My solution to save this game

7 Days to Die is in turmoil right now. "Recent reviews" on Steam have turned to "mixed" from the backlash of negative reviews. This trend is likely to continue unless a proper solution is implemented that can meet everybody's wants & needs. The current solution of taking half steps to undo some unpopular mechanics will not work. Why? Because you're going to end up with a game that is 50% sandbox & 50% RPG, and nobody wants that. Players will continue to leave negative reviews because they won't think they're being listened to, and the developers will resent the customer base because they fail to see all the hard work that has gone into the game. The end result will be a slow, agonizing death of a game that many people love.


There is a solution, however, that can actually make everybody happy. Everybody gets what they want, and the game continues to grow and prosper. And I don't need a long list of things that need to change in the game to make it better. That's already been done. The solution is actually quite simple... Create 2 different game modes for the game: Sandbox Mode & RPG Mode.


Sandbox mode: This is the mode that players are asking for right now. In a nutshell, Alpha 16 mechanics, but with improvements from more recent alphas--such as better graphics, a better selection of POIs, etc. Unfortunately, the developers see the various play styles that people like as exploits--such as glass jars, non-digging zombies, and driving around in your vehicle on Horde Night. The mindset of the developers is going to have to change if this is going to work. You have paying customers who are telling you exactly what they want, and all you have to do is give it to them. This is what's known in the business world as a high-quality problem. In other words, it's not a problem at all.


It's up to YOU as developers to see this as an opportunity, not a threat. If your customers want non-digging zombies, then give them non-digging zombies. This isn't cancer, it's a video game. Nobody's going to die (irl) from a change like this. Sandbox mode is where the players get to do what they want and play how they want. So don't give players 20% of what they want or 50% of what they want. You need to give them 100% of what they're asking for, and “Sandbox Mode” is the way to do it. Besides, you still get to develop the game the way you want in RPG Mode. Just don’t forget to keep giving us toggles to turn features on and off.


RPG mode: This is the great part of RPG mode: The developers currently have absolutely no work to do here whatsoever. They just leave the game in its current state, and continue to develop the RPG elements of the game as they have previously planned. They build the game as they have envisioned without affecting the sandbox players in any way, shape, or form. In other words, no more backlash in the future when more RPG elements are added to the game.


END RESULT: Players who want back the sandbox game that they once loved get what they want, and the developers get to continue building the RPG game that they have as their vision. The negative backlash ends, and people get to enjoy the game however they want: Sandbox or RPG. In addition, a third mode of gameplay will be added (known as "story mode") at some point in the future--according to the developers. This will give players three different ways to enjoy the game.


BOTTOM LINE: The Fun Pimps are running a business. The product that they're selling is a video game. Their customers are providing very specific features and mechanics that they want in that product. If the developers fail to deliver, then they don't get paid. It's that simple. Sure, they get to keep the money that they've already made, but nobody is going to want to buy anything from them in the future--like DLCs or other games. The ball is in their court. Let's hope they make the right decision!


There’s still one other thing you need to become aware of. I hope you don't interpret this as an attack. It's nothing more than an observation. As owners of “7 days to die,” I believe you've fallen prey to a very common phenomenon: You've been working on this game for so long that you've grown an emotional attachment to it. It's your “baby,” so to speak. And you have expectations as to how your baby is supposed to grow and prosper. And when others (your customers) tell you that you're being a bad parent, and you need to do things differently… I'm sure it feels like you're under some sort of an attack. But, all we’re asking for is to let this game grow in a more open fashion, and not restrict how we want to play. In other words, let your players “co-parent” how this game develops. Think of it as twins growing up in the same household, but becoming two completely different people in the two different game modes. They can both co-exist—and flourish--without conflict. All you have to do is “let go” just a little… like a parent does when a grown child “leaves the nest.” Create the Sandbox Mode and let the players decide what happens there, and 99% of the conflict that you're experiencing right now will immediately go away.


Everybody wants this game to succeed, but this game is at a crossroads. Please make the right decision to keep it alive and well!


BB
 
What you describe as rpg, is actually fps with rpg elements. It's not, and will never be an rpg.

