as the already-fully-automatic SMG while the Magnum isn't a gun you want to have to reload a lot because it holds very few shots. Automatic weapons gain Stamina per hit, but odds are if you're shooting it at full-auto you're not doing anything that uses a lot of stamina anyway since the main advantage of guns is how little stamina they use. Shotguns gain the bonus of always crippling if you shoot a zombie in the legs, but they're very slow, powerful weapons and you might as well just shoot the zombie in the head and stun or kill it. And PvP/ADS uses aside, the main draw of Marksman is the killstreak mechanic, which is in the odd position of getting less useful as the game goes on due to the durability of zombies increasing and denying you one-shot kills. And then there's poor Archery, which just gets... nothing.

Off the top of my head, I'd propose something like this:

Gunslinger: The main advantage of pistols is that you can draw and ready one very quickly. Improve that. Switching to or from a pistol becomes faster with each level of the perk.

Deadeye: Instead of the killstreak, just have each headshot in a short period of time add a stacking accuracy and damage bonus to future headshots for a few seconds, with size and duration depending on the level of the perk. You're still rewarded for headhunting but it doesn't become harder to use as time goes on.

Shotgun Messiah: Shotguns are powerful, and this perk should reflect maximizing that power. Each level of the perk adds a (stacking with other bonuses) dismemberment chance to each body part hit by multiple pellets.

Archery: The main draw of archery is stealth. Reduce (and at level 5, eliminate) the sound made by bows and crossbows.

Automatic Weapons: So I heard you like shooting lots of bullets! Every shot that hits a target has a smallish chance of making the target Bleed.

 
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I agree with the OP, only dismemberment needs to be only for bladed weapons and stun only for blunt weapons (for realism sake). Also it would be nice if skills actually made you better instead of bending reality so a bullet shot by one guy does more damage than the bullet shot by another guy... There are enough other opportunities to have skills and not bend reality (aiming, reload speed etc.). Of course in melee category damage increase can remain as

a trained/strong individual can do more damage with it than the untrained/weak.

 
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well, its not affecting only guns and weapons i see this in other perks too actually the problem is the intellect . every single member would go for the intellect first because its the progress , cement ,iron .etc but at the end .

getting a forge will not make steel tools a thing and steel wont make steel tools a thing without the workstation which is another whole perk.

and this is not just it , this spreads to ALL other perks , the physician cant make his stuff without chem, which is another perk.

iam saying that because every time i set to select a fighting perk, (i like stealth take downs much) i find myself cornered coz of another intellect perk, its never ending , and late game ferals and rad zombies will tear me apart because i have no real fighting perks , its that simple to solve actually.

the already existing stations , forge ,chem ,work must be able to take so you can take it to your base ,(that is a solution) or

the perks under the intellect divided under other attributes meaning , iam now stronger (strength) enough to work with iron ,than steel etc

i now have more stam (agility) to operate a working station etc, they just need to think and put some time into it. or

they make the game a lot easier late game ,so i wont find 6+ immortal zombies running to me right at the door. BUT I STILL LOVE THE GAME

 
I'd also like it to be changed from power attack to normal attacks for the specials maybe with a lower activation chance, with power attacks in a17.1 being bascally pointless to use due to stamina regen stopping for a while, its better to just normal attack them.

 
honestly i like the specialisation, but the other perks have to be made more usefull in order to bring them in line with each other.

bow skills should give you abilitys when hitting key parts of the enemy, as well as preserving arrows more often. for example, at tier 3 unlock pinning shot, where you can keep a zed standing still for a second or two by hitting them in the leg.

the problem is alot of perks are kinda meh, kinda eh, or holy hell this is the way to go. case and point, heavy metal. with it, i am now reliably clearing irradiated houses that before, i needed guns to breach and clear into. ive heard other perks are realy good, but for me i am now sticking with my flaming hammer of eradication. :p

verity is the spice of life, as such, it should be key that each skill is made unique and good in its own right. hell, just change up the marksman skill to only count for head-shots. chaining headshots together (even if it doesnt kill the enemy) to increase damage. there, job done. suddenly it becomes a viable contender.

alot of simple changes can make the weaker skills more stronger. specialisation isn't a problem, its when that specialisation gives you nothing in return.

 
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