PC My A18 feedback

Remember when the zombies would do this in A16? lol :-P
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Others have said this and yet....nope! Never seen them do that and I played 1000 hours of A16. Unless you mean once their legs were broken and they were lying on top of spikes, then yes they would twirl on the spot a little but nothing game-breaking, they were already screwed.

 
2) If zombies couldn’t reach you they just stood still or spun in circles below you.
Not our experience, sorry. If they couldn't get to us but knew where we were, they attacked the nearest wall or other similar block as if trying to get to us. As they should.

A16 AI was absolutely superior to anything that came after as far as I am concerned.

 
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My post earlier was not to say A16 was better, but to clarify that A16 was not horrible either.

Mt statement was to say that A16 did not have obvious exploits that kill the game like A17/A18. ANd now I realize that I made a mistake: A16 exploit was that they could not attack down, and you could make a wooden bunker no zombie could reach. Digging down was a much needed addition.

My opinion is that the pathing in A18 should apply to all zombies during the week (it works great when a wandering horde comes along during a POI raid). But Blood Moon should go back to complete random, straight-line GPS, smash-through-anything-in-my-way mode. And they should always be able to attack in any direction.

 
Agreed 100%. I just cannot understand how anyone could think that the AI prior to A18 is better, especially in A16. I'm still waiting on a well thought out and articulated argument as to why it was better.
Better is often very subjective. The new AI is more sophisticated but it is not what players expect from zombies.

It was better in the sense that you believe that an instinct-driven being would act in this way.

I'm always impressed when I do a quest in a factory, a zombie falls from the roof and manages to get back to me through this maze, but I wouldn't expect zombies to do that. I also wouldn't expect that zombies knows the difference between wood and steel and then attack the wood block.

One point that is often mentioned is that zombies used to be more random. In fact, their behavior had little to do with randomness. It only gave the impression of randomness. The zombies spawned at a random position and then ran towards you in a straight line. This made the horde seem much more random than if the zombies all take exactly the same path, making them look like a group of konga dancers.

What is also a problem with the new AI is that in some cases the AI does react in strange ways. In the current video from JaWoodle you can see for example how a zombie suddenly runs away instead of running towards the player although there was no reason not to do so.

(5:50)
 
Better is often very subjective. The new AI is more sophisticated but it is not what players expect from zombies.It was better in the sense that you believe that an instinct-driven being would act in this way.

I'm always impressed when I do a quest in a factory, a zombie falls from the roof and manages to get back to me through this maze, but I wouldn't expect zombies to do that. I also wouldn't expect that zombies knows the difference between wood and steel and then attack the wood block.

One point that is often mentioned is that zombies used to be more random. In fact, their behavior had little to do with randomness. It only gave the impression of randomness. The zombies spawned at a random position and then ran towards you in a straight line. This made the horde seem much more random than if the zombies all take exactly the same path, making them look like a group of konga dancers.

What is also a problem with the new AI is that in some cases the AI does react in strange ways. In the current video from JaWoodle you can see for example how a zombie suddenly runs away instead of running towards the player although there was no reason not to do so.

Those are some good points.

 
Better is often very subjective. The new AI is more sophisticated but it is not what players expect from zombies.It was better in the sense that you believe that an instinct-driven being would act in this way.

I'm always impressed when I do a quest in a factory, a zombie falls from the roof and manages to get back to me through this maze, but I wouldn't expect zombies to do that. I also wouldn't expect that zombies knows the difference between wood and steel and then attack the wood block.
But you were fine with them knowing the difference between a wall and a door? Zombies were prioritized to attack doors in the old code to the point that you create honey pot traps with doors and oil barrels because they would turn away from the player to go attack a door...

One point that is often mentioned is that zombies used to be more random. In fact, their behavior had little to do with randomness. It only gave the impression of randomness. The zombies spawned at a random position and then ran towards you in a straight line. This made the horde seem much more random than if the zombies all take exactly the same path, making them look like a group of konga dancers.
I’ll grant that this was blatant in A17 but I get them from all directions in A18. Of course, you can build in a way to funnel them into a single corridor which in previous alphas they would have ignored so maybe that is what you are referring to. But as far as spawning randomly in all directions...I’m seeing that in the current build.

