RE: Why did you like jars?

[Charger265]

It was broken regarding survival. Way to easy starting at day one already. Not that it is better now, still too easy, but the jars weren´t optimal either.

And a lot of people want jars back because they are lazy. They want to make a ton of jars once they have a forge and they never want to put any effort into water after that.

When you look at it as a survival issue then yes it was.. but its more so now.
I end up with more jars of water in the first 3 days of a play through now than i did with the old jar system. just from loot.
Note: this forces a play style to be loot goblin

Then add the fact the dew collectors (a passive non heat producing item) now induces screamers.. You have to wonder.. did anyone even play test the idea???

When it comes to survival the only way to stay true to survival is to make drinking water a long task. Very much like some of the overhaul mods where it take around 38min real time to boil up one jar. This i know will make the community way more upset than no jars. But even with that you just fast track a water purifier mod or build more camp fires. Oh and bring in more screamers... But still there is a work around for everything.

Really at the end of the day TFP's were unhappy with the bucket and 4 square endless water trick. So buckets were removed. Then jars. What next water from the loot table??? The whole thing is a huge blunder.

To add onto this, some people take immersion very seriously (too seriously? debatable, I suppose). Nothing against them, but I do find it slightly ironic that they complain about jars being removed when we can store thousands of tons of rock in our little backpack.

That pretty much sums it up nicely... You either go full realistic or have some form of game mechanic that provides a challenge without it being a total time waster.

I will still say that the whole glass jar thing is the least of our worries just look at the current state of the game. Either way they go, with or without jars it wont matter to the community if its delivered in a way that works.
Its that bad that TFP's even start a reddit thread about jars.. not about the idiotic design decisions they made... Its sending them up the wrong path to developing a good game.

 

[Lax]

I never liked jars. I liked being able to realistically gather water out in the world from natural sources. But I'm fine with murky and clean water in my inventory being abstracted because the idea that water can only be held in glass jars is just dumb. You can carry water around in plastic jugs, ziplock bags, water skins, canteens, plastic soda bottles, or literally any other kind of container.

Just because I hate dew collectors doesn't mean I like glass jars.

I like cans. Can we talk about cans now?

 

[Lax]

It was broken regarding survival. Way to easy starting at day one already. Not that it is better now, still too easy, but the jars weren´t optimal either.

And a lot of people want jars back because they are lazy. They want to make a ton of jars once they have a forge and they never want to put any effort into water after that.

Ok, so what's wrong with that? If someone wants to play that way, so what? Why is it so important to you for them not to be "lazy"?

Do they have to play the game the way you do? Sounds like that's what you're saying. If they don't play like this then they are "lazy".

 

[theFlu]

I like cans. Can we talk about cans now?

Sitting at a campfire, boiling myself a drink in the chili can I just emptied; that was a mood. A survival mood

 

[Lax]

Has a survey ever been done to see which Alpha version of the game people enjoyed the most? I know there's a general idea but an actual survey?

 

[Suxar]

Has a survey ever been done to see which Alpha version of the game people enjoyed the most? I know there's a general idea but an actual survey?

All versions. Each had something different. With each version change, I look for new ways to play. And every time I find them, the game stops being interesting.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Ok, so what's wrong with that? If someone wants to play that way, so what? Why is it so important to you for them not to be "lazy"?

Do they have to play the game the way you do? Sounds like that's what you're saying. If they don't play like this then they are "lazy".

Sure, people should have the option to be lazy in a survival game. That choice should always result in death, though. Because laziness is not exactly conducive to survival.

7DTD used to be far more focused on survival gameplay than it is now. Many people are unhappy about the gradual creep towards a casual sandbox.

 

[EvilPolygons]

To add onto this, some people take immersion very seriously (too seriously? debatable, I suppose). Nothing against them, but I do find it slightly ironic that they complain about jars being removed when we can store thousands of tons of rock in our little backpack.

I think most people are complaining about their removal, either from an immersion perspective, or because... they were simply a part of the game. Imagine if jars were never added. Would people be asking for them to be introduced en masse? Probably not.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 4:09 AM

For instance, there's probably still many people who are upset about the removal of snowberries. Feature is added, people grow attached or it becomes normalized (i.e. it's in the game), it's taken out, people miss it. I don't think it's deeper than that for a lot of people, really. Again, perhaps immersion aside (for the jars).

Most of the survival games I play have weight limits, so I wouldn't mind that at all in 7DTD. A certain level of abstraction is to be expected in even the most hardcore simulation (which 7DTD is not, lol) but being able to carry around tons of rock and iron is a bit too abstract imo.

 

[BFT2020]

Why were you glad they were removed, when they could have been changed to be more balanced?
Some very simple possible solutions - chance for crit to break x% of jars in inventory, filled or otherwise. Higher tier workstation/tool needed to purify water fully, so boiling isn't all there is to it. Maybe a higher requirement to make glass jars.

Personally I think the water changes are one of the least bad changes made recently. They didn't need to totally remove jars though.

