My 2.0 7DTD opinion and questions (no rants, please let's be constructive)

[Kalen]

I'm assuming you've gotten at least 1000 hours in this game from things you've said. No matter what they bring to the game, it's going to become predictable. Even when it was more random, it was still basically the same game over and over. Some things might happen in a different order before magazines and it might make for a slightly different experience, but after a dozen games you're going to have experienced most variations of any note

Have to disagree a little with this. For example, back in A12 I think, you needed to find a book to unlock the forge and I remember a playthrough where I didn't find that book until day 15ish. It completely changed the way I had to approach the game. Was it frustrating? It sure was, but overcoming that.... finding a way to deal with that was something that made that playthrough memorable even 8-9 years later. The bulk of my hours playing this game were between A14-A17 because it wasn't boring.... every time I started a new game it was a mostly a different experience. Now, however, when a new version comes out, I'll play through it once or twice and then I'll stop until the next version because its too deterministic... too predictable.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

Yeah replaying the game hasnt been fun for me ever since they introduced the tutorial quest. Then it went more and more downhill as you literally have to basically do endgame (get to a trader that fixes everything) right from the start BEFORE YOU CAN START PLAYING IN THE FIRST PLACE. After the millionth time in the game I think I can manage to craft a friggin bedroll, thank you very much, get the ■■■■ quest/challenge screen out of my face. And finding a trader is a huge milestone for me, not like "there he is, and there are 3 others just like him just so you know, and also all other biomes have all of those too".

Also what I really want to see in this game is completely free skill tree and technologies. Like you can dig to increase your digging skill, or you can buy more ranks with points, or you can read a book. Same for the forge, weapons etc. There should be nothing in game that you can only get one way.

Lastly, common sense should be preserved. You should be able to reuse jars after drinking (and also cooking!) and stuff like that, polcia cars should have police stuff inside them etc. Not hard to do, it was already in the game, so just bring it back.

 

[7DaystoPlay]

We are losing survival mechanics
It's a design decision, and it's not my to make, of course. But It's a strange one to course-correct so much of the survival elements of the game after it's been launched.

There have been some changes. The reason I have a neutral impression for now is because there is still time ahead.
In regard to the why, any answer that you get will only be a hypothesis, and here is mine.

The linear path is a mirror image of the open world everyone is use to. Until more is developed I think of it
as trying to finish up the obligations to Kick starter "at an accelerated rate", only the future will show the final result.
The obligations I speak of are incorporating the bandit ai, and a story.

Stories at least the simplest ones I have played and read are linear also , that is why I think of it this way. Recently
on the forum story thoughts were quite, verbose, including and down to timelines, political correctness of charcaterization,
location etc. Quite a few people on the forum participated, and it pretty much showed a positive support toward a story
development. Also a story in this environment, would feel like an RPG, because it would strip most of the freeplay style,
that has been the norm to a basic playthough. Coincidentally like what is being done now.

If they are trying to get to full release, and add the story. Then it is not much different than anything before. It just
feels from an outsiders point of view as condensed. The story will be the hardest part to achieve, because in open world
suspension of disbelief allows the flexibility of just adding stuff and player imagination does the rest. Example: I bet no
one has ever even cared or thought of how you automatically light the forge "Wheres the pilot light", or a torch "Where's
the match or the flintstones".

But a story in "this" game, that's gonna take some real-time authoring. It may, as a moderator posted, be overly simplified, but
it will still need elements to carry it. Am I on the right or wrong thought process once again dunno, but those are the things
I keep seeing. RPG not really, I've played RPG games this ain't it. If I were told to think of the present config as an RPG,
I'd have to equate it to Zork I. If I were told it was a story test I'd believe it

For a lot that was removed, do I believe that it could be added back now, yes, why because A lot of the things that did not work
in prior alphas, were because of lack of human resources, cumulative experience and the engine, and just using plug and
play modules from the engine. It was like using a vanilla engine core to make a vanilla game. You could easily tell when it
was cursory vs personal. Now human resources and experience have grown, It shows by comparing it to then and now, and comparing
it to the unity games released then and now.

