Realism, Immersion In a Fantasy World.

[Suxar]

Some people play games purely to escape and relax. Others play games to experience what it might actually be like to live in a nightmarish post-apocalyptic scenario. The problem with sandbox games is that they tend to attract both kinds of gamers...but those two groups really don't get along with each other at all.

Good wording. I play just to distract myself from real problems.

It's odd how many people are unwilling to do either and just want to be upset because this game in its vanilla state isn't exactly what they want. Even some of those on PC who could mod it to what they want refuse to do so as if using a mod to change it to the way they want is somehow cheating even though it isn't any different than if the game itself was changed that way. It makes me wonder if that mindset is caused by all the games that disable achievements if you mod the game, so it makes them think that it's a bad thing to do.

With modifications, everything is not as simple as it seems. No matter how many times I installed them for other games, in particular for TES IV or TES V, almost always they only made the game more boring. At first, you seem to get what you wanted, but then you realize that the variety has disappeared somewhere.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Good wording. I play just to distract myself from real problems.

With modifications, everything is not as simple as it seems. No matter how many times I installed them for other games, in particular for TES IV or TES V, almost always they only made the game more boring. At first, you seem to get what you wanted, but then you realize that the variety has disappeared somewhere.

That just means they were crappy mods. Not all mods are created equal. There are good quality mods and poor quality mods.

Take the STALKER games for example -- some of my favorite games of the past 20 years. But the gunplay was absolute trash without mods. With mods, the gunplay could be tuned to properly simulate recoil and weapon handling. Damage could be tuned to be realistically lethal. Without mods, the STALKER games were okay but certainly not great. But with mods, they were like... Roadside Picnic meets the original Ghost Recon 1 & 2. Perfect.

 

[Suxar]

That just means they were crappy mods. Not all mods are created equal. There are good quality mods and poor quality mods.

Not exactly. Let's take weapon mods for TES, for example. You install a mod on some sword, get it, and at that moment the rest of the swords in the game simply lose their reason for existence, they become ordinary garbage. The same applies to most other mods.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Not exactly. Let's take weapon mods for TES, for example. You install a mod on some sword, get it, and at that moment the rest of the swords in the game simply lose their reason for existence, they become ordinary garbage. The same applies to most other mods.

You just described a cheat mod. There's your problem right there. Modding a weapon to be superpowered is the exact opposite of making the game harder and more challenging.

You're literally judging all mods on cheats that you downloaded. Does that really seem reasonable to you?

 

[Javabean867]

So to answer the OPs question. Im not worried about realism. I do care about the game being consistent in its approach. For instance, everything else in the game has a pool of health to beat, why is it that locks do not. Lock picks should target a pool of health that once defeated can open the locked container.

As far as mods go, I always prefer the ones that add new enemies, weapons and enhance the look of the game, but not the cheat mods. Cough cough skimpy armor mods cough cough lol.

 

[Kyoji]

It's odd how many people are unwilling to do either and just want to be upset because this game in its vanilla state isn't exactly what they want. Even some of those on PC who could mod it to what they want refuse to do so as if using a mod to change it to the way they want is somehow cheating even though it isn't any different than if the game itself was changed that way. It makes me wonder if that mindset is caused by all the games that disable achievements if you mod the game, so it makes them think that it's a bad thing to do.

I think some of it, at least for me, is that I feel my suggestions will be a net benefit for the game overall and not just for myself. When multiple people see the same issue it becomes more noticeable to everyone and then if more agree then it becomes a social contagion which can effect change as we saw with the town hall. Sure we could have just modded PPE instead of badges or had the fantasy zombies but after a certain point a game isn't being made for the general public.

Civilization VII found this out the hard way by introducing systems that were not fundamentally compatible with what Civ players have enjoyed over the years and they effectively revolted causing the developers to make a lot of changes to try and bring the new game systems in line with traditional Civ standards.

This isn't to say you can't introduce new things, but if you do it has to jive and build upon the systems you have. For 7D2D the game has been an open world sandbox for so many years that even when the developers added things originally intended for the game there was a mass revolt because a large contingent of the player base felt unsatisfied with the implementation of the new changes and the general state of development as of late.

Saying things like we will get whatever game the developers give us is true at it's purest sense, but in reality a lot of what the developers add and change is shaped on player feedback and you need no further evidence then the town hall and subsequent posts on the matter from various developers.

