PC Primary/secondary attack changes and harvesting...

So let's put it this way then. Instead of saying they are not worth it, let's say they are not worth it until level 30+ with multiple perks.

I doubt anyone can keep a straight face and say that being able to exclusively spam "power attacks" was good gameplay. ;) It's experimental. Mistakes were made and corrected.
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As if saying the current state is an overbalance means I think it was better in the complete opposite direction.

 
So let's put it this way then. Instead of saying they are not worth it, let's say they are not worth it until level 30+ with multiple perks.


As if saying the current state is an overbalance means I think it was better in the complete opposite direction.
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and in "on paper" and "situationally" and you have a deal. (at least I think, still haven't done math, nor do i plan to)

 
In your second paragraph you are looking at it too simply also. Factor in a couple levels of Sex Rex, My sledge only takes 50/120 ish to do a power attack.
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Well, people are cherry-picking their arguments. Can't blame them for trying. ;)

If you want to effectively use a heavy weapon like a sledgehammer at level 1 you will struggle. Go figure.

If you want to be good at melee with {insert weapon} you will want the perks that support that.

If you are into melee with a hammer "at the level at which you can craft it" (which is an arbitrary number and has nothing to do with using one...) you would have 130 stamina and the PA costs you 63.

 
Of course, since you were quoting the previous x3 modifier that required level 100.
I doubt anyone can keep a straight face and say that being able to exclusively spam "power attacks" was good gameplay. ;)

It's experimental. Mistakes were made and corrected.

Yes, a power attack with a sledgehammer can do over 600 damage.
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Where can i see how much live the diffrent zombies have ?

 
Lol, I can understand having to deal with people complaining on the forums all day, but the level of disdain is quite amusing really. If ya'll like the changes, more power to you I guess.

 
Lol, I can understand having to deal with people complaining on the forums all day, but the level of disdain is quite amusing really. If ya'll like the changes, more power to you I guess.
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Hard to not like obvious improvements from the last build. There is no negatives to this particular change.

 
Ah, I realized I mixed up entity and block damage before thinking fireaxe. Before it was 2x stamina for 2.3x damage, not 3x. I think the sledge hammer was 2.7x though if not mistaken.

 
I havent tested it, so just answering from what Im reading here.

They are talking about reward vs cost, but for the numbers Im reading, the reward looks too little for the cost.

On one hand they are trying to make power attack something you just do sometimes. Thats fine, how it should be IMO.

But on the other, for it to be worth, you need to spend several perks.

I think they did the right thing, but just double limitations. Dont make it only good in special occasions, and at the same time only if you perked for it. Id say it should be always worth in special occasions, and if you perk for it, even better and maybe even worth outside of those special occasions.

 
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So before it was roughly 2x stamina for 3x damage. Now it is 3x stamina for 2x damage. Which is a completely reasonable nerf. But I tried it out in-game and the stam freeze ontop of that is just awful. Absolutely awful. That is getting modded out for sure. Taking 50-60 stam per power attack is plenty to prevent power attack spam imo.
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Power attack is supposed to be used only when necessary, not on each zombie/rock, etc.

 
Do as you wish, of course, but having a recovery moment makes the move more risky and something that must be considered rather than an automatic press if you have the stamina. Just because you have the stamina to pull it off do you also have the space and time available for the recovery IF the zombie doesn't go down or if you miss or if there are multiple enemies close by? It makes the choice more interesting.
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I guess it must be me but everything you just described....I just can't understand why anyone would find that gameplay good. Basically each swing I need to keep taking my eye off the game to look at a bar and repeat an annoying mental calculation just to determine whether doing a power attack next will be good...or fatal.

As for mining, bottom line is it is now slower than it was. More resource per rock/tree but less per minute. And it was already boringly, tediously slow.

 
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But a16 was the biggest "hello kitty" "fluffy bunny" version that I can remember. Thats the problem. People got used to ez mindless gameplay .
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When you become OP in A17, it is even more fluffy bunny than A16.4 ever was (2-3 shotting Irradiated cops) and this occurs MUCH earlier than it ever did in A16.4. I guess you just haven't got that far in A17.

- - - Updated - - -

Looting less interesting?
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Looting no longer necessary, once you hit level 100-ish.

 
I guess it must be me but everything you just described....I just can't understand why anyone would find that gameplay good. Basically each swing I need to keep taking my eye off the game to look at a bar and repeat an annoying mental calculation just to determine whether doing a power attack next will be good...or fatal.
As for mining, bottom line is it is now slower than it was. More resource per rock/tree but less per minute. And it was already boringly, tediously slow.
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I haven't mined in the newest updat but if it is indeed slower thats a terrible mistake. You're 100% correct. Mining was already slow and boring, at least in early game, it did get better later. And if they slowed it even more that is a shame. Dont know why you want to have parts of your early game so damn boring and uninspired. They really dont seem to care about builders

I wont even bother making a horde base till 20.