But semantics aside.
Making two modes: sandbox mode and story mode would be good, and would not need lot of work, just made all things old fans wanted: survival in voxel based sandbox game (with underground bases, full immersion, temperature, few kinds of meat, more engaging parking and cooking, action skills, better crafting progression). And for story mode just disable most of those functions and design specific quest paths for trades.
I would also love to remove traders from sandbox mode, and made quests via notes, currently traders breaks immersion.
 
Modes have been suggested before in far fewer words. No need to turn off immersive elements in story mode and probably better if you don't, but they can be toggled on and off as with Hardcore Mode in New Vegas. And, I agree, it's not a RPG by any stretch of the imagination and Rick should probably stop saying it is lest TFP be accused of false advertising.
 
What would the world be if gamer's didnt have something to complain about though. Time is the only thing that is really a problem for you here. This could be better summed up in having a progression system or not having a progression system and nothing will kill the game faster than not having a progression system. By what I've read so far there are two types of gamers that play this.

1- The people that want what essentially amount to a chore list that was A16
2- The people that want the game to be harder, more challenging, and more survival.

TFP won't be able to make both groups happy. The progression wanted by the second group ruins the first and vice versa and it is obvious any balance will just have a bunch of talking heads giving bad reviews.
 
Modes have been suggested before in far fewer words. No need to turn off immersive elements in story mode and probably better if you don't, but they can be toggled on and off as with Hardcore Mode in New Vegas. And, I agree, it's not a RPG by any stretch of the imagination and Rick should probably stop saying it is lest TFP be accused of false advertising.



Well, if it's not an RPG, you need to get in touch with the developers and let them know that they need to remove the tag from their Steam page. In their description of the game, it is clearly described as an RPG. And it definitely has RPG elements in the game. Furthermore, with each additional update, more and more RPG elements continue to be added to the game; so, if it's not an RPG now, it certainly will be in the future.


Personally, I don't like any of the RPG elements and haven't played the vanilla game in years--with one exception. If toggling features on and off was the solution, then the community wouldn't be in an uproar right now. Obviously, there are bigger problems that need to be dealt with. I'm simply offering a solution that meets the needs of everybody involved, not just some of the people.
 
What would the world be if gamer's didnt have something to complain about though. Time is the only thing that is really a problem for you here. This could be better summed up in having a progression system or not having a progression system and nothing will kill the game faster than not having a progression system. By what I've read so far there are two types of gamers that play this.

1- The people that want what essentially amount to a chore list that was A16
2- The people that want the game to be harder, more challenging, and more survival.

TFP won't be able to make both groups happy. The progression wanted by the second group ruins the first and vice versa and it is obvious any balance will just have a bunch of talking heads giving bad reviews.



You forgot the third group: The developers who want the game to be an RPG--which the majority of players have grown tired of (otherwise, the reviews on Steam wouldn't have fallen to "mixed" from all the negative reviews). So what's your solution to resolve this issue?
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They stated in the town hall that they would be doing something like that going forward if I recall correctly

No, they said they were going to be doing a story mode--which was already planned a very long time ago.
 
If toggling features on and off was the solution, then the community wouldn't be in an uproar right now.
I don't know if I buy that, and I'll explain why.

The two most significant changes between 1.0 and 2.0 are biome progression and storms. You can toggle both of those off, and if you do so, 2.0 plays very similarly to 1.0. People seemed to be aware of this (on reddit, YT, etc.), but that didn't deter them from grabbing their pitchforks.
No, they said they were going to be doing a story mode--which was already planned a very long time ago.
And they also said that they intend to have a story mode and a sandbox mode when story mode is released. I think they may have even used the word "committed" in regard to that. I haven't watched the stream since it was live though, so my memory may be off a bit regarding word choice.

Edit: Link to Town Hall stream -

Go to 36:40 to hear them talk about their plans to have "two versions of the game" sandbox and story mode.
 
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You forgot the third group: The developers who want the game to be an RPG--which the majority of players have grown tired of (otherwise, the reviews on Steam wouldn't have fallen to "mixed" from all the negative reviews). So what's your solution to resolve this issue?
Didn't realize the Devs counted as Gamers. We can just stop calling them devs in this regard to make this statement have merit. Having progression isn't a bad thing and it prevents you from doing nothing. I feel like the sandbox crowd would have a better complaint if the sandbox elements weren't still there. I could agree that what they need to add is a way to dictate which area is considered end game. That way all the forest campers can be at peace.