With modifications, everything is not as simple as it seems. No matter how many times I installed them for other games, in particular for TES IV or TES V, almost always they only made the game more boring. At first, you seem to get what you wanted, but then you realize that the variety has disappeared somewhere.

What specifically? I know a lot of people who played modded TES games and love it, myself included. Things such as the warfare mod where there would be battles, large and small, break out throughout the map between the two factions in TES V was awesome and other than bugs didn't take anything away from the game. Speaking of bugs, that is a good point to add for the reason to not use mods.

 

[Sapient6]

would it be good gameplay to only need to kill one deer to have enough meat to last for a couple of months?

I mean, that could be really great gameplay. Bagging that deer would have to be a hell of a lot harder to do, but done right could be a real risk\reward win.

But that brings me to my main thought about this thread: it's not just about how much realism is the right amount of realism. It's about internal consistency. Adjusting a deer to be an amazing kill to land, but very difficult to achieve, would just not be internally consistent with the rest of the game, which is what would make it bad gameplay in this game.

worst offender is the triggered zeds that beam down behind you.

The ones that actually phase into place right out in the open are the worst. v2 removed a lot of the worst ones. I'm pretty happy with zeds "appearing" in vent holes. It's janky, but it fits. Before they spawn you could disassemble that vent and make the spawn in completely broken, but from my point of view that's the players peering behind the curtain... it would be nice if that was harder to do, but where it comes to this game I'd prefer they not make perfect the enemy of done.

Sure, the game has zombies, but it isn't set in some made-up fantasy world of swords and sorcery.

I think it is a made-up fantasy world of swords and sorcery. Or, at least, a made-up fantasy world of guns and sorcery.

Every seven days we've got a full moon, the moon is blood red, and zombie hordes target survivor locations with unerring accuracy. Maybe we'll get a non-sorcery explanation from story mode, but to me this suggests that the zombies are supernatural in origin rather than the result of a virus, bacteria, for fungus.

 

[theFlu]

I'm pretty happy with zeds "appearing" in vent holes.

Well, yeah, it's better than the ones that just spawn from thin air, and better than the cop that sleeps through a small scale war in the ceiling, only to wake up when you tiptoe across the next choke point.

Spoiler: POI

(In 4ever video, the popo station part)

But I still think it's wrong. In general, in this game, Zeds have no abilities the players don't have, so if they crawl out of a vent, players should be able to crawl through the same. One-block crawl seems oddly unfair already, one-block crawl through a slab of concrete pretending to be a duct grate .. eww.

I used to be a stealth player; haven't even tried since 1.x. But I doubt that mechanic functions, at all, as a stealther - the trickle spawn seems to follow you in the "Triggered by a trap room" -mode, knowing exactly where you are, negating any efforts at stealth. There's plenty I hate about it.

Upside is, they can create longer fights; but I've already spent some time waiting underneath a spawner, waiting for the next guy to crawl "out" to get one tapped, hoping it'd be the last one ... I don't think that's a "longer fight" I want..

 

[8_Hussars]

I keep seeing these statements made that this feature of the game is not "realistic" or that type of gameplay breaks "immersion" for me.

The gameplay overall is rooted in fantasy. How else would you be able to carry that 4x4 in your backpack or how else could trees grow overnight. Magical candy anyone?

A game like Green Hell aims for realism above all else. If you build a campfire in the open and it rains, yup, rain gonna put it out. You can only carry so much weight in your backpack before you can barely move.

So I'm wondering how much of the gameplay are people expecting to be rooted in "realism" while its ok for the rest of it to be pure fantasy. 50/50? 80/20?

As players we tend to conflate realism, immersion, internal game logic, and suspension of disbelief. Each plays a different role in how the game is experienced and "feels".

Realism
Examples: Characters need food and hydration. Weapons and tools degrade with use. Any container can be used to collect water.
Breakdowns: Inventory is a magic weightless backpack. Healing instantly (more or less) by consuming food or meds. Farming output is too fast. Realism can add tension and survival pressure, but too much (overly-complex crafting or harsh penalties) frustrates players. In the Survival game world, there needs to be a way to recover from bad situations.

Immersion
Examples: The day/night cycle creates dread. Sound cues makes characters feel hunted. The "ruined" world sells the aocalypse. Zombie Lore and easter eggs.
Breakdowns: Janky Zombie AI (trigger points, block preference, destroy area). Clunky animations and unfinished models and animations (food and guns).
Mechanics don’t have to be realistic to be immersive — they just need to stay consistent with the world’s tone and lore.

