PC Problems with A17.2 that aren't on the 'known issues' list of the patch notes

[Dimpy]

I thought about LBD crafting, where you craft each rank but that sucks who wants to craft a brown gyrocopter when you can finally make one?

Really it depends on how vehicle quality would effect the gameplay, but in theory I'd be totally cool with that. In fact, I think the potential for a crappy/unreilable/gas-guzzling gyrocopter could lead to some interesting situations.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Right now I had an idea where you find schematics for stuff and each one you read raises your crafting skill of that particular item by 1 rank. So you find 1 and can craft it, (brown) and read 4 more and your crafting blue. Not LBD, but it would decouple crafting from INT and players might see more ranges of the crafts right now its always brown and orange stone axes, yellow to green picks and blue/pink steel or something like that because of the INT requirements. Not that it matters much because damage is controlled by mods but it does bother me to not see the full gamut of color ranges.

Some modders I believe have already tried to work towards this solution, and it seems like a good one on multiple fronts. It not only introduces another element of RNG into the game, but further incentivizes exploring, both of which have taken a bit of a hit in A17, and then, as you say, removes crafting from the Int tree.

It makes books much more valuable than they (currently) are right now as well.

 

[FA_Q2]

I personally am starting to see the appeal of no EXP in the game at all, kind of like how Roland has stated he prefers

+1

I really like the idea and would love to see them try it to see how it flushes out.

 

[Wiset]

As I explained when XP was introduced, I think one of the most suitable way to give XP in 7DTD is to reward survival. It is a survival game after all.

So experience per time without dying seems really more fitting the game. And no more grinding : only staying alive.

 

[hotpoon]

The logic failure you're experiencing there is your assumption about why that percentage of players voted the way they did. "Is the overall rating post A17 lower than post A16?" is an objective question that can be objectively answered, but you have absolutely no idea (nor do I) why those players voted the way they did, and to assume that their grievances match your own, is why those claiming to speak for this "silent majority" critically undermine their own arguments.

I do have an idea, because I actually went and read literally hundreds of reviews. Even many of the positive ones complained about the same handful of things that the negative ones did. It's not a mystery what people are upset about.

- - - Updated - - -

Please don't use misleading topics to get people to read your fake bug report which is just your opinionated wish list.Its all there in a16, go for it. We're not adding any of that stuff, except over 100 new books are being added to A18.

Edit: You can classify some of these books as LBD, you go out find them, read them and gain a perk (improve your ability at the topic). There just isn't any way we can find a way to add LBD that isn't grinding and rewarding obnoxious behavior.

I'm not going to respond regarding LBD. I think Poppatot said everything I would have, though I would like you to give us the official reason why you are saying "♥♥♥♥ you" to people with motion sickness.

Also, apparently the AI is being worked on, so apparently zombies aren't always going to stay clairvoyant structural engineers. Was the "We're not adding any of that" just a violent reaction to yet another post about the perk system?

 

[Weazelsun]

The only LBD system I can think of that might work is raising attributes organically, instead of buying them with perks. But then you are grinding those attributes to unlock the perks you want. Is that really what you think is fun?
Our goal of the perk system was to not have random rolls blocking players from major portions of the game, like the minibike book of the past blocking players from having a vehicle, and to also let them play naturally. Just craft what you need, not 1000 stone axes to max out your crafting ability while you AFK. How is that fun? I think we accomplished that, but people keep clinging to the old system, why? So you can min-max in one day and be OP? Where is the fun or challenge with it? I and pretty much WE (TFP) do not understand the desire for LBD or can think of any case where it would make the game more fun, or a way to implement it without grinding or doing unnatural things to maximize your characters abilities super fast.

