Player Choice Is the Heart of a Sandbox Game

[zztong]

Not my experience, especially as a newcomer. First post, I just conveyed my experience as a first time player -- impressions, bottlenecks and all -- and the result of my first experience with A21 was the same as when the game first went on Steam: I put it aside. Of course, I was inundated with "cookies" as well as "solutions" for problems I didn't have on these forums and, so, decided that posting any observations or suggestions for improvement would be pointless. And it has been...up to now.

I regret that can be an experience here, or on any forum. My opinion this forum is the "best", not perfect, and of course that's just from my perspective. To me, Reddit can be really cruel (not just the 7d2d Reddit) and Steam seems like an echo chamber. Here, I've been able to find a voice, plus here I get more accurate information when it comes to game details that affect modding.

I wouldn't say posting observations and suggestions is pointless, but it is a forum so it will lead to discussion, and not necessarily a discussion with the Devs. The important part to me is how that discussion is carried out. I prefer respectful and generous. That can happen here, specially among the folks who have been here a while and have gotten to know each other. Language choices matter for the perception of a message.

 

[Riamus]

I would also add that people disagreeing isn't the same as the outright attacks you tend to see on Reddit or Steam. The problem here is that as soon as someone started with someone's post, it starts an argument even if it was nothing more than a disagreement. If someone said they think the game would be better if X was added and someone said they wouldn't want that, suddenly it is viewed as an attack even though it was just someone stating an alternate view/opinion. That isn't a reason to get all upset and start calling people names and stuff. We have been seeing a lot of that lately, making this forum not much better than Reddit.

As far as moderators having a voice, they are just regular users who moderate problems. They are not employees. They are players, just like you or me. They deserve to be allowed to give their opinions just like anyone else. Saying otherwise is the gatekeeping that people are complaining about. Gatekeeping is NOT stating an opposing opinion.

I would also point out that cookies have different meanings to different people and in different situations. Yes, sometimes they are used like an eye roll. But sometimes they are used because someone likes the idea. Sometimes they are used because they think the post was interesting or unique. I tend to use them when someone keeps repeating the same things over and over. They aren't always a negative, though they can be. They really aren't a great emote because of that ambiguity. But in any case, they are just emotes. They aren't important. And there isn't anything wrong with people using them to denote what they think any more than posting a reply supporting or opposing a post.

 

[Charger265]

Lets make a deal: I don't forbid you to post your opinion, and you don't forbid me to post my opinion.

I have no problem with you posting your opinion. However you are a community moderator and you will be held to a higher standard. Below i have provided the definition of what a community moderator is and how they should interact with the community.

Can you please advise if you have met those standards?

This is not only directed at you as i have the same toxic interaction with another mod and watched a small group band together like the little posse out for a hunt. If you haven't noticed people are scared to speak up.


A community moderator is an individual who helps manage and guide an online community, ensuring it remains a safe, respectful, and engaging space for all members. They are responsible for upholding community guidelines, facilitating positive interactions, and resolving conflicts. Essentially, they act as a bridge between the community members and the community's rules and values.



Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Enforcing Guidelines:
  Moderators ensure that all content shared within the community aligns with established rules and standards.
• Facilitating Positive Interactions:
  They encourage respectful conversations, welcome new members, and foster a positive environment.
  
  
  
• Conflict Resolution:
  Moderators address disputes, de-escalate tense situations, and intervene when necessary to prevent or resolve conflicts.
  
  
  
• Content Management:
  They review posts and comments, remove inappropriate content (like spam or offensive material), and ensure the quality and relevance of shared content.
  
  
  
• First Point of Contact:
  Moderators are often the first point of contact for community members, providing support and guidance.
  
  
  
• Community Guardians:
  They play a crucial role in maintaining the overall health and integrity of the community

 

[BFT2020]

I have no problem with you posting your opinion. However you are a community moderator and you will be held to a higher standard. Below i have provided the definition of what a community moderator is and how they should interact with the community.

Can you please advise if you have met those standards?