But it's not one sided, on the opposite side: If you give someone a million dollars a year for 12 years, they naturally will
get use to the freedom, then you take away what you gave them and give them 60k. They can exist on it but the comfort and freedom
are now gone. Same reactions are happening here.

Like I posted above which way it's headed dunno, since this is only the first wave, I'll just reserve my thoughts, and start
modding my butt off again. There is a lot of opportunity.

I posted a picture representation once before regarding open vs story, so as it seemed to head in that way it hasn't been too much
of an inconvenience or shock to me.

I can understand linearirty in the context of story mode, but I dint feel it waa necessary to remove the randomness over it.
Several games, like Starcraft 2 have a campaign mode but it really shines in the base it provides in terms of freedom of playstyle and balance. Story mode won't hold attention on this or on any game for more than several hours.For example, i don't mind at all that all this biome badges, progression and fixed traders are part of the navezgane experience map. That is where the story should be foucs.
And I tell you it's a very detailed and rich map, nothink like random world. They have polished that map in a very wise manner.
But all they are taking away is breaking random worlds. Nobody will joy a server for the story (there is none now and lots of people join) but toplay with friends. The less railroading in a survival game the more likely people will want to play it again.
I have just one more something to say to this YourMirror user: have you no opinion? You know a forum is to exchange ideas, right? If you don't have anything positive (as I stated above), please don't engage. Nobody needs audience here. You want to like any post and is not willing to have your opinion scrutinyzed by others it's fine, but don't reply to posts you disagree with it with sarcastic emojis. You may not see it but It's rude. I'm trying to have a mature and productive conversation with people that are willing to do the same, which is often very difficult to do online. You are not required to participate if you don't want but specially if you don't have anything to add to what is being said. It is not an attack on you, but have been doing this since my first post on every ost you don't agree iwth. It's rude and unnecessary. You should back up you opinion with arguments, not silly emojis that add nothing to the debate.

 

[Riamus]

Yeah replaying the game hasnt been fun for me ever since they introduced the tutorial quest. Then it went more and more downhill as you literally have to basically do endgame (get to a trader that fixes everything) right from the start BEFORE YOU CAN START PLAYING IN THE FIRST PLACE. After the millionth time in the game I think I can manage to craft a friggin bedroll, thank you very much, get the ■■■■ quest/challenge screen out of my face. And finding a trader is a huge milestone for me, not like "there he is, and there are 3 others just like him just so you know, and also all other biomes have all of those too".

Also what I really want to see in this game is completely free skill tree and technologies. Like you can dig to increase your digging skill, or you can buy more ranks with points, or you can read a book. Same for the forge, weapons etc. There should be nothing in game that you can only get one way.

Lastly, common sense should be preserved. You should be able to reuse jars after drinking (and also cooking!) and stuff like that, polcia cars should have police stuff inside them etc. Not hard to do, it was already in the game, so just bring it back.

I would prefer the intro stuff to be optional, but it's better than it used to be. At least almost everything you need to do with it is stuff I'd be doing anyhow. I scrap clubs and bow and arrow immediately after making them, and I normally wouldn't be making or upgrading blocks right away, but the rest is pretty much going to happen even without the challenges. But yeah, I think you should be allowed to complete other challenges without doing the intro ones if you want and not have to do the intro buried treasure quest before doing other quests. But they are really minor things, imo. And traders are an intended part of the game loop and will keep becoming more used as they add in bandits and story, so if you're trying to avoid traders, you're going to have to use mods. No way around that part. Most people use traders, so it's just something that will stay.

LBD won't return, so you can wish for it, but you'll have to either accept it is gone or use mods. The same for empty jars. Both of which I'm happy to have gone.

 

[RyanX]

The vanilla gameplay model offered the most replayability for me. No quests, and the progression system was organic, i.e. finding clothing, finding better weapon parts. When you felt like you were dropped into an empty world and had to fend for yourself. That's where development went off the rails and moved away from survival. Devs made their choice after A16 and decided to make it an RPG. I used to get excited when our multiplayer server did a wipe and you got to explore a new map. The exploration is gone now, and things get changed in ways that make you HAVE to follow their system. Quite terrible.