We ought to get past that mindset that players want to go back to spam crafting which was all the way in Alpha 15 when I started playing and even though I had that option I ultimately never used it. Alpha 16 fixed spam crafting anyway. I agree with this "Maybe attributes could rise from LBD", that would I feel compliment the current system and give players some leeway in choosing how they want to play and in spending skill points. Also having a return of the schematics and books would also be an incentive for players to actually go out in the world and explore and try to survive. I remember back in A16 even when the group I was with had everything to wish for, I personally still went out into the world to find the schematics that I still needed, heck going out and exploring is what makes this game what is. It may be a grind for certain players, yeah. But, I see it as a journey, because in the end by rushing you get past the content. Some would say an artificial grind is no fun and boring, but at the same time especially for me who plays solely on a multiplayer server, having that grind ensures that I come back and play.

 

[ktr]

So use LBD where it makes sense and don't use it where it makes sense. Armor skill should be more like crafting skill anyway, your armor does not and should not magically get better just because you take damage.

Agree on the armor skill - damage mitigation via armor should reflect armor quality which should go down as the armor takes damage. However, I suspect the problems with 'use LBD where it makes sense' are not small. The biggest one that I see is 'what do you do when then don't make sense?' leading to the need for another 'system' to control those aspects and that system needing to be integrated with and complimentary to LBD. I would guess that the more 'systems' one has, the harder it is to balance them all and make changes where needed.

Anyway I also like LBD because it gets around all the problems of shared pool EXP, which I'm with everyone who hates LBD by equally hating the shared pool system and don't see why people love that!

Personally, both systems are the old '6 one way, a half dozen the other'. I'm getting to the same places, just by different routes. Thematically, I favor LBD, but no game I've played with that kind of system doesn't have glaring problems that get more and more apparent as I level.

Shared pool adds all sorts of annoyances like level gates, forcing you to increase your gamestage since gamestage is based upon common exp pool, and restricting your gameplay as such because it forces you to play combat specc if you want to have a reasonable chance to win especially on insane and single player.

Caveat - I play nomad or whatever default is, so that may be a big factor here. That said, we had level gates in A16 and I don't think we'll ever get around them. I've also never felt restricted by the shared xp pool. I have to make choices, but that's IMO the point of survival games. Being the best farmer ever and rushing to that goal might feed me, but the potatoes won't protect me from zombies.

Not to mention lack of immersion, but that's already been explained enough hopefully. Not to mention, LBD gives you a much less possibility to have "buyer's regret".

I understand why people find LBD more immersive, but I don't think it's a universal truth. I know it isn't for me. I pay less attention to leveling in A17 than I did in A16. I go about my daily tasks and then, at night, spend points where I need or want them. Whereas in a16, I'd go to spend points, realize I need more levels, in say construction, and then proceed to upgrade and repair POIs that I'd never use to get there. As for buyer's remorse, I think just adding a confirm choice option would stop that.

By that, I mean, with shared pool exp system you have opportunity to level up a skill you have never physically used. With that there is a danger it is a skill you may dislike. Too late... you bought it, no refunds. with LBD you can just use it, see if you like it, if not, don't bother leveling it. Hardly any time or skill pts wasted.

Disagree. Typically, with LBD you have to use a skill for quite a while to see enough improvement to make that determination. That's potentially quite a bit of time wasted and you cannot transfer those point elsewhere.

Final pro of LBD vs shared pool - if LBD is coded correctly (Noting that in some cases, it wasn't), you don't even notice the grind, every skill levels up at roughly the same pace, no "grind" necessary... just play the game. Of course the option of grind is always there if you really want something leveled up. The grind hurts, is felt so bad in A17 because you need soooo many zombie kills, sooo much mining, to level everything up. How is this less grindy than A16??

That's a pretty big if. The beginning levels in A16 flowed fairly smoothly with some odd outliers like armor damage. But then you have to fire off thousands of arrows to see a single point gain in archery. Could that be fixed? Maybe, but again I think you run into the problem of needing to internally balance each skill and THEN balance those skills in the game as whole. That's a pretty tall order and while it might be the most satisfying for the most players (assumption only here), there's no guarantee that the time required to make that and code is feasible.