Internal Game Logic
Examples: Zombies always spawn on Blood Moon and seek the player. Base-building follows some structural integrity rules.
Breakdowns: Zombies sometimes fail to target the player properly. Traders are invincible safe zones with invisible economies. Weather looks dramatic but has no game play impact.
Inconsistency hurts more than lack of realism. When the game breaks its own rules (zombies behave unpredictably) players can feel cheated. Especially, if it goes against both game logic and realism.

Suspension of Disbelief
Examples: Players accept zombies as a threat even though they aren’t realistic. Magic backpack, magic candy, and other deviations are tolerated because it keeps the game flowing. Traders existing in an apocalypse is “odd,” but players allow it because it supports progression.
Breakdowns: When mechanics contradict both realism and internal logic, the illusion fails — e.g., zombies knowing your exact location through solid walls, or digging randomly in ways that feel nonsensical. Overly gamey systems (like magazines, and loot ceilings) can remind players they’re playing a system, not surviving a world.
Suspension of disbelief is a player’s willingness to buy into the fiction of the game lore, even when things aren’t realistic. As long as mechanics are consistent and don’t undermine immersion, players are happy to let things slide. Break that trust, though, and frustration sets in fast.

 

[8_Hussars]

If you build a campfire in the open and it rains, yup, rain gonna put it out.

One problem is that not everyone's "reality" is rooted in reality. I have maintained a campfire in the rain, countless times without it going out. We can assume Green Hell has a game mechanic reason, to put the campfire out. (I do wish the presence of rain would put out forest fires ;-) ).

One other example. Many 7d2d players like the older farm system and want to be able to use a hoe, plant in the ground, and fertilize with turds. Yet above ground gardening beds and flower pots are ubiquitous. These are farm plots; a simple mix of arable soil and fertilizer into which seeds are planted in a container.

They both are equally "realistic" but depending on a players background, and experiences, some would argue there is only one "realistic" way.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I think it is a made-up fantasy world of swords and sorcery. Or, at least, a made-up fantasy world of guns and sorcery.

Every seven days we've got a full moon, the moon is blood red, and zombie hordes target survivor locations with unerring accuracy. Maybe we'll get a non-sorcery explanation from story mode, but to me this suggests that the zombies are supernatural in origin rather than the result of a virus, bacteria, for fungus.

Watch enough Star Trek and you'll find that nearly anything can be given a science-y explanation with the right amount of technobabble. The Blood Moon's effect on zombies is somewhat similar to the effect that aurora borealis flareups have on animals in The Long Dark. That's not magic -- it's just science fiction.

As for why the Blood Moon occurs every seven days...well, speaking of Star Trek...how exactly would a Heisenberg Compensator actually work? The answer is it couldn't -- at least not with our current understanding of quantum mechanics. But that doesn't change the fact that Star Trek is science fiction and not "phasers and sorcery."

My own head cannon for 7DTD is that the Blood Moon effect is caused by some kind of radiation belt left over from whatever thermonuclear exchange caused the wasteland zone. Perhaps orbital nukes were deployed as satellite killers or something. Or maybe it was some kind of military experiment sort of like Project Arrowhead in The Mist -- again, science fiction, not magic.

 

[Lax]

Have to admit, there are some really well thought out comments posted here. Hopefully some can help others to enjoy the game more.

There is a serious love/hate relationship many have with the game, which usually points to people really loving the game and wanting it to succeed.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Watch enough Star Trek and you'll find that nearly anything can be given a science-y explanation with the right amount of technobabble. The Blood Moon's effect on zombies is somewhat similar to the effect that aurora borealis flareups have on animals in The Long Dark. That's not magic -- it's just science fiction.

As for why the Blood Moon occurs every seven days...well, speaking of Star Trek...how exactly would a Heisenberg Compensator actually work? The answer is it couldn't -- at least not with our current understanding of quantum mechanics. But that doesn't change the fact that Star Trek is science fiction and not "phasers and sorcery."

My own head cannon for 7DTD is that the Blood Moon effect is caused by some kind of radiation belt left over from whatever thermonuclear exchange caused the wasteland zone. Perhaps orbital nukes were deployed as satellite killers or something. Or maybe it was some kind of military experiment sort of like Project Arrowhead in The Mist -- again, science fiction, not magic.