What is also a problem with the new AI is that in some cases the AI does react in strange ways. In the current video from JaWoodle you can see for example how a zombie suddenly runs away instead of running towards the player although there was no reason not to do so.

No doubt there are still improvements to be made but overall the general state of zombie pathing and destructive behavior when they can’t reach the player is superior in my view.

 
<snip>No doubt there are still improvements to be made but overall the general state of zombie pathing and destructive behavior when they can’t reach the player is superior in my view.
Agreed and still waiting on someone to explain how the AI is overall better prior to A18. I have a strong feeling I'll look like this by the time someone does.

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Not our experience, sorry. If they couldn't get to us but knew where we were, they attacked the nearest wall or other similar block as if trying to get to us. As they should.
A16 AI was absolutely superior to anything that came after as far as I am concerned.
The running in circles was just a bug, but it was definitely happening. Nothing serious, but since it seems to have been very old and convoluted code nobody wanted to touch with a 10 foot pole, fixing bugs in that part probably would not have been easy. Nor was extending it to include bandits.

. Another video, only here the player is unreachable on a platform, so not as jarring. But helped to make stilt bases practically 99% safe.
 
I’ll grant that this was blatant in A17 but I get them from all directions in A18. Of course, you can build in a way to funnel them into a single corridor which in previous alphas they would have ignored so maybe that is what you are referring to. But as far as spawning randomly in all directions...I’m seeing that in the current build.
You could still path them with doors and player position. IMO this was part of why basic wooden spikes were so OP in early alphas. You could lay out a few rows of them and easily play pied piper from a safe position above the zombies, or have doors set up for them to attack.

No doubt there are still improvements to be made but overall the general state of zombie pathing and destructive behavior when they can’t reach the player is superior in my view.
Agreed, I consider the destructive behavior and destructive capabilities to be probably the closest approximation we'll get of zombies not being all that bright and the pressure of 100s or 1000s of bodies pressed against a single wall.

I look at the pathing sort of the same - it's an estimation of behavior. I expect nearly anything with sensory ability to take the path of least resistance and in a herd of dumb zombies, I'd expect them to follow the butt of the undead sheep in front of them. Is there pathing too smart? Maybe, but I see it as a trade off of what technical limitations can support while still having a lone zombie be something of a threat.

Edit to add:

Can't remember whose let's play it was, but they were playing on insane in alpha 16. They made an X base out of wood and frames to take advantage of the zombies spinning in circle beneath the center position. So it could definitely be triggered on higher difficulties.

 
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All you needed to do was build a number 7

Four blocks up and three blocks over and they would come and stand right below you. Not a single one would bash the stilt.

In fact, if zombies were so destructive of nearby blocks in previous alphas then stilt bases would never have become such a popular base type. Pre-A17 you were 100% safe in a stilt base because zombies did not attack nearby blocks when they couldn't reach you. I can't believe that Ghostlight had such a unique experience with A16 from everyone else.

I built tree house bases and zombies never ever ever attacked trees.

 
I've read all the posts in this thread a couple of times. Still waiting for anyone to actually fully explain in detail how exactly AI is better prior to A18. Not a single person has done it yet.....

Roland has already perfectly explained in detail how it is better in A18. I know someone out there has gotta feel AI prior A18 is better and capable of explaining it. (I'm trying to understand why a person feels that way)

RipClaw Did the best job at explaining his points (besides Roland) but he did not actually explain why/how AI is overall better prior to a18...

 
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maybe cuz people liked the Dumb zombies instead of smart ones.

i love smart zombies
;) You are a smart kid. Shhhh though, saying what you saidout loud will only piss off those who.....

you know what I'm saying lol. *fist bump* :)

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Agreed 100%. I just cannot understand how anyone could think that the AI prior to A18 is better, especially in A16. I'm still waiting on a well thought out and articulated argument as to why it was better.
Sure, no problem...