I doubt either one is 'more' or 'less' grindy, it's just whether or not the route to get there matches the players wants.

Complaints of some things that "essential" being difficult to grind using A16 system IMO is not even much of a debate for a couple reasons
1.) in A17 there is plenty of "essential" skills being far worse to grind. Take INT for one. In A17 you MUST have int to craft anything, yet if you specialize in it, you are gimped in damage for a long time, especially on harder difficulties

I've played two SP games without taking INT at all. It's not essential, but it is more convenient and far less prone to being affected by RNG.

2.) Again, the complaints upon certain skills can be easily addressed in LBD. Example - I believe all guns leveled at the same pace per shot. Meaning some skills lagged behind, Pistol vs. SMG. Pistol doesn't fire as much, so the correct balance is to make it level more per shot. Same with rocket launchers. I downloaded an "Action skills" mod recently, and I balanced it this way and it seems so much more logical.

It might easy for this skill, or that skill, but again, all of that has to come together in the view of the game as a whole. If it becomes apparent that, despite the flow of an individual skill, you level faster by - shooting, crafting, [insert other thing here] - people will complain that they now have to spam [x] in order to properly level.

3.) In the end, it is far easier to max out many skills in A16 vs. in A17, especially when you consider how long it can take to level up in A17 at 100, 200+, you only get 1 skill point per level, and it can take upwards of 5 skill points to level something up ONCE. So I hardly see how A17 is easier. TO really drive home this point, even with how bad some of the skills in A16 were (armor) it is still probably faster to grind armor this way than it is with A17 system once you've reached high levels in A17 where you need hundreds of thousands of EXP to level ONCE. A17 "Feels" better than LBD early game because levels and skill points come fast, the pain is not fully realized until you reach high levels. It is really imbalanced because at that point, it could take several game days to get a single skill point, whereas it takes the same time to get a skill up in LBD, whether you're a new player or on day 100.--> Some were harder yes, and again we aren't debating that some were imbalanced (like armor), but done correctly, a LBD system should feel so much better.

I understand that people might think there is a 'perfect' LBD system out there, but again, it's the time required to reach that perfect balance that may not be feasible. I'd rather have a non-LBD system that can be tweaked and adjusted easily than LBD system that's constantly shifting and being reworked because making gun leveling 'sensible' has now also made it 'OP'. As we all know, none of us will agree on what that sensible is anyway. So, there's that to consider as well.

Anyway this debate is silly because several of us ALREADY addressed certain skills that you have complaints against like armor, and we're actually mostly in agreement with you on it.
The ONLY thing A17 has going for it is the ability to "cheese" and max a skill super early, but only one skill, maybe two. I'm betting alot of people seem to like A17 because you can cheese it by maxing combat super early. If anything that's pretty overpowered anyway, which is what virtually everyone does, so there is no variety with that system. They should put level gates on combat... and then we'll see how many people are praising A17 =P I am only half joking. They level gated stuff like INT after all... If level gates were removed from INT, then INT would actually have merit vs. combat speccs.

I don't feel the need to cheese it all and some of the changes Madmole talked about in another thread sound pretty exciting.

TL;DR - for me, if the attribute system & shared XP pool offer the devs the easiest method with their current staff and time to make changes and keep working on other aspects of the game, I'm okay with it.

 

[PoppaTot]

I understand that people might think there is a 'perfect' LBD system out there, but again, it's the time required to reach that perfect balance that may not be feasible.

I know this only a small portion of what you typed out. I just chuckled when I read this part. You mean like the year and half they used to change the system all together? Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Cirion]

I know this only a small portion of what you typed out. I just chuckled when I read this part. You mean like the year and half they used to change the system all together? Sorry, couldn't resist.

To be fair, wasn't it only the last 3-4 months or so that they actually worked on the perk aspect of A17?

