PC Primary/secondary attack changes and harvesting...

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Deceptive Pastry

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Ok so just looking at the iron fireaxe... comparing old to new

Old:

Block damage - 30

Power attack block damage increase of +200% - 90 damage to block.

Power attack StaminaLoss base_add was I believe 24-25?

New:

Block damage - 30

But with the new +45% modifier on wood - 43.5

Power attack block damage increase now +100% - 60 damage, 87 with wood modifier

Power attack StaminaLoss base_add is now 54!

So essentially given that they want you to be using primary attacks now, even with the bonus damage, trees are going to take twice as long to cut down it seems?

900 hp tree - 21 hits

1200 hp tree - 28 hits

 
miner69er works on reg attacks now, and reg attacks give more total resources...

I honestly don't mind the changes....in B208 i was using nothing but power attack, all the time for everything....why have left click in that case?

Now i can use power attacks in fighting as needed, but resources are normal

 
miner69er works on reg attacks now, and reg attacks give more total resources...
I honestly don't mind the changes....in B208 i was using nothing but power attack, all the time for everything....why have left click in that case?

Now i can use power attacks in fighting as needed, but resources are normal
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DING! DING! DING! Exactly this.

 
I liked doing nothing but power attacks on rocks- It made my guy make james brownesque like singing grunting sounds.

Oh well, back to the world of no grunts...

 
I liked doing nothing but power attacks on rocks- It made my guy make james brownesque like singing grunting sounds.Oh well, back to the world of no grunts...
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I hated the grunts. Unless my sound was cranked up super loud to tell the difference (and sometimes even then), they sounded like zombie sounds, and it would constantly feel like I was being approached. I don't mind being kept on edge, but the fact that I can be approached and punched at any time does that quite well. I don't need the "help" of poor sound design.

 
So before it was roughly 2x stamina for 3x damage. Now it is 3x stamina for 2x damage. Which is a completely reasonable nerf. But I tried it out in-game and the stam freeze ontop of that is just awful. Absolutely awful. That is getting modded out for sure. Taking 50-60 stam per power attack is plenty to prevent power attack spam imo.

 
So before it was roughly 2x stamina for 3x damage. Now it is 3x stamina for 2x damage. Which is a completely reasonable nerf. But I tried it out in-game and the stam freeze ontop of that is just awful. Absolutely awful. That is getting modded out for sure. Taking 50-60 stam per power attack is plenty to prevent power attack spam imo.
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Do as you wish, of course, but having a recovery moment makes the move more risky and something that must be considered rather than an automatic press if you have the stamina. Just because you have the stamina to pull it off do you also have the space and time available for the recovery IF the zombie doesn't go down or if you miss or if there are multiple enemies close by? It makes the choice more interesting.

I get that people want to immediately mod out any and all aspects that seem like non-fun nerfing and more power to you but in case you were wondering why TFP would put something into the game like that...here you go. There are many people who like to make choices that have consequences and those consequences are ALL benefits. It's not that we enjoy suffering the consequences so much as it is knowing those consequences are there make the decisions that could potentially result in those consequences more interesting and (when we triumph) more satisfying.

Without the recovery pause: Always press the power attack any time you have the stamina available to do it

With the recovery pause: Not every situation will be best for the power attack and using it without thinking about it could land you in trouble

 
Do as you wish, of course, but having a recovery moment makes the move more risky and something that must be considered rather than an automatic press if you have the stamina. Just because you have the stamina to pull it off do you also have the space and time available for the recovery IF the zombie doesn't go down or if you miss or if there are multiple enemies close by? It makes the choice more interesting.
I get that people want to immediately mod out any and all aspects that seem like non-fun nerfing and more power to you but in case you were wondering why TFP would put something into the game like that...here you go. There are many people who like to make choices that have consequences and those consequences are ALL benefits. It's not that we enjoy suffering the consequences so much as it is knowing those consequences are there make the decisions that could potentially result in those consequences more interesting and (when we triumph) more satisfying.

Without the recovery pause: Always press the power attack any time you have the stamina available to do it

With the recovery pause: Not every situation will be best for the power attack and using it without thinking about it could land you in trouble
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I really don't mind the stamina. I accept it as a valid game mechanic and it can be managed. However, I wish there was a better way to visually represent your current stamina. The meter is ok, but it would be nice to see a change with how you hold your weapon or how you hold up your fists so that it's right there in your face how you are feeling. If you are not exhausted yet, but about to get there, it would be good to see that you can't hold your club up so high... or your fists so high. That way, you could focus on looking straight at your opponent instead of the corner of your screen every few seconds.

