PC No Tier 6 Crafting

[guardianangelmp]

Wrong.
Tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon and you can craft it. There is nothing critical or necessary about Tier 6 for gameplay. It's nice to have and those few items you find that are Tier 6 are hopefully fantastic. But you can win the game and overcome anything for survival and even thriving by using Tier 5 equipment and it is entirely in your hands to craft those. The ONLY problem I see in what you described is the fact that you are getting lots of tier 6 stuff. It should be maybe a half dozen at most in a 100 day playthrough.

I can't craft my t5 steel tools, since I haven't been blessed by RNGsus with the schematic yet.....have all the parts needed. So a whole set of tier 1-5 tools are not available because they are locked behind RNG. There is no way for me to work towards them specifically.

So, while it may be that "tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon", in this aspect I can't craft it because it must, essentially, be looted via RNG.

 

[Roland]

Snip

I said the word “Wrong” and you didn’t like that.

You Then spent several paragraphs telling me what amounts to the word “wrong”—and not only wrong but dishonestly so since apparently I don’t read thoroughly, try to spin things to my ulterior agenda, and am dismissive with hand waving.

I stand by my response that it was relevant to the context of this thread, and I can only proclaim my own sincerity. It’s also perfectly fine to say that someone’s stance is wrong. At least I said it clearly and with no ad hominem attached. Of course, we all feel as though other people’s point of view is wrong—otherwise there would be nothing to debate and we would all just sing kumbaya, pass out participation trophies, and say everyone is special and super valuable.

 

[Jugginator]

I said the word “Wrong” and you didn’t like that.
You Then spent several paragraphs telling me what amounts to the word “wrong”—and not only wrong but dishonestly so since apparently I don’t read thoroughly, try to spin things to my ulterior agenda, and am dismissive with hand waving.

I stand by my response that it was relevant to the context of this thread, and I can only proclaim my own sincerity. It’s also perfectly fine to say that someone’s stance is wrong. At least I said it clearly and with no ad hominem attached. Of course, we all feel as though other people’s point of view is wrong—otherwise there would be nothing to debate and we would all just sing kumbaya, pass out participation trophies, and say everyone is special and super valuable.

*takes a gulp of drink*

Somebody order up a side of salt for those wounds. GG Roland

 

[Roland]

I can't craft my t5 steel tools, since I haven't been blessed by RNGsus with the schematic yet.....have all the parts needed. So a whole set of tier 1-5 tools are not available because they are locked behind RNG. There is no way for me to work towards them specifically.
So, while it may be that "tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon", in this aspect I can't craft it because it must, essentially, be looted via RNG.

That’s true.

You can craft all tiers of the primitive tools and all tiers of the iron tools. I’d say that a tier 5 iron pick fully modded is a pretty sweet thing to own. You're guaranteed to be able to get a whole set of Tier 5 iron tools without any dependence on whether the right part or book will show up randomly. Do blue level iron tools fully modded suck or something?

Steel tools should be rare and hard to get whether by looting or crafting. I don’t think anyone should expect to get a full set of them whether by crafting or looting.

People are used to being able to quickly and easily gear up with all the best and the game is changing so that is not possible any longer. Instead of speeding right to steel crafting and then making all your own steel tools by the second or third week you are going to be using iron tools predominantly with some steel tools when you’re lucky.

If using the iron tools made the game unplayable I’d agree that it would be horrible that steel tools were so effected by luck but in my opinion the game is very playable with blue iron tools fully modded out. And at least now people won’t be skipping iron almost completely like they did in the past just zipping straight to steel as quickly as possible.

 

[Niil945]

I said the word “Wrong” and you didn’t like that.
You Then spent several paragraphs telling me what amounts to the word “wrong”—and not only wrong but dishonestly so since apparently I don’t read thoroughly, try to spin things to my ulterior agenda, and am dismissive with hand waving.

I stand by my response that it was relevant to the context of this thread, and I can only proclaim my own sincerity. It’s also perfectly fine to say that someone’s stance is wrong. At least I said it clearly and with no ad hominem attached. Of course, we all feel as though other people’s point of view is wrong—otherwise there would be nothing to debate and we would all just sing kumbaya, pass out participation trophies, and say everyone is special and super valuable.

It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking the word wrong. You pointed at someone's opinion and said it was wrong. There is no point where an opinion is right or wrong. Conflating "I disagree with your opinion" with "you're wrong" is foolish, but you're welcome to double down and stand by it if you want.