I have seen most of those mixed reviews about the jars still being missing & tantrums about the 30 mins it takes to get a badge & acting like biome progression makes no sense. The removal of difficulty for the sake of mine crafting I hope turns out to not be the winning opinion. You all should just turn of zombie spawns.
 
In their description of the game, it is clearly described as an RPG.
That's why I said that. Story mode and RPG are completely different animals. Any game can have "RPG elements" like, say, Bethesda's do and not be RPGs at all. "Immersive" elements (core gameplay systems) should be universal, but a hardcore survival mode can be added as its own mode. Story, Survival, Sandox are modes. I mean, it's nice it can be customized even more than that, but you've got start somewhere for a main menu and, honestly, they could take a cue from other "survival" games like Subnautica when it comes to that.
 
And it definitely has RPG elements in the game.
Having RPG elements doesn't make game an RPG.
Furthermore, with each additional update, more and more RPG elements continue to be added to the game;
You mean, more and more are continue to be removed?

Do You know what RPG means? Fallout 4 is not an RPG game, if this is your reference point.
Last RPG 3rd person game was Morrowind, it was closest to RPG if we exclude isometric view games. RPG is when player is not controlling a character, but is becoming the character. RPG is when it's not player skills matter but character skills, build, and cautious progression matter.
 
I don't know if I buy that, and I'll explain why.

The two most significant changes between 1.0 and 2.0 are biome progression and storms. You can toggle both of those off, and if you do so, 2.0 plays very similarly to 1.0. People seemed to be aware of this (on reddit, YT, etc.), but that didn't deter them from grabbing their pitchforks.

And they also said that they intend to have a story mode and a sandbox mode when story mode is released. I think they may have even used the word "committed" in regard to that. I haven't watched the stream since it was live though, so my memory may be off a bit regarding word choice.

Edit: Link to Town Hall stream -

Go to 36:40 to hear them talk about their plans to have "two versions of the game" sandbox and story mode.

Go to 37:45 where they say, "We're just giving examples of what we COULD put in. They're just ideas." In other words, they're not actual plans. And their version of Sandbox isn't necessarily the same as players' version of Sandbox.
 
Go to 37:45 where they say, "We're just giving examples of what we COULD put in. They're just ideas." In other words, they're not actual plans. And their version of Sandbox isn't necessarily the same as players' version of Sandbox.
But they did say in the stream that they were going to have a story mode and a sandbox mode, which you disputed earlier in this thread when you were told about it the first time.
 
Sandbox mode: This is the mode that players are asking for right now. In a nutshell, Alpha 16 mechanics, but with improvements from more recent alphas--such as better graphics, a better selection of POIs, etc. Unfortunately, the developers see the various play styles that people like as exploits--such as glass jars, non-digging zombies, and driving around in your vehicle on Horde Night. The mindset of the developers is going to have to change if this is going to work. You have paying customers who are telling you exactly what they want, and all you have to do is give it to them. This is what's known in the business world as a high-quality problem. In other words, it's not a problem at all.
I think some of you confuse the freedom of a sandbox, with game and level design decisions, the zombies digging is a way to not make the game easy, anyone could take a shovel, dig a few meters and forget about all the other mechanics, like building, mining, upgrading blocks, designing your defensive strategy, you may say then don't do it, but if I have to impose all kind of restrictions on myself, do you think that's a good game design?

About the jars, I don't think it was an exploit, I don't think tfp thought about it, because they have been in many versions, the decision to remove them is up to them, I liked them.

About driving and passing the horde in vehicle, I would agree if it was something challenging, difficult, or another way to pass the horde playing normal, but if there is no challenge and you have to be just driving around until it's over, it's boring and cheese in my opinion, and I would force myself to self impose rules to not use these cheese tactics, it's not a good design, they could do better yes, but right now it's what we have.

As you can see some of these changes you ask for, would affect me, because I would be one of those who would play a supposed sandbox mode and not "rpg" mode, some of these things, I don't think it would be as easy as turning it on or off in the menu, if it could then great!
 
People tend to build these ideas about what words mean without a real understanding of them.