I actually did try a few things with jars to see if they changed how they were in-game

• Modified the stack limit (lowered them)
  • Simply changed the task of filling up jars as a return trip from a POI or trader to a special run where I emptied my inventory of non critical items, filled with jars, and then filled them up
  • My conclusion - didn't change the availability of water or even put any consequences in obtaining water
• Changed the recipe for boiled water to include coal and cloth
  • My conclusion - did require more preparation to make boiled water, but again not really a change like the stack change above

Jars breaking randomly is not my idea of a fun game. Nothing else in this game randomly breaks so having jars do that just to keep them in, not a fan

Emphasis why I liked that they removed jars

• Dew Collectors were a workstation that collected water over time, but raised heat (activity) which would cause the game manager to potentially generate screamers
• Adds value to murky water found during salvaging POIs. If I could mass produce empty jars and reuse old ones, why bother using an inventory slot for murky water? Right now I find that I still bring home murky water from salvaging trips in mid / late game if I play to try to keep my heat levels low so I limit myself to one dew collector.
• Removes the only container in the game. Sure there were cans, but those were only there for scrapping. We are not required to carry around gas cans to collect gas when we are out. We don't have empty bowls from eating stew. It was the only container in game (other than storage containers which are in a different category). If we have jars, then we should go all the way and have the need for empty containers for a lot more materials in the game - similar to PZ. However, I am fine with this game not having the need to collect containers as much as I am fine with PZ being filled with containers. I like the variety of game play and don't always want the same mechanisms in every game I play.

 

[theFlu]

If I could mass produce empty jars and reuse old ones, why bother using an inventory slot for murky water?

It's a give-and-take ... I now keep my murkies on me always, cba trying to box them and they stack fine. So that's a permanently lost inventory slot. Can't say it bothers me too much, but doesn't really change anything either, just a "minus one inventory slot".

 

[Vaeliorin]

Most of the survival games I play have weight limits, so I wouldn't mind that at all in 7DTD. A certain level of abstraction is to be expected in even the most hardcore simulation (which 7DTD is not, lol) but being able to carry around tons of rock and iron is a bit too abstract imo.

Do you have any idea how annoying it would be for builders to add even semi-realistic weight restrictions? When I'm building something that's going to take millions of concrete mix (yes, I do this fairly regularly), having to make hundreds (likely thousands) of trips from mine to base to move all the stone I'm going to need would be a non-starter.

 

[theFlu]

When I'm building something that's going to take millions of concrete mix

Not advocating for "realistic", "50 kg max" .. but. That would be a self-scaling perception thing: you're now used to building massive things by yourself; but if you really needed to work for each block of conc, even the smallest forts would start to feel meaningful. Because they would be.

Of course, the zeds would have to stop deleting the efforts, "realistic" conc would be practically indestructible; not (only) because of realism, but because of game balance.

But anyhoo, I'm fine with the "faster rotation", we build fast, zeds destroy faster..

 

[HammerDano]

Not advocating for "realistic", "50 kg max" .. but. That would be a self-scaling perception thing: you're now used to building massive things by yourself; but if you really needed to work for each block of conc, even the smallest forts would start to feel meaningful. Because they would be.

Of course, the zeds would have to stop deleting the efforts, "realistic" conc would be practically indestructible; not (only) because of realism, but because of game balance.

But anyhoo, I'm fine with the "faster rotation", we build fast, zeds destroy faster..

the long dark meets 7days...ouch. a weight limit would certainly add to the grind.

 

[Adam the Waster]

Ok, so what's wrong with that? If someone wants to play that way, so what? Why is it so important to you for them not to be "lazy"?

Do they have to play the game the way you do? Sounds like that's what you're saying. If they don't play like this then they are "lazy".

I want them for realism

 

[EvilPolygons]

Do you have any idea how annoying it would be for builders to add even semi-realistic weight restrictions? When I'm building something that's going to take millions of concrete mix (yes, I do this fairly regularly), having to make hundreds (likely thousands) of trips from mine to base to move all the stone I'm going to need would be a non-starter.

Yeah, I do have an idea. Did you even read what I wrote?

I get it. You want to play in a creative sandbox rather than a tedious survival sim. That's fine. *I* actually enjoy inventory management. You don't.

I have my preferences, you have yours.

 

[Adam the Waster]

get it. You want to play in a creative sandbox rather than a tedious survival sim. That's fine. *I* actually enjoy inventory management. You don't.

I think inventory management is/should be important for survival

Thats why I miss the other stuff like ore. I don't miss the brass/lead items tho

If anything I wish we had more core resources

 

[Rotor]

I must play a different game than anyone else.

I dont swim in murky water jars.
I DID not swim in empty jars.
I dont swim in ammo.
I dont have a bicycle in the first week.
I dont carry twenty billion tons of crap. I hoard stuff, but I dont carry it.

Just weird to me all the claims of "plethoras" of <insert favorite item here>.

/shrugs

 

[YourMirror]

I must play a different game than anyone else.

I dont swim in murky water jars.
I DID not swim in empty jars.
I dont swim in ammo.
I dont have a bicycle in the first week.
I dont carry twenty billion tons of crap. I hoard stuff, but I dont carry it.

Just weird to me all the claims of "plethoras" of <insert favorite item here>.

/shrugs

Wait what?? I recon you're not that "core player", "real fan", "most of the playerbase" guy. Welcome to my club!

 

[EvilPolygons]

I think inventory management is/should be important for survival

Thats why I miss the other stuff like ore. I don't miss the brass/lead items tho

If anything I wish we had more core resources

Agreed, inventory management has always been part of the genre. The only game I can think of that is as casual about it as 7DTD is No Man's Sky, which is pretty casual even playing in Survival mode.

Regardless, Dark Sun broached that particular subject, not me lol.

I care much more about HOW the game allows me to gather water than I do about how much water it allows me to carry.

 

[Lax]

Sitting at a campfire, boiling myself a drink in the chili can I just emptied; that was a mood. A survival mood

Those were the days! Had cans of murky water for days! Who cares about jars when a well placed can will do!