I never said you were dishonest. You summarized his argument in a way that made it blatantly clear you didn't actually understand his argument for whatever reason and chose to portray it very different than what his position actually was. I called it spin, though to be concise I meant your assessment of his opinion colored by your own bias of the topic, not intentional dishonesty. Still, intentionally dumbing down someone's argument when you summarize their position so you can then dismiss it is inherently dishonest so if that's what it was then dishonest fits. Though a better characterization of that is a strawman. But again, I never said dishonest. I don't know your motivations and I'm trying really hard to not just assume you're going to white knight for the devs and dismiss people who don't like aspects of the game simply because you're a mod. That's why I assumed you simply didn't read his post with an open mind regarding the topic as we are 14+ pages in at this point and I'm sure many people have argued similarly so it's probably a bit of a tired discussion. It made more sense to me to that you probably just glossed his position over rather than it being an instance of you intentionally and maliciously writing him off.

If you are interested in more than just a semantic pissing contest I actually asked substantive questions on the topic that you glossed over but going around further isn't really productive.

*takes a gulp of drink*
Somebody order up a side of salt for those wounds. GG Roland

Heh. Wounds?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I think the best way would be if both sides of the coin got some love.Some of the best items you can only loot... AND some of the best items you can only craft.

Correction...

I think the best way would be if all sides got some love.

Some of the best items you can only loot... AND some of the best items you can only craft... AND some of the best items you can only buy.

Now combine all of this together where it becomes an ultimate trifecta quest to obtain a special item from each in order to do something extra special. What these items might be and what that special activity might be is left to imagination.

 

[Roland]

Okay Niil, let's do this the right way so I can help you see where I was coming from and where I think Laz was coming from. Plus, now at least you'll know I haven't at this point skimmed a thing. Now, please keep in mind that this thread is and has been all about not being able to craft Tier 6 quality items as of A18....

Here is the pApA's quote that you claim neither myself nor Laz understood. I am going to rephrase line by line.

i hate this change. It´s such a luck based game now. Congrats on taking away an achievment for the player and replacing it with lottery. Not fun.

pApA doesn't enjoy the A18 change of not being able to craft quality 6 gear. He felt it was an achievement to be able to do so and TFP has removed it and replaced it with pure chance and he doesn't find that enjoyable.

I got a lot of tier 6 stuff yeah. Triples, Doubles some things even 4 times.

pApA has lots of Tier 6 stuff but its random stuff-even duplicates of what he already has.

But a single pick-, fireaxe or shovel? A pistol? A Junk turret? A stunbaton? Not on day 65.

pApA has named some specific gear that he would have liked to be able to have had before day 65. Given the context of the thread and his own feelings he shared in his first sentence I feel safe in saying he wishes he could have crafted those Tier 6 items long before day 65.

You build up your character in a certain way and then you have to rely on rng. meh.

pApA states his view that you make choices about how to progress as a character and then have to rely on chance to be able to get gear that matches the way you chose to progress.

Now in response to that post I posted the following:

Wrong.

Oh....the horror.....

I think most readers who didn't flinch at the W-word and refrained from then skimming what I posted would know that I wasn't saying he is wrong about the fact that he doesn't like the changes and doesn't find the fact that Tier 6 is now loot only fun. Of course he can't be wrong about that and I would never try to say that someone is wrong about how they have fun. So what I was saying he was w---g about was his statements in the second part of his post and I elaborate on exactly what that was in my own opinion.

Tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon and you can craft it. There is nothing critical or necessary about Tier 6 for gameplay. It's nice to have and those few items you find that are Tier 6 are hopefully fantastic. But you can win the game and overcome anything for survival and even thriving by using Tier 5 equipment and it is entirely in your hands to craft those. The ONLY problem I see in what you described is the fact that you are getting lots of tier 6 stuff. It should be maybe a half dozen at most in a 100 day playthrough.

pApA was making the claim that a character cannot gear up without relying on luck. My counterpoint to that is that a character can gear up with a full set of gear that is top level stuff and that supports their build. That top level is now blue and there isn't anything wrong with it. It is equal to the task of playing the game and succeeding. If you can't see the connection between what I am saying and what pApA was saying then I'm sorry but I sincerely think that it is a better design to have the best legendary stuff be uncraftable and luck of the draw and that it should be rare-- much rarer than it is now. I think TFP is wro-- er...incorrect to make it a guaranteed quest reward.

So now Laz...

I sorta like how you cant get things right away, it makes you make different choices which leads to each playthrough being different. In my current game (Day 50) I have 7 junk turrets but no m60. I'm currently specced for INT to take advantage of all the turrets and having a blast with my horde base.
Hopefully I get an M60 in my next playthrough so I can try a different strategy/build.