 

[Kyoji]

Have to disagree a little with this. For example, back in A12 I think, you needed to find a book to unlock the forge and I remember a playthrough where I didn't find that book until day 15ish. It completely changed the way I had to approach the game. Was it frustrating? It sure was, but overcoming that.... finding a way to deal with that was something that made that playthrough memorable even 8-9 years later. The bulk of my hours playing this game were between A14-A17 because it wasn't boring.... every time I started a new game it was a mostly a different experience. Now, however, when a new version comes out, I'll play through it once or twice and then I'll stop until the next version because its too deterministic... too predictable.

I think some of that has to be ways to find your own enjoyment. For example in ARK you generally have a pre-determined path on how to progress based on general efficiency. Same thing for other sandbox titles like Conan, etc. Generally there is a best way to do things and that is hard to fix.

Some elements can make it less deterministic such as randomized blood moon days and storms.

I don't see them getting rid of traders and quests and I personally find them enjoyable. What could change is offering more reasons to go off script. Laz suggested that adding bandits to remnants would potentially offer some reasons to go exploring and so long as the rewards for clearing them would match that of a quest then I think that is a step in the right direction to breaking the linear nature of the game.

Lastly, common sense should be preserved. You should be able to reuse jars after drinking (and also cooking!) and stuff like that, polcia cars should have police stuff inside them etc. Not hard to do, it was already in the game, so just bring it back.

They have been making strides towards this with the specific loot bags associated with zombie types which is good. I think the XML files also generally have loot tables for specific things. For specifically police cars you have a 100% chance to get some ammo or possibly weapon parts and a reasonable chance of finding some food or trash in the car. You have a small chance to get some armor or weapons. So the chances are there it's just that sometimes you come up short of hopeful expectations but for me that is also part of the enjoyment. Will I get a nice haul or 13 rounds of ammo?

 

[Kalen]

I don't see them getting rid of traders and quests and I personally find them enjoyable. What could change is offering more reasons to go off script. Laz suggested that adding bandits to remnants would potentially offer some reasons to go exploring and so long as the rewards for clearing them would match that of a quest then I think that is a step in the right direction to breaking the linear nature of the game.

No doubt.... currently there isn't a whole lot of incentive to enter POIs without having a quest for it. I have long accepted that the direction the game is going is not the direction I would've chosen.... I still enjoy the game, just not as much as I used to.

 

[Suxar]

Lastly, common sense should be preserved. You should be able to reuse jars after drinking (and also cooking!) and stuff like that, polcia cars should have police stuff inside them etc. Not hard to do, it was already in the game, so just bring it back.

Maybe that's enough about banks? Whining for a whole year is not normal. There are a lot of mods that bring them back.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

I can understand linearirty in the context of story mode

I agree that if it were to be made permanent, as the new layout of the game it would kill replay-ability.
I play a story once then the second time, I start to throw in little monkey wrenches to see how it plays out,
then if the content of the game is good I go back to world view. My most recent example Dark souls complete
series. I completed all the story content, then just went around the world exploring. Then a year later I did NG+
and repeated it.

Don't get me wrong, I am not naive as to the possibilities, but I more have hope from the viewing the past until
now, and replaying every prior alpha to scratch some itches, and learn so I can make adjustments in the present
to re-allow things that have changed. If I were to just go off of a snapshot of 1, 3, or even 5 years ago. And I was
told this was it, I would definitely be disappointed.

But I often go back to conversations with Madmole and use them as a starting point, and look at the timeline, the
progression of development, his ideal vs realistic capability regarding genre overlap, and their obligations. When I
expand my own focus I get to see different possibilities. But in the end that is just my own way of looking at things.

For instance, open world play has had 12 years of dedicated development, this has only had 1 year from introduction,
and more acute focus for just over a month. My expectations, were quickly curtailed from a response post on the
dev diary. So I had to step back and try to see what was actually needing to be done, hypothesize the possible ways
to accomplish it just for 4sheetzngeegles, "that is not for me I didn't want to be put in the black boxes" then see how it
played out. I will post the picture so you can see what I was thinking about. And watching.