As Arther C. Clarke said,

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."​

 

[EvilPolygons]

As Arther C. Clarke said,

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."​

AKA Clarke-tech

 

[Rotor]

My own head cannon for 7DTD is that the Blood Moon effect is caused by some kind of radiation belt left over from whatever thermonuclear exchange caused the wasteland zone. Perhaps orbital nukes were deployed as satellite killers or something. Or maybe it was some kind of military experiment sort of like Project Arrowhead in The Mist -- again, science fiction, not magic.

I think of it as a Dyson sphere that was housing a lunar nuclear base experiment gone wrong. Every seven days it has to release energy. It just so happens that the Z virus becomes hyperactive with this "radiation" that as far as the character knows does not negatively affect him/her.....yet.

 

[Ostentatio]

Arizona got nuked so hard, Earth's rotational speed increased 24x from the blasts and that's why a day is an hour, and the nukes were launched from the tail end of the moon and there were so many launched (specifically at Arizona), the opposing force of the thrust increased its orbital velocity also 24x, causing blood moons to now happen every week (especially with all that extra Arizona red dust now in Earth's atmosphere). The lunar eclipse is when the moon is in the Earth's shadow - in other words, obscured from the sun - and something about that situation causes the zombies to go haywire- and they already grow stronger/faster at night, when there is less direct sunlight (primarily only what's reflected off the moon normally).

So by flawless deduction: the zombies are actually vampiric thralls, weakened by sunlight but not destroyed by it, exhibiting heightened intelligence and aggression during a lunar eclipse/blood moon.

Why so aggressively target Arizona with that many nuclear weapons, you might ask? Well, one quick Google tells me that the centerpoint of the state flag of Arizona is a copper star - copper, for the taste of blood, and a star surrounded by sun-like rays, signifying the greatest humiliating weakness of vampires? It's mockery 101, Arizona was begging for the comeuppance with such insolence.

Bam, I solved story mode. Vampires nuked Arizona so hard that both the Earth and the moon are moving 24x faster, all because of the state flag.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Arizona got nuked so hard, Earth's rotational speed increased 24x from the blasts and that's why a day is an hour, and the nukes were launched from the tail end of the moon and there were so many launched (specifically at Arizona), the opposing force of the thrust increased its orbital velocity also 24x, causing blood moons to now happen every week (especially with all that extra Arizona red dust now in Earth's atmosphere). The lunar eclipse is when the moon is in the Earth's shadow - in other words, obscured from the sun - and something about that situation causes the zombies to go haywire- and they already grow stronger/faster at night, when there is less direct sunlight (primarily only what's reflected off the moon normally).

So by flawless deduction: the zombies are actually vampiric thralls, weakened by sunlight but not destroyed by it, exhibiting heightened intelligence and aggression during a lunar eclipse/blood moon.

Um. no. The Blood Moon is just an illusory effect which causes the moon to appear to be in its full phase and blood red. Sort of like how blood moons are an actual thing... in real life... but I can assure you the Moon doesn't actually turn red. It's just an optical illusion. As for what causes the illusion? Who knows? Increased aurora activity... Radiation belts... a futuristic doomsday weapon developed in secret sometime around 2034.
Or maybe it's the same thing that allows a Heisenberg Compensator to somehow break the rules of quantum mechanics: science fiction.

Why so aggressively target Arizona with that many nuclear weapons, you might ask?

There are currently over 5,000 nukes (at least) in the Russian nuclear stockpile. That's enough to "aggressively target" every state in the US 50 times over. Given the population of Arizona, it would only take 2 or 3 warheads from an ICBM (which typically carry up to 12) to kill almost everyone in the state since nearly everyone lives in and around Phoenix and Tucson. So yeah...nuclear war would suck pretty bad.

 

[theFlu]

Bam, I solved story mode. Vampires nuked Arizona so hard that both the Earth and the moon are moving 24x faster, all because of the state flag.

You write for Marvel IRL, right?

 

[Roland]

I think part of it is how much it matters to someone that the game takes itself seriously or not. The Fun Pimps make choices for humor or parody a lot of times such as paint being in the Sham recipe or the names of businesses. When TFP implements something to be funny or silly it’s going to offend the sensibilities of those who would rather that implementation be serious and gritty and not so juvenile.

The smoothies and badges were pretty consistent with already established rules of the universe but they were silly and irreverent implementations of something a lot of people wanted TFP to treat seriously.

 

[Ostentatio]

You write for Marvel IRL, right?

Sir! I assure you, such a cutting and cruel insult was unwarranted!