PC My thoughts on the loot progression system still haven't changed...

[jeromeN7]

The current loot progression puts progression over common sense. I would prefer it if all items could be found at any point. But at the start, be mostly low quality and have lower stats, those stats being fire rate, damage, stamina usage, hit speed, etc. Along with bringing back quality levels 1-600 instead of 1-6. Or perhaps a blend of the current system and my suggested system would be even better. That being, still able to find higher tier but lower level items from the start, yet low tier items being more common. Reducing the quantity of loot crates, and increasing loot quality in loot crates could support being able to find all tiers of items.

Honestly, I still find it nonsensical to be finding blunderbusses and stone tools in sealed shipping crates and locked gun safes. It's also nonsensical that most quality leveled items just don't even exist in loot until 14 hours of game-play more or less. I can see some people just giving up on the game thinking it didn't have any guns or different items, after playing for 5 hours. If of course they didn't just buy guns and tools at the trader. Which brings me to my next point. Why even lock down higher tier items when we can just go to a trader and buy them. So many loot crates all filled with items worse then what we can just buy at the traders. I'd like it, if looting was as rewarding as trading, from the start.

A negative of the current system is that players may not even be able to collect the lower tier level 6 items after progressing far enough. Then we have those instances when for example, I have level 6 primitive items and I start finding the next tier, iron tools and weapons, but the iron items are useless because the primitive items have better stats.

Honestly I don't expect anything to change. After playing a lot of alpha 19 and previous alpha's, I still prefer it when I was finding all items with quality and stats increasing over time. I will always kind of resent the direction TFP took with the loot balance. And, I don't expect my opinion to change once pipe guns are added.

 

[BFT2020]

okay……so do something about it.

Mod it so you get the loot progression you want.  It’s not hard to do.

You might not like TFP vision, but they gave us the tools to change it the way we want to.

 

[meganoth]

Haven't you heard? Blunderbusses are gone, we have scrap weapons in A20.

The rest is normal loot progression though, in RPGs you don't find high level items in the first few days.

 

[shimdidly]

I agree. Alpha 18 was just more fun with the loot progression. It was cool when, though not likely, you could find any weapon at any time. It also felt more realistic. It just makes less sense that the contents of chests changes from primitive to advanced over time.

I'm hoping that Alpha 20 brings us a balance between the loot in 18 and 19. 

 

[theFlu]

That might not be horrible; nerf the quality 1 items of the higher tiers by a lot, and allow some of them to be looted from the thematic containers (stiffy / messiah crates etc).

Make them (Q1/T3) have durability for about 20 shots and a similar damage to a decent (Q3?) pipe version of the same weapon. You can find them, you can use them, but mostly they'll end up as parts. That's what most Q1 weapons become anyway.

 

[Maharin]

You might not like TFP vision, but they gave us the tools to change it the way we want to.

This and the alpha / Early Access status is why most complaints should take a chill pill.

It's just a theory, but I'd bet money TFP is at least paying attention to which mods are the most popular (and especially once workshop support is added in).  If 50%+ of people are modding something out or something else in you can bet they're paying attention.

 

[JCrook1028]

This again? smh

 

[Matt115]

okay……so do something about it.

Mod it so you get the loot progression you want.  It’s not hard to do.

You might not like TFP vision, but they gave us the tools to change it the way we want to.

Geez i hate this : "just do it". honestly if everything can be added by using mods TFP can just change status of 7dtd into gold. Bandits? are in mods. Water? can be change in mods . EVERYTHING CAN BE ADD in mods. Geez and honestly i think maybe only 10% of 7dtd community know how to make mods and maybe only 0,001%  of PC player can do mods, 

Haven't you heard? Blunderbusses are gone, we have scrap weapons in A20.

The rest is normal loot progression though, in RPGs you don't find high level items in the first few days.