Sandbox does not mean there are no rules or restrictions. It means that within those rules and restrictions, they have the freedom to do things in many different ways. Pick any sandbox game you consider to be the best example of a sandbox game. Can you build something 1 mile tall? Can you travel to another planet? On some, perhaps. On others, no. There are restrictions and rules in every game. That doesn't mean the game isn't a sandbox. You could even look at the word itself... sandbox. In a real sandbox, you are restricted to the sand that is available or that you can add to it. You are restricted to the size of the sandbox. It doesn't give you the ability to build a real spaceship.

Now, if you look at this game, can you do things in different ways? Yes. There are many ways you can play this game. There are many options to do things. You are free to explore the entire map, though you may have to prepare for the dangers of doing so. You aren't forced to play in any specific way, regardless what people claim. Many people play without traders, proving others wrong who say traders have to be used. There are a few items that are only available from traders, but you can play without those. You couldn't do quests are challenges without traders, but you don't have to do those. Yes, there are limitations or restrictions or rules, but you still have a lot of freedom to play this game in many different ways, even without mods. For those who want a completely sandbox experience, you can enable god mode and the creative menu and you'll be entirely sandbox... unlimited resources, no danger. For those who don't want to do that because they want it to be a challenge, well... to have a challenge, you need rules.

RPG is literally a role playing game. You role play (pretend to be) your character. That can happen in any game, really. But there is generally more to it that just that. Most won't think of their character as themselves unless there is something that makes their character relatable. This is often a story, though other things can provide that. That is the main thing for a game to be role playing... being able to feel like you are that character. However, there are role playing elements unrelated to that as well. Those elements can be in RPGs as well as in other games. A game that makes use of those elements can list RPG on the game's page and that is valid. This game uses RPG elements, though it isn't really an RPG. Having a story or progression doesn't make it an RPG, although those are elements of RPGs. Those two are also elements of other genres and aren't only elements of RPGs. This game is not and never will be an RPG. It can list RPG on the game's page because it includes RPG elements, but it won't be an RPG. This game is also not tower defense, though it has tower defense elements. It is not a survival game, though it has survival elements. This is a hybrid game with elements from multiple genres combined to make its own kind of genre. None of those genres that make up this game will be fully recognized in this game because this game only takes parts from each in order to make a new hybrid. That's what happens when you combine genres. You don't take an entire genre, but only pieces of it. You will never get what you want if you hope this game will be only one genre.

Now, if people complaining about progression stick to just talking about progression instead of labeling it as RPG, their arguments would be more valid. If people accepted that sandbox games don't mean you can do anything you want, they'd be able to make a better argument about what specifically they want from the game. Btw, having jars doesn't make it more of a sandbox. Being able to get water from a water source does. LBD doesn't make it more of a sandbox. Having options for different ways of doing things does. If they went back to LBD, you are removing the options for people who don't like LBD, so that is the opposite of improving sandbox experience. Having options that help both groups of people is what improves the sandbox part of this game. But remember also that this game is not ONLY a sandbox, just like it isn't only any other genre.

The devs plan to add options that will help to improve the sandbox experience - giving players the choice of whether or not something affects them in the game. Do you want progression, you can have it. Do you not want it, you don't need to have it. That option improves the sandbox experience. Removing either option reduces the sandbox experience because you are taking away player options. The more options you give players to customize the game to suit their preferences, the more sandbox you make the game.
 
I didn't agree with the entire post...but, I do agree with the spirit.
(sadly) I am sure there will be other people who will dissect your definitions.
I whole heartedly agree that this game has been a hybrid for a loooooooooong time. It hasn't been one or the other, it has elements of many.
Everyone is arguing about the balance.
TFP did spend a long time patching out "cheese". and that's how a lot of the community viewed it. They patched out fall damage for zombies...for example, because they didn't like some people like zombie droppers. that's a freedumb removed...but the "force field " blocks affected the game...they "fixed" those because they broke zombie pathing. When Bdubyah put it that way to me...it made sense.
Timely intervention prevents people from filling in the blanks with perceived bad intentions...because that's what uninformed people do. Keep em in the dark and the poop multiplies...along with the mushroom heads. lol
They need a community manager. someone who can explain things in plain language without BS.
 