 
A risk/reward choice requires a reward worth the risk. I could spend almost 60 stamina plus no regen for 2-3 seconds, or I could just primary attack twice for less stamina, less risk of being unable to quickly run/reposition, and the same amount of damage (more actually considering how the perc_adds from strength etc. and power attacks add up). The perks may make them worth it on stunned enemies, but they are not at all worth it in terms of damage per stamina until you get 3+ points in those perks.

You tend to come up with ways to put a positive spin on pretty much any change they make. Perhaps you just happen to have the same mindset as the devs quite often and we have different taste in what mechanics are fun. I only started playing about a month ago and A16 was a very special yet flawed game to me that I fell in love with pretty quickly. A17 is still great, some of the changes are for the better (eg melee in general being one), but many of the changes stripped away some of the very aspects I felt made A16 special. I just seem to find myself questioning many decisions since then. Of course I'm just one person and I don't expect the game to be made according to MY tastes. So I'll just make my own changes instead of bitching for hours on the forums lol.

 
But a16 was the biggest "hello kitty" "fluffy bunny" version that I can remember. Thats the problem. People got used to ez mindless gameplay and the game was still fun in a lot of other aspects.

I miss hub cities crawling with cops and specials all over, and the good loot there. Trying to determine if I can risk equipping my auger because a giant horde of nastys (that would situationally sometimes never end) would show up because I switched it on. Having to be well prepared for crazy situations if screw up.

a16 was like uh.. "its night time, Im lvl1, its all good they cant see me at all, and if they manage to its not like they can path to me. Ill escape while they are twisting around in a circle swatting at imaginary ducks" lol

Sorry, I am one of those that enjoys thinking and making choices with consequence while gaming. The choice of waiting a few seconds longer for stamina to starting filling up again is a minor one in a lot of cases, but I am glad its there.

It's presence gives me options I did not have before to do good damage in a pinch if the situation calls for it or to screw up and miss and be left at a disadvantage. Nice work on the melee devs. It also allows me to make combat choices in the heat of a battle that I did not have the options to before. So melee isnt the exact same thing every time I see some zombies.

 
So before it was roughly 2x stamina for 3x damage. Now it is 3x stamina for 2x damage.
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Now it is 3x stamina for up to 4x damage and extra benefits depending on the weapon.

Other than that minor correction...

 
A17 is *harder*, but I disagree about it being less mindless. Many aspects were streamlined and simplified. Looting is less interesting now, good gear is significantly easier to find early on.

You say this addition is more "options" for "good damage", but except for the situation that you have 3+ points in the power attack perks and an enemy is stunned, there is no other time a power attack is smarter or more efficient than two primary attacks. Some of the special effects at higher levels (3+) make them a bit more worth it.

Now it is 3x stamina for up to 4x damage and extra benefits depending on the weapon.
Other than that minor correction...
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*4x at lvl 100 with fully maxed perks on stunned enemies only

 
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Do as you wish, of course, but having a recovery moment makes the move more risky and something that must be considered rather than an automatic press if you have the stamina. Just because you have the stamina to pull it off do you also have the space and time available for the recovery IF the zombie doesn't go down or if you miss or if there are multiple enemies close by? It makes the choice more interesting.
I get that people want to immediately mod out any and all aspects that seem like non-fun nerfing and more power to you but in case you were wondering why TFP would put something into the game like that...here you go. There are many people who like to make choices that have consequences and those consequences are ALL benefits. It's not that we enjoy suffering the consequences so much as it is knowing those consequences are there make the decisions that could potentially result in those consequences more interesting and (when we triumph) more satisfying.

Without the recovery pause: Always press the power attack any time you have the stamina available to do it

With the recovery pause: Not every situation will be best for the power attack and using it without thinking about it could land you in trouble
Click to expand...
I agree with the changes to both the primary attack and power attack and their reasons for doing it, it simply makes sense in terms of gameplay to me.

 
A17 is *harder*, but I disagree about it being less mindless. Many aspects were streamlined and simplified. Looting is less interesting now, good gear is significantly easier to find.
You say this addition is more "options" for "good damage", but except for the situation that you have 3+ points in the power attack perks and an enemy is stunned, there is no other time a power attack is smarter or more efficient than two primary attacks.