Well in some RPG you can sometimes rly good items early and you can do crazy things in this games-  in dark souls , pokemons or even bordlelands-  Like in bordelands you can kill a WARRIOR using specific type of shotgun rly fast - so you can drop this shotgun on 20 lvl and it will this boss faster that 30 lvl boss in fallout new vegas first bolt action rifle can be op in specifc build. In dead island and dying light you can find guns rly fast. So i think things should be connected with POI - Military guns in military base, shotguns smg, pistol- police station or  gun shops , doublebarell shotgun and hunting rifle - hunting cabins ,shops some houses. junk guns - devasted survivors camps

 

[jeromeN7]

Another idea I had, was if "rusted" guns were added. They could only be good for parts, after a couple of magazines fired. But at least shotgun messiah crates would have guns in them. There are many ways to keep things making a little more sense, while also being "balanced".

 

[warmer]

Wait and see folks we are weeks away from A20.

 

[jeromeN7]

Haven't you heard? Blunderbusses are gone, we have scrap weapons in A20.

The rest is normal loot progression though, in RPGs you don't find high level items in the first few days.

Perhaps there could be an argument that shotgun messiah was shipping out antique blunderbusses, but no way that's the only thing they were distributing to gun stores. I don't see how it makes any more sense for them to be shipping out makeshift pipe weapons... At least in many RPG's the loot you find in crates and other locations actually makes plenty of sense while also being balanced.

I agree. Alpha 18 was just more fun with the loot progression. It was cool when, though not likely, you could find any weapon at any time. It also felt more realistic. It just makes less sense that the contents of chests changes from primitive to advanced over time.

I'm hoping that Alpha 20 brings us a balance between the loot in 18 and 19. 

I think the loot in Alpah 17 and 18 was a little bit too good, but in 19 it doesn't even make sense.

 

[meganoth]

Perhaps there could be an argument that shotgun messiah was shipping out antique blunderbusses, but no way that's the only thing they were distributing to gun stores. I don't see how it makes any more sense for them to be shipping out makeshift pipe weapons... At least in many RPG's the loot you find in crates and other locations actually makes plenty of sense while also being balanced.

The shipping crates, yes. Some TFP dev made them probably without much thought whether they would really make sense when random lot is put into them. There is no reality in which these crates where shipped out to almost all of the houses and stood there unopened. Whatever you try to rationalize, they don't make much sense.

So no, these boxes are not sealed containers fresh from shotgun messiah. If you need a rationalization, think of them as used boxes locked with duct tape.

I think the loot in Alpah 17 and 18 was a little bit too good, but in 19 it doesn't even make sense.

"little bit" is an understatement from my point of view.

Geez i hate this : "just do it". honestly if everything can be added by using mods TFP can just change status of 7dtd into gold. Bandits? are in mods. Water? can be change in mods . EVERYTHING CAN BE ADD in mods. Geez and honestly i think maybe only 10% of 7dtd community know how to make mods and maybe only 0,001%  of PC player can do mods, 

Well in some RPG you can sometimes rly good items early and you can do crazy things in this games-  in dark souls , pokemons or even bordlelands-  Like in bordelands you can kill a WARRIOR using specific type of shotgun rly fast - so you can drop this shotgun on 20 lvl and it will this boss faster that 30 lvl boss in fallout new vegas first bolt action rifle can be op in specifc build. In dead island and dying light you can find guns rly fast. So i think things should be connected with POI - Military guns in military base, shotguns smg, pistol- police station or  gun shops , doublebarell shotgun and hunting rifle - hunting cabins ,shops some houses. junk guns - devasted survivors camps

Your logic would be better if you had actually listed real RPGs.

 

[Roland]

Loot progression feels much better in A20. You are not going to be able to find an AK-47 or  SMG on day one but you might find a pipe machine gun and that feels really good-- much better than the blunderbuss.