1) In alphas prior to A17, zombie behavior was much more random- I know it wasn't but it appeared so. Since they did not automatically and unconditionally go for the weak blocks, the player could NOT build infinite ramps to exploit the AI. In A17 and A18 the player can use about 20 blocks to build a ramp and the AI will follow an infinite conga path around that ramp forever, and thus becomes absolutely zero threat. The blocks can be made of wood and will never be attacked so you can do this from day 1. Game is now over. Surely exploiting AI with an infinite ramp is not the intended way to play the game??? Now go look at every youtube video called "best horde base" or similar. Every one exploiting the A17 AI, without exception.

2) After A17 AI change, players can now sit out horde night on top of a converted POI and never ever worry about it. This is akin to the exploiting ramps described in point (1). Because the AI homes in on the weakest blocks, they tend to almost never attack the supporting blocks and will likely just be attacking all the insignificant blocks inside the POI (once the wall is breached). In A16 and prior there was a very high chance for the POI that the player was sitting in to be raised to the ground by the random nature of the horde attacks on supporting blocks - I've seen it happen dozens of times. This is more or less impossible in A17 and later. Again, surely this is not the way the game is intended to be played?

So let's assume the player is not going to exploit the AI with an infinite path or impregnable POI, yes? Here's still more reasons A16 and prior was better...

3) In A16 and previous, the AI would attempt to path to location where the player was. If it couldn't get there it would revert to attacking the closest block that was blocking it's path to the target player. This actually felt like what a "real" zombie would do and greatly increased immersion. It felt random! Build a 10-block wide wall between zombies and player, and zombies will attack all those blocks because the player is moving about shooting stuff. Watching an A17 "brain-dead" zombie carefully thread a path around your spike traps, following the clear path where spikes have already been cleared, and smartly heading straight for the single weakest block in your wall between it and the player is just stupid, and not how "real" zombies would behave.

4) In A16 and previous because of the random nature of how zombies behaved, there were many more base designs viable than there are now. The AI switch in A17 actually took a ton of super-fun base designs off the table. The changes to AI in A17 is what gives TFP their reputation of "no fun allowed". Any change to the game that reduces player choice is a bad one in my view. If a player wanted to build a base deep underground and never deal with zombies at all - SO WHAT? That's his business.

I just cannot understand how anyone could think that the AI in A17 and A18 is better. I'm still waiting on a well thought out and articulated argument as to why it is better. To summarise the A17 AI:

a) It is super easy to exploit. Even without infinite ramps you can predict which block they will go for and 100% influence which side of your base they will attack, and where, rendering defense trivial.

b) It removes a lot of fun base designs - like classic forts

c) Zombies should not be structural engineers or dodge their way through gaps between traps, it ruins immersion.

d) A17 zombies *cannot* raze POIs beyond simple tier 1s; A16 and earlier used to regularly do so.

 
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In fact, if zombies were so destructive of nearby blocks in previous alphas then stilt bases would never have become such a popular base type. Pre-A17 you were 100% safe in a stilt base because zombies did not attack nearby blocks when they couldn't reach you. I can't believe that Ghostlight had such a unique experience with A16 from everyone else.
I can explain that simply. I never built a stilt base. I guess a stilt base was the A16 equivalent of the A17 infinite ramp exploit. We never tried such a design, we just never thought of it. Shrug. We always build a fort-style base with us in the middle and defenses on 4 sides. The A16 AI against forts was very satisfying and "realistic". Forts are pointless in A17 because the AI can be easily herded into attacking a single side at a single point, again making it trivial to defend. They will do this even when the player did not intend to exploit them into doing it!!! Not quite as exploitative as an infinite ramp, but still....stupid.

 
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I disagree and I do not think all of what you said is accurate. Will reply later after I re-read what you posted and give more thought and gather the proof to refute the things I believe are incorrect

Example 1 is that in A16 if you knew how you could create a never ending congo line/ramp exploit as well. (I remember that from Capp00. he had at least 1 video showing how. and I also had to ban a couple of players in A16 who was doing it on our server) That video is actually what made me hate his youtube channel. and thats why I can remember plus the fact I rarely ever handed out bans in the 3 years I was an admin so each ban I can recall.

 
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