Yes he has. meganoth meets all those criteria and exceeds them when interacting with other forum posters. meganoth has always been respectful when interacting with other users in these forums.

 

[Charger265]

Yes he has. meganoth meets all those criteria and exceeds them when interacting with other forum posters. meganoth has always been respectful when interacting with other users in these forums.

Oh Really .... Evidence shows otherwise...
The very first interaction i had with that moderator. Was directed at me and it continued for several interactions before i called them out on it.

Sure was welcoming and inviting to me.... May have been different for you.. all just depends weather you have like minded views or opposing views.
Further more its also been clear reading comments in TFP's forum im not the only member who has had the same experience. So not sure what rock you have been hiding under.

An apology would have been nice but if the culture around here seams to think there was no wrong doing and the mods are doing their job.. It kinda explains why its so quiet in the threads..

 

[meganoth]

Oh Really .... Evidence shows otherwise...
The very first interaction i had with that moderator. Was directed at me and it continued for several interactions before i called them out on it.

Sure was welcoming and inviting to me.... May have been different for you.. all just depends weather you have like minded views or opposing views.
Further more its also been clear reading comments in TFP's forum im not the only member who has had the same experience. So not sure what rock you have been hiding under.

An apology would have been nice but if the culture around here seams to think there was no wrong doing and the mods are doing their job.. It kinda explains why its so quiet in the threads..


View attachment 35976

Well, maybe take a step back and look at that sentence from a sort of detached point, as if it was directed at someone else. I critizised the use of "core community" with a slightly humorous ironic remark. Do you really feel this (as I would see it) rather harmless comment is a serious attack? Did I attack you directly with it? Does it reach a level so that you would report it? (You can, by the way, if I am involved I would not be part of judging that post)

Also, look, you used irony yourself, when answering: "For a Moderator your contribution is very constructive and would appear to beneficial to the 7DTD community. Keep up the good work.". And that was a nice retort, by the way. The only thing was, to be fair and people NOT looking at me like I am a spokesperson from TFP (which regularily happens) I decided to correct the view, that a moderator here in this forum as in many others is not a payed professional that speaks for TFP. That wasn't intented as an attack, if you felt that way(?) just something to declare.

Now, I can apologize, if that makes you feel better. But in all honesty irony and sarcasm in not overblown doses is a valid way to talk here in the forum, nobody wants to make a scientifc paper out of this forum. My apology would be, if i am being honest, sorry that I used irony on your post here, but I can't promise to not do it again.

Should I maybe look for comments people get on steam or reddit and put them beside this comment?

 

[BFT2020]

Oh Really .... Evidence shows otherwise...
The very first interaction i had with that moderator. Was directed at me and it continued for several interactions before i called them out on it.

Sure was welcoming and inviting to me.... May have been different for you.. all just depends weather you have like minded views or opposing views.
Further more its also been clear reading comments in TFP's forum im not the only member who has had the same experience. So not sure what rock you have been hiding under.

An apology would have been nice but if the culture around here seams to think there was no wrong doing and the mods are doing their job.. It kinda explains why its so quiet in the threads..


View attachment 35976

When people make comments like "core community", they are essentially stating that their comments are important and anyone that doesn't agree with them are not "core community". You yourself established two different elements within the community based on your preferences.

meganoth already did an excellent job of explaining his reply about core community. Nothing about that was disrespectful.

I looked over that thread and he was respectful in his responses. You on the other hand, chose to write things like

• "These simple minded arguments are nothing more than fanboy mentality, thats unable to critically think"
• "Thank you for reaffirming my objective view of the fanboy echo chamber community here. Closed minded and data ignorant."

You demand an apology from a moderator that responded to your posts in a respectful manner, while you yourself insulted others that have a difference in your opinion. Oh how the irony is rich.