I would agree with you that finding anything at any time would be fun IF there was permanent degradation in the game. But since whatever you find is going to be with you for the rest of the game it consequently takes the excitement and fun out of looting much too early. Once you have  purple steel tools and purple tier 3 weapons, you have now invalidated a lot of future containers and it would be a pity for that state to be achieved by the end of the first week--not to mention the fact that you become way too OP for the bloodmoons and never fall behind that progression curve ever making for boring horde nights.

In my most recent play, I only had a pipe rifle and a pipe shotgun for the first bloodmoon. That was a much more interesting experience than it would have been with regular machine gun for use.

 

[7daystodierocks]

Loot progression feels much better in A20. You are not going to be able to find an AK-47 or  SMG on day one but you might find a pipe machine gun and that feels really good-- much better than the blunderbuss.

I would agree with you that finding anything at any time would be fun IF there was permanent degradation in the game. But since whatever you find is going to be with you for the rest of the game it consequently takes the excitement and fun out of looting much too early. Once you have  purple steel tools and purple tier 3 weapons, you have now invalidated a lot of future containers and it would be a pity for that state to be achieved by the end of the first week--not to mention the fact that you become way too OP for the bloodmoons and never fall behind that progression curve ever making for boring horde nights.

In my most recent play, I only had a pipe rifle and a pipe shotgun for the first bloodmoon. That was a much more interesting experience than it would have been with regular machine gun for use.

Challenge accepted my good sir

 

[hotpoon]

Loot progression feels much better in A20. You are not going to be able to find an AK-47 or  SMG on day one but you might find a pipe machine gun and that feels really good-- much better than the blunderbuss.

I would agree with you that finding anything at any time would be fun IF there was permanent degradation in the game. But since whatever you find is going to be with you for the rest of the game it consequently takes the excitement and fun out of looting much too early. Once you have  purple steel tools and purple tier 3 weapons, you have now invalidated a lot of future containers and it would be a pity for that state to be achieved by the end of the first week--not to mention the fact that you become way too OP for the bloodmoons and never fall behind that progression curve ever making for boring horde nights.

In my most recent play, I only had a pipe rifle and a pipe shotgun for the first bloodmoon. That was a much more interesting experience than it would have been with regular machine gun for use.

As I understand it, the pimps are working towards having better loot in more dangerous areas? That makes more sense to me than tying it to game stage.

In A20 are we still going to find stone and wood weapons and tools in locked gun safes?  That for me was absurd. Total waste of lockpicks.

 

[Survager]

I would agree with you that finding anything at any time would be fun IF there was permanent degradation in the game. But since whatever you find is going to be with you for the rest of the game it consequently takes the excitement and fun out of looting much too early.

I tried to solve this problem in my modification, I made it so that parts of these items were required to repair weapons and tools. And it works. The only thing that spoils the feeling a little is that the amount of detail that you get when scraping an item does not depend on its quality.

 

[Dodge]

Loot progression is very uninteresting, basically boils down to grinding levels = better loot.

The same crates in different POI's will give the same loot just because "your level is not high enough"

So there's no point in clearing a really dangerous POI filled with zombies when another much easier POI will have the same crates and same loot.

The new A20 will change that a little with multiplier but not really.

It would be really nice if the loot was tied to POI's and not level, you find a highly secured military base, filled with highest level zombies, special infecteds, maze like underground structure with access key cards to collect, you know the loot will be amazing because it's an advanced military base, you could try to clear it even at lvl 1 but it would be impossible, so the loot is organically gated by how hard the POI is and not determined artificially by your level.

Current system works and is ok just kinda boring.

 

[meganoth]

Loot progression is very uninteresting, basically boils down to grinding levels = better loot.

The same crates in different POI's will give the same loot just because "your level is not high enough"

So there's no point in clearing a really dangerous POI filled with zombies when another much easier POI will have the same crates and same loot.

The new A20 will change that a little with multiplier but not really.