I didn't agree with the entire post...but, I do agree with the spirit.
(sadly) I am sure there will be other people who will dissect your definitions.
I whole heartedly agree that this game has been a hybrid for a loooooooooong time. It hasn't been one or the other, it has elements of many.
Everyone is arguing about the balance.
TFP did spend a long time patching out "cheese". and that's how a lot of the community viewed it. They patched out fall damage for zombies...for example, because they didn't like some people like zombie droppers. that's a freedumb removed...but the "force field " blocks affected the game...they "fixed" those because they broke zombie pathing. When Bdubyah put it that way to me...it made sense.
Timely intervention prevents people from filling in the blanks with perceived bad intentions...because that's what uninformed people do. Keep em in the dark and the poop multiplies...along with the mushroom heads. lol
They need a community manager. someone who can explain things in plain language without BS.
Thanks for your post and your honesty. Much appreciated!

Yes, I agree with you 100%. They really do need somebody to speak with the community (a community manager, as you mentioned), to speak with their customers and be 100% honest about what they're planning and doing. If done properly, they could avoid SO MUCH conflict.
 
What you describe as rpg, is actually fps with rpg elements. It's not, and will never be an rpg.

But semantics aside.
Making two modes: sandbox mode and story mode would be good, and would not need lot of work, just made all things old fans wanted: survival in voxel based sandbox game (with underground bases, full immersion, temperature, few kinds of meat, more engaging parking and cooking, action skills, better crafting progression). And for story mode just disable most of those functions and design specific quest paths for trades.
I would also love to remove traders from sandbox mode, and made quests via notes, currently traders breaks immersion.

I like some of the ideas that you mentioned, especially regarding the traders. I don't use traders all that much myself, and I really don't like questing--at all.

Most of the time I just use traders in the late game to acquire solar panels. So if there was another way to acquire solar panels for my electric traps, I wouldn't mind turning traders off myself.
 
But they did say in the stream that they were going to have a story mode and a sandbox mode, which you disputed earlier in this thread when you were told about it the first time.

I went back and re-watched the Town Hall stream (once again) to make sure I heard things correctly. You're absolutely right. They did say that there was going to be a sandbox mode. They also said that there was going to be a story mode. Now I could be wrong, but I interpreted this as being two separate modes in the game: A sandbox mode and a story mode--which means that the developers are referring to the current state of the game as the sandbox mode.


This also means that there are going to be RPG elements in this version of the game IN ADDITION TO sandbox elements that players are currently requesting. Furthermore, players are also requesting that RPG elements be removed from the game and replaced with more realistic mechanics--such as removing the "Boy Scout Badges" and replacing them with, for example, gas masks for the burnt forest. In other words, the developer's sandbox version of the game is going to include elements of RPG & sandbox--which is what created the current conflict in the first place, which means it isn't going to work. Thus, the only LOGICAL solution in order to RESOLVE the above problem is to create two separate modes, thus separating the problems that created the conflict in the first place: Sandbox Mode & RPG Mode. And, of course, Story mode (later on). Thus, the solution that I'm proposing includes 3 different modes. The developer's solution only includes 2 different modes.


Unfortunately, simply naming these two modes "Sandbox Mode," and "RPG Mode" is also causing conflict, as you can see from the posts above. Such is the internet.


Frankly, I really don't care what they're called. The only thing that really matters is you separate the problems that created the conflict in the first place. So, for the sake of simplicity, why don't we call them Mode 1 and Mode 2?


Mode 1 will include all the changes that the developers are making from the town hall meeting, in addition to any future changes that players may request. This mode will have minimal RPG elements in it.


Mode 2 will be the true version of the game that the developers want to develop, which appears to be a preference for adding RPG elements; thus, the version of the game that will have the most RPG elements will be Mode 2. Since there are players who prefer RPG elements in the game, they will most likely be the ones to make suggestions to the developers for this particular mode.


So, now that we resolved that issue, let me take a poke at future disagreements: As I mentioned before, this is the internet, so I know that more arguments are coming. So, if you simply want to argue, I'm fine with that. I don't mind arguing. In fact, I actually enjoy it sometimes.


But... for the sake of brevity, how about this: How about presenting your own solution for the current state of affairs, or improving on the solution that I just provided to you? In other words, provide a productive outcome to resolve the issues at hand... because when it comes right down to it, arguing semantics is just a waste of time.


I await your response...
 
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