Actually a pretty friendly post. If this is Laz on a bad day then somebody stomp on his toes every day before he starts posting.... Laz is also responding to the idea that as players we should be able to get the specific gear we want to get and not go all the way to Day 65 without having a Tier 6 shovel, or Tier 6 junk turret. He mentions that he never got an M60 in this game and hopes it shows up in his next game. It is a direct response to pApA's (and others earlier in the thread) lament that some things don't show up in the game due to a reliance upon chance.

Now you....

I'm confused. What does crafting stuff have anything to do with getting them right away. You can't craft tier 5 gear until you get 10 points into a stat and then raise the stat to 5. So at a minimum someone needs 21 skill points to get a particular skill to cap so they can craft 5's.

Let's keep it in the context of pApA's post where he said Day 65 and things he wanted hadn't shown up. Crafting stuff has to do with it because if you could craft Tier 6 gear you would probably be able to do it long before Day 65. Not immediately as in Day 2 but I think we both know Laz wasn't talking about that type of immediacy. I think we both know that Laz was saying that the positive side of not having things be craftable is that you have to try and make do without and play the hand you're dealt and who knows, maybe in your next game you'll find that thing you wanted and it will make that next playthrough different and exciting. I don't know. The connection seems pretty clear to me.

That doesn't give them the resources or the materials (i.e. weapon/tool/armor parts) that they then still need to farm up, which are also random. I also like how your final comment makes the point about loot being completely luck based even further. To make an M60 you need to find a book on top of all the previous things I listed (assuming it ranks along with automatic weapon skill under fort).

There is nothing random about iron tools and so to Laz's point, maybe in this current game maybe the best you will ever have is a Quality 5 iron pickaxe you crafted yourself modded to the max (woe is me) but possibly a Quality 6 Steel shovel. This game you get an amazing shovel but a only a very very good pickaxe. The next game you play maybe the pickaxe will be the amazing tool. And as I said, he wasn't necessarily trying to refute pApA's claim that T6 is reliant upon random chance so much as share what he liked about it. Besides, who could refute that T6 is reliant upon random chance? Of course it is. That is the new design.

In essence, your response might have well have been, 'I like turtles!' because it doesn't actually address anything you quoted at all. So cool, you like an aspect of the game that would barely change if people could craft tier 6 at 5 in the relevant skill. Cool, I guess?

Now here is where for the first time someone who later calls for everyone to let people have their opinions gets snarky for....what reason? Laz was polite in his response and wasn't even the evil man who used the w-word.

And I'm not even sure you are correct in your assessment. If people could craft tier 6 in the relevant skill that would barely change the game by Day 65? I think we've seen the big change it has made. In A17 and before most people had full sets of purple quality gear long before Day 65. In fact, I'm betting that after about day 30 everyone's game was pretty much just like every previous playthrough they had ever had because they were able to craft everything at the highest qualities. So, no, unless Laz purposely chose not to craft certain things in order to go without for the purpose of artificially making this playthrough be different than the next he wouldn't be able to be cool and like his turtles.

 

[Laz Man]

My hat's off to you Roland for trying to clarify the back and forth. Especially on a Friday. Thank you sir for the time and effort.

@Nii and @Roland ... if there is still a disagreement at this point, lets all agree to simply disagree and move on at this point. Personally, I am about to load up the game and continue my current save, do a quest or 2, update my horde base for Day 56 and have fun in the process. I recommend you two do both as well.

 

[Niil945]

pApA has named some specific gear that he would have liked to be able to have had before day 65. Given the context of the thread and his own feelings he shared in his first sentence I feel safe in saying he wishes he could have crafted those Tier 6 items long before day 65.

He's talking about how there are some items he's seen 4 times at the best quality and some that he's seen at none. At no point did he say "I'd like to have these by day 65". That's not a statement about what he wants to have itemwise, it's a statement that reinforces his original point about how it's now entirely luck based. This is you adding to what he said to make it into a different argument than the one he's made. That's exactly what I said, you were spinning his argument.

pApA was making the claim that a character cannot gear up without relying on luck. My counterpoint to that is that a character can gear up with a full set of gear that is top level stuff and that supports their build. That top level is now blue and there isn't anything wrong with it.

Yes and no. He was lamenting the change from the old system to the new system, wherein previously one could craft to that level and now one can't. And the top level of stuff is not 5. It's 6. And it's very easily farmable from non-crafting but even then there's no player agency to the loot system at all.

Let's keep it in the context of pApA's post where he said Day 65 and things he wanted hadn't shown up.