It would be really nice if the loot was tied to POI's and not level, you find a highly secured military base, filled with highest level zombies, special infecteds, maze like underground structure with access key cards to collect, you know the loot will be amazing because it's an advanced military base, you could try to clear it even at lvl 1 but it would be impossible, so the loot is organically gated by how hard the POI is and not determined artificially by your level.

Current system works and is ok just kinda boring.

The difficulty of a POI in 7D2D can always be circumvented by going through some walls, adding some ladders, and exploiting zombie AI . Once you made the loot inside too compelling to miss, people will just use these techniques to get the good stuff and consequently feel underwhelmed the rest of the game and complain about the game being too easy.

Your idea works and is ok just kinda boring afterwards   It does not take into account that the game is played again and again while carefully designed dungeons that have breakable walls have weaknesses that can be exploited with knowledge. First time through it works, on repeated playthroughs it fails to work.

Sure, there are methods to combat that, use unbreakable walls for example. But that makes the game artificially violate its principles of having a fully changeable world and such a poi could be used by players as basis for indestructible horde bases.

The simple fact is that the game has an equipment scale where your fun is hurt if you get better stuff too early. You may want to have a tactical assault rifle on day 1 but it is not good for your enjoyment of the game if you actually have it. Another fact is that the game is based on a gamestage concept as opposed to fixed difficulty levels and having different POIs adhere to one or the other in the same game opens up a can of balancing worms.

Now the dependence of this game on gamestage is not the holy grail. It is a solution with many advantages AND disadvantages. But the same can be said about your idea and implementing it now, balancing it and making it work in the context of this game would amount to more years of development for a questionable gain.

 

[Dodge]

The difficulty of a POI in 7D2D can always be circumvented by going through some walls, adding some ladders, and exploiting zombie AI . Once you made the loot inside too compelling to miss, people will just use these techniques to get the good stuff and consequently feel underwhelmed the rest of the game and complain about the game being too easy.

Your idea works and is ok just kinda boring afterwards   It does not take into account that the game is played again and again while carefully designed dungeons that have breakable walls have weaknesses that can be exploited with knowledge. First time through it works, on repeated playthroughs it fails to work.

Sure, there are methods to combat that, use unbreakable walls for example. But that makes the game artificially violate its principles of having a fully changeable world and such a poi could be used by players as basis for indestructible horde bases.

The simple fact is that the game has an equipment scale where your fun is hurt if you get better stuff too early. You may want to have a tactical assault rifle on day 1 but it is not good for your enjoyment of the game if you actually have it. Another fact is that the game is based on a gamestage concept as opposed to fixed difficulty levels and having different POIs adhere to one or the other in the same game opens up a can of balancing worms.

Now the dependence of this game on gamestage is not the holy grail. It is a solution with many advantages AND disadvantages. But the same can be said about your idea and implementing it now, balancing it and making it work in the context of this game would amount to more years of development for a questionable gain.

If the only issue is being able to bypass the POI to go directly to the loot, there's plenty of ways to avoid that: loot in random locations inside the POI, loot that needs a key or some access code that you find in the POI itself which again the key or code could be in a random location so you HAVE to explore all the POI, cant think about anything else on the top of my head but theres plenty of other solutions.

I agree that having end gear right at the beginning kills the fun, that's why it shouldnt be possible but not because of artificial lvl loot gating but because the place where you find that loot is too dangerous and you wouldnt be able to get there.

So realistically you couldnt get end game gear at lvl 1 but the loot would be there and you could imagine an extremly skilled player still trying his luck and it would be a great experience and maybe with some gear and investing in the right attributes, someone insane at the game could clear that POI and get the loot, but that's only one POI that he would have cleared, let's say he gets an assault rifle, what's good is it going to be if he doesnt have bullets to go with it, and for bullets you need the recipe, the forge, the mining tools, the chemistry station etc.

So you would still have to visit and clear all these other POI's to really have interesting loot and being able to make higher level stuff.

The way i see it, it's challenge Vs grind.