 

[ktr]

I know this only a small portion of what you typed out. I just chuckled when I read this part. You mean like the year and half they used to change the system all together? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Was that all they did for that year and a half? Will the time invested in the overhaul lessen the amount time they need to invest later? Would the overhaul of LBD taken longer? All we have are questions

 

[PoppaTot]

To be fair, wasn't it only the last 3-4 months or so that they actually worked on the perk aspect of A17?

Honestly, no idea, was just speaking in jest.

 

[Survager]

Maybe it makes sense to add recipes of different levels, for different levels of things.

For example there will be recipes from 1 to 6 levels. The player at any stage of the game will be able to find a recipe at any level.

But...

But the recipe for each level will require a certain level of Intellеct.

And player not read the recipe for level 6 if he do not know the recipe for level 5, and before that he did not read the recipe of level 4 and so on to the first level.

 

[AlyssaFaden]

They had LBD in Skyrim. I enjoyed it.

And you know what? it was dumb. I ran around jumping to get atheltics up, I ran around casting healing spells even though I didn't need them, to get that school of magic up. I'd stand there casting buffs continually, all of the time.

LBD is great is you only get the XP from doing real, tangible things like fighting/blocking and such, but spam crafting and spam-anything creeps in. It's inevitable. I remember sitting there in 7D just churning out axes or making anvils in the forge, and putting them back in to melt ... over and over and over.

It wasn't a good system. Don't get me wrong, it didn't stop me enjoying the game, just as the current system isn't stopping me either, but I can stand here and say "but it was kinda grindy and led to dumb game behavior"

 

[Jost Amman]

Right now I had an idea where you find schematics for stuff and each one you read raises your crafting skill of that particular item by 1 rank. So you find 1 and can craft it, (brown) and read 4 more and your crafting blue. Not LBD, but it would decouple crafting from INT and players might see more ranges of the crafts right now its always brown and orange stone axes, yellow to green picks and blue/pink steel or something like that because of the INT requirements. Not that it matters much because damage is controlled by mods but it does bother me to not see the full gamut of color ranges.

I love this idea! ... Please add this!

This idea solves three problems:

1 - Decouples INT and crafting level

2 - Makes you work to achieve better crafting like in the 'ol times!

3 - Can add RNG back into leveling up the crafting ability -> more worthy "exploration looting"

 

[RestInPieces]

They had LBD in Skyrim. I enjoyed it.
And you know what? it was dumb. I ran around jumping to get atheltics up, I ran around casting healing spells even though I didn't need them, to get that school of magic up. I'd stand there casting buffs continually, all of the time.

LBD is great is you only get the XP from doing real, tangible things like fighting/blocking and such, but spam crafting and spam-anything creeps in. It's inevitable. I remember sitting there in 7D just churning out axes or making anvils in the forge, and putting them back in to melt ... over and over and over.

It wasn't a good system. Don't get me wrong, it didn't stop me enjoying the game, just as the current system isn't stopping me either, but I can stand here and say "but it was kinda grindy and led to dumb game behavior"

Do you mean Oblivion? Because Skyrim didn't have athletics or acrobatics, I am afraid you were jumping for naught!

Did you try Skyrim with 300+ gameplay mods? If you expect robust, balanced gameplay from a vanilla Bethesda game, you will be disappointed. These LBD issues were (relatively) easily fixed - it was just a matter of tuning. The system is pretty good, in its fixed state, not encouraging dumb behaviors and such.

 

[audi0slave04]

Right now I had an idea where you find schematics for stuff and each one you read raises your crafting skill of that particular item by 1 rank. So you find 1 and can craft it, (brown) and read 4 more and your crafting blue. Not LBD, but it would decouple crafting from INT and players might see more ranges of the crafts right now its always brown and orange stone axes, yellow to green picks and blue/pink steel or something like that because of the INT requirements. Not that it matters much because damage is controlled by mods but it does bother me to not see the full gamut of color ranges.