I'm sorry, but where did he say "I want to be able to craft these things by day 65?" That's sort of the crux of the situation, you assert he means something he didn't actually say. To put it simply he was talking about player agency with non-RNG progression. I'm not interested in you telling me what he means when I can read what he said and the statement your saying isn't the same thing.

Laz was polite in his response

You and I have a different opinion about that. Tone is hard to read in text, I was making my point by using a silly example that I thought would be taken as lightly as the content of the point was. It wasn't hostile or attacking. Clearly it was perceived that way. And his response was clearly extremely defensive/snarky in return. My comment about not much would change is in context of the current system, a whole lot changed beyond simply the removal of the ability to craft tier 6. If the only change to A18 that happened was the ability to craft to tier 6 not much would change by day 65. I'm at day 15 in a relatively fresh play through. I'm at tier 5 quests already. I random looted an auger out of the very first item I opened (a car). I random looted a steel fire axe on day 2. I random looted a steel shovel on day 8. I can't even craft steel yet because I'm missing a crucible. I do not have a steel melee weapon or a set of armor maxed yet but I can rush about 1 tier 5 clear quest a day and get ~50 guaranteed tier 6 items in that time frame if I push hard. If I take my time and do them overnight I can very easily knock out 25 of them. And that's not counting the loot room stuff or that this toon is not a heavy melee combat toon that can clear quickly.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland so you say they are basically just pretty? Well let´s remove Tier6 then. It´s pure luck and does, by your words, nothing for the gameplay. Why even have them then? For the gambling feeling? They should make a casino for people who want this. It´s nothing but frustrating to sit on all the wrong items. No matter if you really need them or not.

@Lazman you can´t get tier 6 right away. Assuming you need a 10 in the attribute this would take quite a while.

 

[Roland]

Well...we’ll have to agree to disagree then. I don’t know how anyone could read that post and not surmise that he was very much lamenting that he didn’t have the named articles by Day 65 and was wishing he could craft them earlier than that long into the game. It’s plain to me but to you it is not and so I must have some motive (spin doctoring) or I’m stupid (skimming without understanding) to not see it as you do.

Only pApA can truthfully comment on what he was meaning so we’ll leave it there.

In my view the problem as it stands is that high quality high tier loot is still much too easily obtained. I hope TFP is serious about moving towards parts and broken gear in most common places so that players do have a chance to craft things before they are found and when they finally do find something made of steel and with 4 mod slots it is a special moment.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I simply don´t like luckbased gameplay. I didn´t wish i had them on this exact day. It´s a frustrating mechanics. I don´t need it easily available, but i want to know that i can work towards something without beeing dependent on the mercy of RNGesus. What is the point of this mechanic? What was it that TFP is expecting the player to feel with this change? What are they trying to achieve with this?

 

[OzHawkeye]

I simply don´t like luckbased gameplay. I didn´t wish i had them on this exact day. It´s a frustrating mechanics. I don´t need it easily available, but i want to know that i can work towards something without beeing dependent on the mercy of RNGesus. What is the point of this mechanic? What was it that TFP is expecting the player to feel with this change? What are they trying to achieve with this?

I like it imho.

T5 is perfectly fine, even in late game stages, but finding that elusive T6 is a nice "oh nice!" moment. None of my playthroughs on A18 netted me T6 variants of every tool/weapon I used, but they all got me some, and it added to the individual flavour of each playthrough.

 

[Niil945]

You're reading into what he's saying because of your view about loot. He doesn't talk about how fast or slow he wants to acquire loot. Or wanting some guarantee that that specific loot will be available by a set day. That's context you're putting into what he says that's not present otherwise. But we could always ask him. I'm 100% he's talking about luck based loot versus crafting skill based progression systems broadly. Hell he explicitly called out casino loot in his last post.

In my view the problem as it stands is that high quality high tier loot is still much too easily obtained. I hope TFP is serious about moving towards parts and broken gear in most common places so that players do have a chance to craft things before they are found and when they finally do find something made of steel and with 4 mod slots it is a special moment.

You're speaking to the issue of how much loot whereas my opinion and the commentary that started this was speaking about how that loot is acquired. There are a variety of systems I'd be happy with as long as the power progression arc is meaningful. Right now it doesn't feel meaningful at all. And if we started talking details about how much loot I don't know if I'd see a problem with your particular vision of how loot should work. I just don't want to open a chest at the end of a tier 5 mission and get a random 6 steel spear. Then turn that mission in and get a 6 military chest. Over and over and over and over again. All the while I'm using a bat and heavy armor. I want some way to work towards the thing I want for the build I'm trying beyond simply 'get lucky after running a a tier 5 a day'. Or I don't want to go 30+ hours and never see a crucible and then find one 10 minutes in my next game. Or I want to craft armor when I actually need it as an upgrade, including the work of finding/making the parts as needed. I want to not have a box full of steel parts for things I'll never use and can't do anything meaningful with. I actually want a progression system. What we have right now is not one at all. Hell, I'd be fine if they just flat out removed all tier 6 gear in the game. I'd rather that than what we have now.