With the current system you grind levels and then magically get good loot in some random box in an easy to clear POI, instead of taking on a challenging POI and if you are able to make it you get rewarded for it.

"balancing it and making it work in the context of this game would amount to more years of development for a questionable gain"

True, maybe there could be a mix of gamestage and POI based loot.

Some POI's would have a fixed minimum difficulty and would give a guaranteed loot, like the recipe for the auger in some huge mine filled with high level zombies, keys to find and loot in random location, dungeon type stuff. Demon zombies and lava?

 

[meganoth]

If the only issue is being able to bypass the POI to go directly to the loot, there's plenty of ways to avoid that: loot in random locations inside the POI, loot that needs a key or some access code that you find in the POI itself which again the key or code could be in a random location so you HAVE to explore all the POI, cant think about anything else on the top of my head but theres plenty of other solutions.

Yes, but all of them need further features to be developed which takes time and prevents other features from going into the game. Actually random loot locations and key cards were suggested a few times already independent of being useful for this case. All of them sound like moderately easy to implement but the devil is in the details. And that is only one issue I immediately thought of. The questions at this late stage is will this one special POI really make such a big difference that it warrants the effort? When a somewhat different method that is more in line with the rest of the game is actually being developed and soon in the game.

I agree that having end gear right at the beginning kills the fun, that's why it shouldnt be possible but not because of artificial lvl loot gating but because the place where you find that loot is too dangerous and you wouldnt be able to get there.

Which would be the case as well if that POI had a big bonus to gamestage.

So realistically you couldnt get end game gear at lvl 1 but the loot would be there and you could imagine an extremly skilled player still trying his luck and it would be a great experience and maybe with some gear and investing in the right attributes, someone insane at the game could clear that POI and get the loot, but that's only one POI that he would have cleared, let's say he gets an assault rifle, what's good is it going to be if he doesnt have bullets to go with it, and for bullets you need the recipe, the forge, the mining tools, the chemistry station etc.

Or the ammo loot in this poi plus what you can buy from the trader with the rest of the stuff you loot in there. Which you could invest in the next larger "special" POI to get your M60 and another heap of ammo. Great way for speed runners. Great way to be bored fast for experienced players. Great way for the rest of the game (especially the horde nights) to be just a nuisance to this player. Great way for the player to be bored whenever he sees a normal gun loot crate for a few in-game weeks until the normal crates "updated" to his gun level.

I don't say there are not advantages to this, but balance can go easily out the window when you give players opportunities to jump over part of the progression.

So you would still have to visit and clear all these other POI's to really have interesting loot and being able to make higher level stuff.

The way i see it, it's challenge Vs grind.

With the current system you grind levels and then magically get good loot in some random box in an easy to clear POI, instead of taking on a challenging POI and if you are able to make it you get rewarded for it.

The trader reward for higher tier quests is higher. At least in my MP game I don't see players farm lvl1 POIs extensively and avoid higher tier pois.

Now minmaxers are a different breed, they will always have problems in games like this and whether they hunt for XP (as of now) or exploit the challenge POIs (as they might do in A20?).

As I said I'm not against challenge POIs/biomes/areas and I'm happy that features comes to A20/A21. I just think the way TFP implemented it might be the better way for this game, better for their development time, better for their balance and better for their RWG. But naturally this is still an unknown until we actually can play with the finished feature.

"balancing it and making it work in the context of this game would amount to more years of development for a questionable gain"

True, maybe there could be a mix of gamestage and POI based loot.

Some POI's would have a fixed minimum difficulty and would give a guaranteed loot, like the recipe for the auger in some huge mine filled with high level zombies, keys to find and loot in random location, dungeon type stuff. Demon zombies and lava?

We all can dream about the 7D2D year 2040 edition . I suspect there will never be "guaranteed" loot. I'm fine with a chance at better loot for more risk. I liked the concept of the wasteland central city of old and I think something similar will surface again in 7D2D.