PC New challenge: no loot, all materials must be obtained from logging/mining/salvaging

[Maharin]

The forge / pipe circular dependency only occurs when you eliminate large portions of the vanilla game, which isn't really something that the developers need to address since it is outside the parameters of the game scope they are working on, and an issue that can easily be addressed by modding the game for that person.

Well,  yeah, but the fix is so easy and does nothing to ruin the progression of the game.  Creating a pipe with scrap is no less difficult that beating the life out of a toilet or sink.  Forcing the use of a forged item to make a pipe is a needless dependency unless I am missing something?

 

[BFT2020]

Well,  yeah, but the fix is so easy and does nothing to ruin the progression of the game.  Creating a pipe with scrap is no less difficult that beating the life out of a toilet or sink.  Forcing the use of a forged item to make a pipe is a needless dependency unless I am missing something?

Yes you are missing something.  Nobody is forcing you to use an item from the forge (iron pipes) to make a forge, that is your decision to make rules / conditions outside of the vanilla game:

Places to get iron pipes to make a forge:

• POI loot containers
  
• POI Sinks and toilets
  
• Trader stock
  
• Trash containers
  

If you remove POIs completely from the game (which TFP have made a critical part of this game), you removed the top 3 methods of getting iron pipes to make anything that requires them in the early game.  TFP clearly made it easy to gather iron pipes early game to get setup, you can get them by just destroying sinks and toilets with a stone axe.

The dependency you are focused on is because you, as the player, eliminated the POIs from the game.  So it is up to you, the player, to make changes to the game to suit your playstyle outside of the bounds defined in the vanilla game.

I removed the ability to repair equipment in my game, and made it so mods added to equipment can't be removed.  With the base game as it is, you can't keep up at all to make new gear and mods.  Is it TFP responsibility then to adjust those items so that my modifications can work seamlessly in the game?  No, it is my responsibility to figure out what needs to be done; just like it would be your responsibility to make changes to certain elements of the game if you are eliminating POIs and traders.

 

[meganoth]

 Creating a pipe with scrap is no less difficult that beating the life out of a toilet or sink. 

It is only if you know that pipes come from toilets and sinks (which new players do not) AND have found a toilet or sink (which means entering a potentially zombie-infested house). Getting scrap is easier.

 

[FranticDan]

The real problem are mechanical parts. I know of no source that gives you mechanical parts when using the stone axe. You need a wrench but to build it you need mechanical parts.

Easy, smack postage boxes in the city with your stone axe

 

[RipClaw]

Easy, smack postage boxes in the city with your stone axe

Thanks for the tip. I had never tried it before. I checked the blocks.xml for similar sources that give mechanical parts in a destroy event. Garage doors and safes also give mechanical parts but have a lot of hitpoints. But church bells have only 250 HP and give a mechanical part on destruction.

 

[Maharin]

Yes you are missing something.  Nobody is forcing you to use an item from the forge (iron pipes) to make a forge, that is your decision to make rules / conditions outside of the vanilla game:

Obviously.  I'd already modded the game to get where I was at to figure things out.  Please keep in mind that the topic of a crafting-only game came up before I ever stepped into this thread and I was relaying my experience with attempting such a feat.  So the premise is already there for making everything through crafting and all I'm doing is pointing out what would have to change at the bare minimum.

Having said that, while we were on the topic, I also asked a simple question of why even have pipes only be created at a forge (that requires a pipe to make)?  I'm not demanding TFP change it nor am I calling them idiots for not changing it.  But I seriously do not understand why the circular dependency needs to be there in the vanilla game.

Someday I plan make a crafting-only mod that will fix all the loot-only dependencies to make a version of the game that will allow building everything that can be built from scratch.  I don't see turrets making their way into that version of the game, for instance, nor any of the complicated manufactured things like solar panels.  But I'm not going to seriously mess with it until after release...

I'm viewing this crafting-only version as a case of 7DTD in the wilderness (think northern Canada as an example).  Remote areas that aren't overly penetrated by humanity.

 

[Maharin]

It is only if you know that pipes come from toilets and sinks (which new players do not) AND have found a toilet or sink (which means entering a potentially zombie-infested house). Getting scrap is easier.

But that's kind of a moot point if you think about it.  Nobody stays new for long and once they do find a source for something they will stick with that until they get more game knowledge and develop a better way (for them) of getting the resources they need.  And there are quite a few POIs with toilets/sinks outside them.  By the time a new player attempts to build their first forge they've most likely found many pipes and a whole lot of scrap.  In A20 I'd argue that by the time someone stumbles onto how to get the knowledge to make a forge, gets up the nerve to spend a valuable point to make one, and then collects the resources to do so they are no longer a "new player".  That's just my opinion, obviously.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Can't you make pipes from forged iron?  Not that you could get it easily without something to loot/wrench, but I think there is a non-forge way to get them.

Granted, that may have been added by a mod.  I don't know that I've ever made pipes, I end up with hundreds of them.

 

[Maharin]

Can't you make pipes from forged iron?  Not that you could get it easily without something to loot/wrench, but I think there is a non-forge way to get them.

Granted, that may have been added by a mod.  I don't know that I've ever made pipes, I end up with hundreds of them.