 

[Charger265]

Well, maybe take a step back and look at that sentence from a sort of detached point, as if it was directed at someone else. I critizised the use of "core community" with a slightly humorous ironic remark. Do you really feel this (as I would see it) rather harmless comment is a serious attack? Did I attack you directly with it? Does it reach a level so that you would report it? (You can, by the way, if I am involved I would not be part of judging that post)

Also, look, you used irony yourself, when answering: "For a Moderator your contribution is very constructive and would appear to beneficial to the 7DTD community. Keep up the good work.".

So i did point out later that is was very clear your view is not "majority" to the community as your stance on the issue was from a minority standpoint. As such you became somewhat offended which prompted you to post that comment.. That in its self is not how community member should act. Regardless of "you" are a paid member or not. I have run many forums over the years and yeah i have acted like a "Dxxk" and was called out on it.. If it wasnt for the call out i would not have learnt a thing.

Further more you are a community moderator taking the stance to ridicule a new member coming to express their educated stance on the subject.
I have no issue taking on the big guy with the tag of mod, its clear im not intimidate by it and will call you out on your poor behavior. There is no need to call cry baby and report you. I will just bring the behavior to the forefront and we can discuss it in open forum.

I think the worst part about it all is you dont really see you have done anything wrong.

Now as for the rebuttable... I did warn you. But you chose to ignore that.
Quote:
"Note: Be respectful and constructive in your replies. If you show respect so will i."
Cant say i didnt warn you....

I have no problem with clearing the air with you on this issue. If you are genuinely apologetic. Please understand that there are a lot of people who have a lot to contribute and feel they are unable to due to a small group who "appear" to attack any comment that does not align with theirs. Im not the only one to mention it.
Yes when you look at places like reddit its way worse.. But this is meant to the the home of TFP's which i have now come to find they dont care about as its more important to post on reddit. But that another thing...

 

[Charger265]

When people make comments like "core community", they are essentially stating that their comments are important and anyone that doesn't agree with them are not "core community". You yourself established two different elements within the community based on your preferences.

meganoth already did an excellent job of explaining his reply about core community. Nothing about that was disrespectful.

I looked over that thread and he was respectful in his responses. You on the other hand, chose to write things like

• "These simple minded arguments are nothing more than fanboy mentality, thats unable to critically think"
• "Thank you for reaffirming my objective view of the fanboy echo chamber community here. Closed minded and data ignorant."

You demand an apology from a moderator that responded to your posts in a respectful manner, while you yourself insulted others that have a difference in your opinion. Oh how the irony is rich.

I will explain this in simple terms so you can grasp the concept
"core community" - Long term players who regularly put hours on the game. This statement didnt exclude meganoth.
At no point did i ever say that non core players view was worth less.
If in doubt dont make asumptions ask for clarification.

Did meganoth intrutpurt it incorrectly? Maybe?
Was it the right thing as a mod to attmept to riddicul someone? regardless if the understood the term "core community" NO!

As for my comment.
You show respect i will show the same amount of respect back. Remember.... I didnt start it... I just stated valid points that may or many not hurt feeling by hearing someone objective view.

If you want to stand on that hill and die by the idea that meganoth was respectful in his reply. By all means... But let me ask you....
Does his comment meet the general concenus guidlines for community moderators??? Im hopoing logic can prevaile here...

• Facilitating Positive Interactions:
  They encourage respectful conversations, welcome new members, and foster a positive environment.
• Content Management:
  They review posts and comments, remove inappropriate content (like spam or offensive material), and ensure the quality and relevance of shared content.
• First Point of Contact:
  Moderators are often the first point of contact for community members, providing support and guidance.
• Community Guardians:
  They play a crucial role in maintaining the overall health and integrity of the community

 

[meganoth]

So i did point out later that is was very clear your view is not core to the community as your stance on the issue was from a minority standpoint. As such you became somewhat offended which prompted you to post that comment..

"You became offended which prompted you". You are here assuming you can look into my mind. Maybe don't. Text does not convey intentions and feelings like a real world meeting can. Depending on how someone reads the other he can easily attach feelings where none are.