*at lvl 100 with fully maxed perks on stunned enemies only
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I never made any comparisons about any other systems besides the melee combat system that was just introduced. Nor did I mention a17 being harder. Just stated some of the hard choices and challenges I miss from earlier builds.

Good gear being easier to find is highly debatable, in a15-16 (I think) I would often have full Military super early (which had no affect on my movement/stamina) and it was possible to level max skills and level without much danger. Now I get to choose, be tanky, or be able to escape. (until late game with fully modded armor)

Looting less interesting? Now you have choice of looting ez older style prefabs or dangerous level designed POIs, with good loot boxes, jump scares, and crazy enemies. Not sure how that is less interesting, but you didnt give any examples so its hard to tell.

Havent even attempted to do the math, but assuming your correct and its not worth it till lvl3 perk. (lvl30) Even if it is more efficient to do 2 normal attacks..

You are fighting a bunch of normal Z's, and a feral, the feral is charging at you full speed and its a challenge already to hit him. You manage to knock him down. Would you a) try to squeeze in 2 normal attacks or b) hit him with the power attack while he is down and then get a normal before he starts charging at you again hoping to finish him off. But either way 10 level after you can craft a sledge(with perks), it becomes worth it regardless if we go by your calculations.

Its just an example of the choice it gives you. Spike DPS on a target that is a threat (especially one that faster than the others you are fighting) is valuable in situations if you think beyond just the numbers on paper.

 
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Thats not even considering the additional perks you can get for melee where just 1 perk point would add an additional factor.

 
By good gear I mainly meant guns. It was way harder to come by all the parts needed to make a weapon in A16, in A17 I had multiple AK47s, SMGs, Hunting Rifles, a couple rocket launchers, pretty much multiples of every gun and 100-200 of each ammo type within the first few days.

In your scenario...if you power attack and throw another primary, there goes pretty much all your stamina especially if you're any less than 80-90% on hunger which will probably only just start regening once the primary animation is about done. That's quite a commitment and you're kind of screwed with no stamina if the feral doesn't die. I looked and clubs aren't 3x, much more reasonable. Fire axes that is about all your stamina, sledge is 75 stamina to power attack. Factor in the 30 or so you AREN'T regening during that freeze period, thats about 100 stamina for one sledge power attack...

 
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*4x at lvl 100 with fully maxed perks on stunned enemies only
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Of course, since you were quoting the previous x3 modifier that required level 100.

I doubt anyone can keep a straight face and say that being able to exclusively spam "power attacks" was good gameplay. ;)

It's experimental. Mistakes were made and corrected.

thats about 100 stamina for one sledge power attack...
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Yes, a power attack with a sledgehammer can do over 600 damage.

 
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By good gear I mainly meant guns. It was way harder to come by all the parts needed to make a weapon in A16, in A17 I had multiple AK47s, SMGs, Hunting Rifles, a couple rocket launchers, pretty much multiples of every gun and 100-200 of each ammo type within the first few days.
In your scenario...if you power attack and throw another primary, there goes pretty much all your stamina especially if you're any less than 80-90% on hunger which will probably only just start regening once the primary animation is about done. That's quite a commitment and you're kind of screwed with no stamina if the feral doesn't die. I looked and clubs aren't 3x, much more reasonable. Fire axes that is about all your stamina, sledge is 75 stamina to power attack. Factor in the 30 or so you AREN'T regening during that freeze period, thats about 100 stamina for one sledge power attack...
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Well, you must not have abused the trader, or farmed military camps, because it was easy af.

In your second paragraph you are looking at it too simply also. Factor in a couple levels of Sex Rex, My sledge only takes 60*/120 ish to do a power attack.

 
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I never made any comparisons about any other systems besides the melee combat system that was just introduced. Nor did I mention a17 being harder. Just stated some of the hard choices and challenges I miss from earlier builds.
Good gear being easier to find is highly debatable, in a15-16 (I think) I would often have full Military super early (which had no affect on my movement/stamina) and it was possible to level max skills and level without much danger. Now I get to choose, be tanky, or be able to escape. (until late game with fully modded armor)

~Snippety~
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Well but now you actually DO NEED that extra quantity on Quality loot, to Make up for the faster gamestagerise early on.

 
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