When you look at it you will see what I was expecting, when players started talking about story. But My thought is they
had to bite the bullet some time, time and deadline is getting shorter, and it has to be something that now spans pc
and console. After that they would be free to make it a minor inclusion, fulfill an obligation, and return to polishing
the rest. I just look at it for now, since it just began, and going by observed past pattern and goals, as a final exam cram
after partying all weekend. They were worse that the hangover. You had a headache, a hangover, and anxiety, but when
it was over, it was time to party again. To celebrate getting it done. Although if I were to offer 1 piece of advice, that should
enlist, a creative writer to help.

*****

 

[RyanX]

No doubt.... currently there isn't a whole lot of incentive to enter POIs without having a quest for it. I have long accepted that the direction the game is going is not the direction I would've chosen.... I still enjoy the game, just not as much as I used to.

And also, why do they always have to be dungeonesque? Long gone are the days where you weren't led through every POI even without a quest. It's so "gamey" now. Even though it is a game, part of what used to make it so good was the sandbox feel the game used to have.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

The vanilla gameplay model offered the most replayability for me. No quests, and the progression system was organic, i.e. finding clothing, finding better weapon parts. When you felt like you were dropped into an empty world and had to fend for yourself. That's where development went off the rails and moved away from survival. Devs made their choice after A16 and decided to make it an RPG. I used to get excited when our multiplayer server did a wipe and you got to explore a new map. The exploration is gone now, and things get changed in ways that make you HAVE to follow their system. Quite terrible.

And also, why do they always have to be dungeonesque? Long gone are the days where you weren't led through every POI even without a quest. It's so "gamey" now. Even though it is a game, part of what used to make it so good was the sandbox feel the game used to have.

Indeed. Why do you even call it a sandbox game when it almost feels like 100% scripted corridor shooter? I mean technically you CAN ignore all those exclamation marks and challenges, but who in the world has the patience to ignore them forever? Let alone want to suffer the penalty of not engaging with the BS? Right now you can just save a lot of game memory by making 90% of the world just a backround and only have the few important square kilometres in game. Every new alpha makes the old ones more valuable to me and I dont think this is how things should go.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

its too deterministic... too predictable

Exactly my issue with it picking it back up with A21 after I'd played it only a few hours when it first came on Stream and, so, with no real experience in it. It's just too repetitive and redundant for my taste, as designed, though I could see some of my friends loving it. Some might like the extraordinary degree of repetitiveness, but I can't say I understand the enjoyment of doing the same thing over and over again by rote. In something like L4D? Sure. But in an "open world," survival game? The megabase builders? Sure. They're going to have a different elaborate base design for every playthrough to look forward to while they generally go through the motions otherwise, but there are only so many different combinations of weapons and armor and so forth to experiment with when it comes to combat. I also understand those who essentially use it as a homesteading sim, picking a POI to convert or essentially camping out, going whereever and doing whatever. That's why I tend to think people are enjoying more what they bring and put into the game than the game itself.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I would prefer the intro stuff to be optional

It always is in other games. Don't want to jump into "the cave of knowledge"? Don't have to. Don't want to shoot sarsaparilla bottles off a fence? Don't have to. Don't want to dig up buried supplies? Why are you being asked to? Think people won't discover shovels on their own?

The thing I find odd about the opening tasks is that you're sent to the trader, but there are still opening tasks to do in the "tutorial" from crafting and placing down doors to crafting and placing down spikes to crafting and placing down land claim blocks to crafting and placing down and upgrading building blocks and it's essentially interrupted by the "go to trader" objective. Doing all that would take way too long when peeps just want to get on with the game already, so I can see why it was cut short, but it's actually caused my game to crash if I pick up the buried supplies job and then try to do the rest of those tutorial tasks without completing it first in my test runs. (Yes, it was reported, but is still happening.)

The tutorial could use some work, imo.

 

[theFlu]

it's essentially interrupted by the "go to trader" objective.