That in its self is not how community member should act. Regardless of "you" are a paid member or not. I have run many forums over the years and yeah i have acted like a "Dxxk" and was called out on it.. If it wasnt for the call out i would not have learnt a thing.

Further more you are a community moderator taking the stance to ridicule a new member coming to express their educated stance on the subject.
I have no issue taking on the big guy with the tag of mod, its clear im not intimidate by it and will call you out on your poor behavior. There is no need to call cry baby and report you. I will just bring the behavior to the forefront and we can discuss it in open forum.

So we do. Obviously I am judging my own intents differently than you do. Note that your language is still very aggressive, for me it looks like you are measuring my responses differently than your own, when you don't see anything wrong with the two quotes from you that BFT posted. If you want to continue, please post similar quotes from me. Did I every attack you instead of your arguments or made unflattering guesses what your motives are?

I think the worst part about it all is you dont really see you have done anything wrong.

Neither do you, right? Even when calling someone fanboy is a very obvious direct attack. As a one-time moderator you should recognize that.

Now as for the rebuttable... I did warn you. But you chose to ignore that.
Quote:
"Note: Be respectful and constructive in your replies. If you show respect so will i."
Cant say i didnt warn you....

I have no problem with clearing the air with you on this issue. If you are genuinely apologetic. Please understand that there are a lot of people who have a lot to contribute and feel they are unable to due to a small group who "appear" to attack any comment that does not align with theirs. Im not the only one to mention it.
Yes when you look at places like reddit its way worse.. But this is meant to the the home of TFP's which i have now come to find they dont care about as its more important to post on reddit. But that another thing...

Please also understand that there are often different viewpoints to any argument. Lets say we agree to disagree.

 

[Charger265]

"You became offended which prompted you". You are here assuming you can look into my mind. Maybe don't. Text does not convey intentions and feelings like a real world meeting can. Depending on how someone reads the other he can easily attach feelings where none are.

If i was wrong then set the record straight.
Did you miss understand the meaning of "core community" as excluding you because you had a differing opinion?
If you didnt then please explain the reasoning behind your comment.

So we do. Obviously I am judging my own intents differently than you do. Note that your language is still very aggressive, for me it looks like you are measuring my responses differently than your own, when you don't see anything wrong with the two quotes from you that BFT posted. If you want to continue, please post similar quotes from me. Did I every attack you instead of your arguments or made unflattering guesses what your motives are?

Oh no... i know im being aggressive with you. As i said i warned everyone. Show respect and respect will be given. If they were factually untrue i would not have said it. Were they belittling. By all means. Were they designed to call out the actions of a few members / mod's. YES
It made a point. Was it beyond that discretion from your self. Yes.

In the better interest of the forum and you. I do apologise

There is also a meaning in words... I do apologise vs i can apologise
I took the first step the next one it up to you. We can agree to disagree without any issues. Just show respect and respect will be given.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

All of that drama aside, what is the exact counter argument being made here? That you dont want people to have a chocie because it hurts you somehow? You would feel inadequate or what is the problem? Why not let people have choice? I can understand the jars or no jars drama as its more or less "we have jars" or "we dont have jars", not a matter of choice or settings, but here we are only asking for a new in game option that would allow us sandboxers to have fun with the game and it doesnt affect any of you at all. So again, why would anyone argue against that? That might be why some people are more agitated than usual, because it doesnt make any sense at all to counter argument this.

 

[Adam the Waster]

• Bring back hoeing and fertilizing for improved yields.
• Rain or irrigation could supply water, using dew collectors + pipes, buckets, or sprinkler systems.
• Let us build underground farms using UV lights powered by electricity.

100% approved

Multi-Stage Water Purification Station, with crafted tool components that degrade based on how toxic the source is. More polluted = more stages used. Tools like:

1. Sediment Filters – Gravel, sand, mesh
2. Charcoal Layer – Removes chemicals
3. Distillation Chamber – Removes salts and microbes
4. Ion Resin/Ceramic – Removes radiation traces
5. UV Light (optional) – Kills final pathogens

I think using these kinds of resources for a chemistry station or at least a low/higher tier version would be nice. But basicly I see the chem station doing this

Removing Learn by Doing lost something special. Magazine progression is solid for unlocking things, but skill growth should still come from actual gameplay.