 
Base building is honestly not much different from A15 or A16 it terms of time spent. In prior versions, I’d spend several days making a base for the first 7 day horde. It’s about the same now. It takes me a little longer in A17 but part of that is learning how to do it efficiently. If I don’t feel like putting. In the time I’ll just convert a POI. As to power attacks, I use them when I’m full stamina and switch to regular attacks when I run out. I’ve gotten a couple of one hit kills with a club and so they are definitely more powerful when you get the right roll.

 
Base building is honestly not much different from A15 or A16 it terms of time spent. In prior versions, I’d spend several days making a base for the first 7 day horde. It’s about the same now. It takes me a little longer in A17 but part of that is learning how to do it efficiently. If I don’t feel like putting. In the time I’ll just convert a POI. As to power attacks, I use them when I’m full stamina and switch to regular attacks when I run out. I’ve gotten a couple of one hit kills with a club and so they are definitely more powerful when you get the right roll.
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Sorry but there's no way it takes the same amount of time to gather the resources in 17, using stone tools, than 16, having iron tools on day 1.

 
I thought Power Attack was supposed to be Spammed. I remember MadMole saying if you are not power attacking every swing, you are doing it wrong...

I dont want something for nothing...but i also dont want to micro manage a bar in the middle of combat.

If it is intended to be something for special occasions, it should be removed from right click completely/made a normal swing (or maybe a light damage AoE swing) and handled solely via perks that do additional damage after x hits.

Maybe just make it do a normal swing if there is not enough stamina? Or scale the damage based on how much stamina is available? Having to constantly look at a bar in the lower corner or doing nothing when you click seems kinda broken from an immersion standpoint.

 
Dont know why you want to have parts of your early game so damn boring and uninspired. They really dont seem to care about builders
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Because the other option was to create endgame content. Once having a secure base, players got bored and asked for more content.

Slowing early progression (at least the gathering/building part), and making our bases less secure, is easier than creating new content.

 
So before it was roughly 2x stamina for 3x damage. Now it is 3x stamina for 2x damage. Which is a completely reasonable nerf. But I tried it out in-game and the stam freeze ontop of that is just awful. Absolutely awful. That is getting modded out for sure. Taking 50-60 stam per power attack is plenty to prevent power attack spam imo.
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In b208, I needed a few ranks of the head damage perk, a sizable strength bonus, and a few mods in a sledgehammer to kill a regular Male zombie in 1 headshot on nomad. In b221, I used a 1- mod sledge with 4 strength and NO supporting mods to do the same thing. Sounds like a damage increase, not a reduction.

Also, the TIME benefit of power attacks needed to be addressed. The direction seems to be "we don't EVER want you spamming only power attack," so if it was only increased cost, it would get perked and modded down and people would be back to spamming it, even with 3x cost and2x benefit... because that's still taking down zombies 4x faster.

It most certainly requires a new mindset, but power attack is most certainly still usable. My biggest gripe with it is that it makes the nonsensical pinpoint melee targeting even more punishing... if i miss with a power attack (regardless of the fact that the zombie just moved his head further along the arc the weapon was already traveling), the regen pause makes it even more punishing than before

 
Because the other option was to create endgame content. Once having a secure base, players got bored and asked for more content.Slowing early progression (at least the gathering/building part), and making our bases less secure, is easier than creating new content.
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Sad but true

 
I haven't mined in the newest updat but if it is indeed slower thats a terrible mistake. You're 100% correct. Mining was already slow and boring, at least in early game, it did get better later. And if they slowed it even more that is a shame. Dont know why you want to have parts of your early game so damn boring and uninspired. They really dont seem to care about builders
I wont even bother making a horde base till 20.
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Why anybody even tries to make a base before lvl 20 is beyond me. If you woke up naked in the forest and realized everyone was a zombie, would you tie a rock to a stick and try to build a house? there is other options besides that when u first start out. Like making due until you get a hold of the tools you need to build something.

When I hit level 20 I made some tools and went and mined. With perks I was 5 shotting rock and getting 12k rocks in a night and getting 2k rocks before I had to rest. (for about 5 seconds) Maybe you guys should test it out before passing judgement.

 
Why anybody even tries to make a base before lvl 20 is beyond me.
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Because it's what makes this game the best survival game out there. I can assure you it sure isnt the combat system

 
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