Yes... but that still requires a forge to make forged iron.  So, currently, there are no ways to make a pipe that do not require a forge, making looting one your only option.  Which isn't a problem in vanilla but it is in the context of a crafting focused play-through.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Yes... but that still requires a forge to make forged iron.  So, currently, there are no ways to make a pipe that do not require a forge, making looting one your only option.  Which isn't a problem in vanilla but it is in the context of a crafting focused play-through.

Sure.  If you somehow made a wrench (which also requires forged iron iirc) you could theoretically wrench something that gives forged iron (assuming you have any POIs to find something to wrench), but I don't know how you'd ever make a wrench.  But yeah, as it is, a crafting only playthrough seems like it wouldn't be possible. 

Personally, I don't really see how changing the recipe from forged iron to scrap iron would be a big deal (I mean, honestly, in a normal game does anyone craft pipes?) so I'd be in support of it.

 

[theFlu]

Personally, I don't really see how changing the recipe from forged iron to scrap iron would be a big deal

"Big" deal, not really. But it is the primitive-game gating item. Without having to loot for those, you could just dig an iron node and not have to loot. It's a design decision; one I don't necessarily agree with, but one that does work just fine in vanilla.

There's two "loot only" bits gating a forge, pipes and duct tape - you can craft tape, but at the bottom there you'd need jars from loot. In that sense jars are also "gating and gated by" the forge. At the moment there's tree stumps that let you avoid looting jars - but the principle is there; it's there to drive looting for things. And A21 will of course change things again..

 

[Maharin]

There used to be a recipe for making mechanical parts.  But yeah... there are a lot of little obstacles to go crafting only.  To get around most of them you'd have to create several recipes and re-balance everything to make sure the later game items couldn't be crafted first, that sort of thing.  It wouldn't be a horribly difficult mod to make all things considered.

 

[meganoth]

But that's kind of a moot point if you think about it.  Nobody stays new for long and once they do find a source for something they will stick with that until they get more game knowledge and develop a better way (for them) of getting the resources they need. 

Vanilla is geared heavily to new players whatever you want to call them. And I have heard even old players confess they don't know about some ways to acquire resources. RipClaw just confessed to not knowing about how to get mechanical parts with a stone axe and I didn't know that either. I know I can get pipes from sinks and generally by looting containers, but I would have to look it up to know which other blocks (if there are any) in the game I have to destroy to get a pipe without a wrench.

I think you can't disagree with the statement "There are **some** players for which making pipes out of scrap iron would be a difference".

By the way, I myself, not at all new player, occasionally had to search for pipes and other resources in any stage of the game because I was trying to build a subbase in another town and was looking through POIs just for a few items I needed. Maybe even at night because I came to that town just before nightfall and (unprepared as I was) I needed the pipes or whatever else to not stand around useless. Scrap iron is literally everywhere (besides scrap iron nodes almost everything made from metal gets you scrap iron). Pipes, glue, mechanical and electrical parts, cloth, leather, paper are all stuff you have to do some looking around for. It is not at all difficult for an experienced player, the knowledge is there for anyone with an open eye. It is the difference between fairly easy and trivial

And there are quite a few POIs with toilets/sinks outside them.  By the time a new player attempts to build their first forge they've most likely found many pipes and a whole lot of scrap.  In A20 I'd argue that by the time someone stumbles onto how to get the knowledge to make a forge, gets up the nerve to spend a valuable point to make one, and then collects the resources to do so they are no longer a "new player".  That's just my opinion, obviously.

A20 is (almost) history. But even if we consider A20 only there is no telling on what information new players stumble on. Most new players don't read a journal and I would assume lots of them get random bits of knowledge by pure chance. They might get the info where to get pipes a long time before the knowledge how to make a forge or a long time later.

 

[Maharin]

I realize A21 will change everything just as A20 did for A19.  Nothing is tied down for certain and I get that.

And, to be honest, this thread isn't an argument for or against what can or can't be done in vanilla.  It was started as a "no loot" challenge which naturally lends itself to discussions about crafting and getting things without looting them.  Invariably all threads like this lead to modding because vanilla was not, nor will it ever be, designed for these extreme challenges.

I will ask one final question though.  With a little bit of knowledge or luck it is very easy to loot your way around (no need to make) the pipe/duct tape dependency for making a forge.  It is arguably a lot "harder" to loot/find a pot for making duct tape.  I've always thought that cooking with a pot was supposed happen earlier in the game than building a forge (not every game for sure, but the majority).  Logically, finding something/anything to cook with over a fire would be trivial in most survival scenarios, even if it is a stick stabbed through a fish, and eating or drinking clean water would naturally be a much higher priority.  Obvious exceptions would be desert or equally barren areas devoid of advanced life (no POIs or remnants of human settlements, for instance).

So the question is in which order do you people create your crafting stations through most of your games?  For me, the aim is to solve early cooking (a pot), then a forge, and then a workbench.  From there I no longer have a focus and it depends on how things fall as the game progresses.

 

[FA_Q2]

It is worth noting that A21 will, I think, flatly remove this as a possibility without heavily modding the game.

With recipes being moved over to magazines and being totally removed from perks, I don't see how you would progress without looting.