Why not a hybrid system?

Thats what ive been saying lmao

Bring depth to weapon crafting. A Gunsmithing Workbench and a separate Bullet Press Station would be amazing additions.

Tbh I could see the work bench do this but a separate station for guns and maybe upgraded versions would be cool af. Like able to make SBRs sawn off shotguns, refinded or cobbled weapons. Like imagine with ars you had more paths to go.

• short barreled rifles too increase damage up close and increase firerate
• Marksman lower speed but higher damage
• Well crafted increase durability

• 
  

 

[meganoth]

If i was wrong then set the record straight.
Did you miss understand the meaning of "core community" as excluding you because you had a differing opinion?
If you didnt then please explain the reasoning behind your comment.

The reasoning behind that comment was to make the point that nobody knows who or how large the core community is, how it should be defined or whether it even should have more say than anyone else who bought the game or plays it at the moment. If anyone who plays it at the moment ist the core community then it is largely unknown what it wants (statistically neither the steam reviews nor the streams of influencers where like-minded group together give any useful data).
And also the point that it is a rather dubious device of argument to elect himself as a speaker for such an undefined community or assuming what it exactly wants.

Now I critzised the use of that phrase by making a joke about it. Which is legit, not against any forum rules. Saying I "became offended" is like saying I become offended because my dinner plate is empty because I ate all of it so I had to stand up and take another helping.

Oh no... i know im being aggressive with you. As i said i warned everyone. Show respect and respect will be given. If they were factually untrue i would not have said it. Were they belittling. By all means. Were they designed to call out the actions of a few members / mod's. YES
It made a point. Was it beyond that discretion from your self. Yes.

In the better interest of the forum and you. I do apologise

There is also a meaning in words... I do apologise vs i can apologise
I took the first step the next one it up to you. We can agree to disagree without any issues. Just show respect and respect will be given.

I apologise for making you that uncomfortable.

 

[Charger265]

The reasoning behind that comment was to make the point that nobody knows who or how large the core community is, how it should be defined or whether it even should have more say than anyone else who bought the game or plays it at the moment. If anyone who plays it at the moment ist the core community then it is largely unknown what it wants (statistically neither the steam reviews nor the streams of influencers where like-minded group together give any useful data).
And also the point that it is a rather dubious device of argument to elect himself as a speaker for such an undefined community or assuming what it exactly wants.

Im sorry but it sounds like you are backtracking as by the definition you just describe, you dont consider yourself part of the core community because you cant define it? Really looking at it at face value as to what you wrote in words meant something else entirely different to the latest description. In fact i have posted what you wrote above. So which is it. Lying now or before?
I have to take the stance here that you didnt even read what i wrote. As i was very clear i was only one person who plays the game and its only my opinion. You just jumped to conclusions and tried to make a "smart" comment thinking you wouldnt be call out on your BS because you dont want to acknowledge that the direction the game has taken has actually make a lot of people unhappy.

QUOTE:


Im pretty sure if you were to take a poll here listing what one would be considered as part of the core community. You would end up with things like a community moderator of forums / social accounts (Yes you), Modders who provide additional content, Content creators who explore the game mechanics, players who regularly play the game with more than a few hundred hours that have a very good understanding of the game and its mechanics. Im sure you would not be able to define a direct line on the exact description but its reasonable description that im pretty sure the majority would agree on the ones mentioned above.

Based on that description its not that hard to work out who are the ones who are most disgruntled about the current state of the game. Its the majority of the core community. Based on your view even after all this has happened you dont see any useful data coming from it? Im honestly trying to give you some credit to be somewhat respectful but its extremely hard when you attempt to back track and talk around in circles trying to create some form of an illusion that "oh who would know what the community really wants & thats not what i meant"