 

[meganoth]

I simply don´t like luckbased gameplay. I didn´t wish i had them on this exact day. It´s a frustrating mechanics. I don´t need it easily available, but i want to know that i can work towards something without beeing dependent on the mercy of RNGesus. What is the point of this mechanic? What was it that TFP is expecting the player to feel with this change? What are they trying to achieve with this?

Maybe you will get a better feel for it when tier6 items are no longer tier6 but "legendary" items. You probably still won't like it, but in typical RPGs you can't craft and seldom buy legendary items, they are the stuff you find deep down in dungeons. Those are the items you get for heroic deeds, not because you farmed items until you had enough to build them

Yes. the game theoretically could also be the other way round, crafting as the principal way to get your gear. A16 worked like that, in co-op I was fully equipped with crafted gear for most of the time, looted gear had some importance for the first 2-3 weeks. And I really didn't like that looting was nothing more than resource-gathering. It mostly wasn't important what I found (except in the case of books), it was just resources. If you liked A16 that is fine, but you liked something that was shafting players who liked the scavenging/RNG based gameplay.

A solution to the dilemma would be that some stuff is the domain of crafting and some stuff of scavenging.

TFP seemed to be going this way with A18.0: Player equipment is predominantly the domain of scavenging/RNG, mass produced items for building are the domain of crafting. In my currrent single player game I generally don't find traps, electrical items or doors/hatches. I can only buy small quantities of that stuff if at all (though basic building materials can be found/bought), they mostly have to be crafted, especially in the quantities one normally needs for a horde base defense.

And (after protests from crafters) A18.2 has now a shared domain of weapons and mods until q5 while q6 (which probably will be replaced with legendary items next year) is still scavenge-only and higher-grade building stuff is still crafting only (not directly exclusive but exclusive in the quantities you need).

 

[Katitof]

I simply don´t like luckbased gameplay. I didn´t wish i had them on this exact day. It´s a frustrating mechanics. I don´t need it easily available, but i want to know that i can work towards something without beeing dependent on the mercy of RNGesus. What is the point of this mechanic? What was it that TFP is expecting the player to feel with this change? What are they trying to achieve with this?

Its not MMO raiding loot game, where you go into dungeon and expect to find certain something.

Its survival game, where you take what you're given.

If you have problem with that, play creative and spawn whatever you need or don't play survival games?

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Read again @Katitof I don´t need it easily available. I want to work for it. Don´t care how long. I just don´t wanna have to rely on RNG. It honestly the most stupid form of gameplay in a survival game.

If it has no purpose take it out. What is this game: A loot shooter or a survival game?

Let´s assume this is a loot shooter. It should have a purpose other then going "oh nice" when you find it.

 

[Zagan]

Never fear, I did exactly what I said I would do. I made a mod that enables you to craft Tier 6 items once you have the associated perk at level 5.

It's now available here.

https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/627

So now you have the option to craft them as it should be, or not. I believe in giving players options.

Feel free to endorse my mod if you like it, I don't get paid for these mods so a thank you is always nice

A big Thanks to Malacay2k11 for helping me track down the proper code.

 

[Jugginator]

In my view the problem as it stands is that high quality high tier loot is still much too easily obtained. I hope TFP is serious about moving towards parts and broken gear in most common places so that players do have a chance to craft things before they are found and when they finally do find something made of steel and with 4 mod slots it is a special moment.

This is what I want to see. Everyone can specialize in their armor type and be able to craft em, so it won't be forcing people down a path once they find a lot of parts. In all reality, this is the bigger issue. Almost no point in crafting armor due to finding it all anyway

 

[OzHawkeye]

This is what I want to see. Everyone can specialize in their armor type and be able to craft em, so it won't be forcing people down a path once they find a lot of parts. In all reality, this is the bigger issue. Almost no point in crafting armor due to finding it all anyway

That I can definitely agree with, most of my T5 items were found not crafted, and having found a T5 for a particular item, parts for it became vendor fodder, since T6 is uncraftable. T5 should be what people work towards crafting, T6 should be the super rare, "oh wow!" find.