I'm not a frequent poster, however, that seems like a really great idea in my opinion. Like, you know how to craft stone axes, but then you can find schematics that teach you how to make better stone axes (stone axes just as example). It will encourage people to loot and take more risks. Maybe increasing the loot chances of higher tiers schematics in hard POIS, etc.

 

[FA_Q2]

Do you mean Oblivion? Because Skyrim didn't have athletics or acrobatics, I am afraid you were jumping for naught!
Did you try Skyrim with 300+ gameplay mods? If you expect robust, balanced gameplay from a vanilla Bethesda game, you will be disappointed. These LBD issues were (relatively) easily fixed - it was just a matter of tuning. The system is pretty good, in its fixed state, not encouraging dumb behaviors and such.

I did.

None of them fixed the atrocious LBD system. Skyrim was a fair game but their leveling system was always broken in the elder scrolls games.

What about fallout 4? That was the very first Bethsada game that I actually felt I could play in vanilla. Granted - I still have about 30 mods on that game as well but they are not so damn critical. I cant play Skyrim for more than an hour in vanilla before the game becomes complete trash.

 

[RestInPieces]

I did.
None of them fixed the atrocious LBD system. Skyrim was a fair game but their leveling system was always broken in the elder scrolls games.

What about fallout 4? That was the very first Bethsada game that I actually felt I could play in vanilla. Granted - I still have about 30 mods on that game as well but they are not so damn critical. I cant play Skyrim for more than an hour in vanilla before the game becomes complete trash.

Which mods that you used attempted to fix LDB and failed to do so? Give me one example.

Skyrim vanilla is trash, on this I agree. Fallout 4 cannot become a proper rpg even with mods and is nothing more than the final nail on the coffin of an once great series, turned into a mobile-like game abominations with 4 and 76, imho, always.

 

[FA_Q2]

Which mods that you used attempted to fix LDB and failed to do so? Give me one example.Skyrim vanilla is trash, on this I agree. Fallout 4 cannot become a proper rpg even with mods and is nothing more than the final nail on the coffin of an once great series, turned into a mobile-like game abominations with 4 and 76, imho, always.

Skyrim RE. Requiem. Off the top of my head - been awhile since I played Skyrim but I remember those because how massive the changes were.

I like total rework MODS because, man, Skyrim really needed to be overhauled.

Edit

I actually like FO4 but I am also a major FPS fan from the good 'ol Wolfenstein 3D days. The hybrid of FPS and RPG actually worked rather well in that game IMHO. Not so many game crippling bugs either - something that I just cannot accept with Bethsada products - the number of bugs in them is typically staggering.

I think 76 killed it. I cant find anyone that has anything positive to say about that game.

 

[RestInPieces]

Skyrim RE. Requiem. Off the top of my head - been awhile since I played Skyrim but I remember those because how massive the changes were.
I like total rework MODS because, man, Skyrim really needed to be overhauled.

True. Requiem is a great mod and improves most things in the game. Its economy is pretty strict too, which helps, for example, with spam/LBD crafting, but doesn't fix it. It's the combination of Requiem and Complete Crafting Overhaul that fixes it. The changes it makes simply do not allow you to spam craft with Requiem's economy - plus lower level recipes quickly lose their teaching value - which makes sense.

I would link my list of mods but it's been years and haven't kept it. There are plenty of other secondary mods that disable xp in some situations, add diminishing returns or multipliers depending on states, so that LBD feels as natural as possible. Anyway...

I actually like FO4 but I am also a major FPS fan from the good 'ol Wolfenstein 3D days. The hybrid of FPS and RPG actually worked rather well in that game IMHO. Not so many game crippling bugs either - something that I just cannot accept with Bethsada products - the number of bugs in them is typically staggering.
I think 76 killed it. I cant find anyone that has anything positive to say about that game.

Ah, I do enjoy the occasional fps but I am much more of an rpg person. If I manage to ignore it is a fallout game, my nerd rage might subside! But they did piss on some of my best gaming memories with that dialogue system.