It's pretty logical; first it gears you up for the trip (axe to gather, craft weapons and armor). Then it sends you on the trip. The base building is just intended to come after that.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

It's pretty logical; first it gears you up for the trip (axe to gather, craft weapons and armor). Then it sends you on the trip. The base building is just intended to come after that.

The base building tutorial can be dispensed with altogether, afic, if not maybe introducing a new tutorial to skip when you put down your first building block. The only thing you need to know about as a new player it is the land claim block and the importance of the land claim block. I'd think anyone would be able to figure out the rest on their own while being afforded the joy of experimentation.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

And also, why do they always have to be dungeonesque? Long gone are the days where you weren't led through every POI even without a quest. It's so "gamey" now. Even though it is a game, part of what used to make it so good was the sandbox feel the game used to have.

Maybe I'm just obstinate when it comes to game rules, or if I feel like I am being guided. But I played it as though I've been tronned
in like Flynn. I was taught early on in life you don't go down a dark ally, that has a flashlight at the opening. I did the base quests
to get a bike. After that, I searched for the other traders. Then decided if I wanted to do quests. I used smoothies after I finished the
the quests but without getting any badges, until I was ready to just go to the wasteland, and play in my normal way. The burnt badge
is the only one I accepted following the rules, just to see what was different.

For the pois, I follow the ally rule and use ladders to go in another way, If the ladder doesn't fit flush i find a place where it can and
work my way from there. If there is a fence or wall, I skirt the top to figure my own entry point. I don't try to beeline to the loot room,
I do it to safely clear the poi, then I loot, so I don't get overweight. Even in this 2.0 and 2.1 I wanted to see just how stringent the rules
were. So I played using my open world rules, use the traders to trade and keep my inventory down, removed the biome multipliers, do
pois as I wanted to, finished all of the biome quests without smoothies, invested in only survival related choices, I have 13 points to spend
later, sold all books and parts that did not apply to just the survival aspect, or my bow and pipe weapons. I did this not just to prove I
could but to see just how much the core open world choices and feeling had changed. Because the initial visual, and the advertising
made me wonder is this still playable, that's why i don't pay attention to advertising or sales people. If one attaches to me I just make
them follow me around the store, and make them carry my stuff.

Results for me are weapon and armor level is lower than usual, I still unlocked all of the biomes, and didn't have to go to the snow
to get the wasteland badge, have not even found Hugh yet. The only notable thing that had affected me was getting caught in
the storm the first time so that is the only real change for me, I clear pois or sections as I progress and i don't wander into the wilderness
unless there was a recent storm. Other than that I was or am able to do all of the things I always do anyway, and my way. so far day 40
2 hr. But once again that's because I'm obstinate, and wanted to see my options.

 

[theFlu]

The only thing you need to know about as a new player it is the land claim block and the importance of the land claim block.

The importance of the land claim. If PvP, well, fine, but if you don't know land claim mechanics in a pvp environment like this coming in, you got bigger problems. For a few years If PvE, it's at best convenient, not important. Whatever you're trying to pick up, you can quite trivially recraft if need be. POI spawns? You already cleared the place once, shouldn't be too hard in a week

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

If PvE, it's at best convenient, not important.

My experience as a new player was to wonder why zombies were respawning in a POI I'd cleared and converted. A split second later I thought, "Duh. There must be some mechanic to prevent that." That's when I discovered the land claim block. Whether it's important or convenient is splitting hairs, imo.

I'd break up that tutorial into two separate tutorials 1) to eliminate that game-crashing bug and 2) so people can get into the game quickly without still having gold tutorial objectives lingering on their screen while anything they've picked up in the interim is grayed out unless they specifically activate it in the menu.

If I had my druthers, the base building tutorial would be eliminated altogether. Let people learn as they go and enjoy experimenting, I say.

 

[theFlu]

If I had my druthers, the base building tutorial would be eliminated altogether. Let people learn as they go and enjoy experimenting, I say.

I learned the game without tutorials, I don't disagree; no tutorials needed. But I did watch a friend of mine digging gravel with a stone axe for a while before I dropped my shovel into his pit. Entertaining for me, but not necessarily fun for him..

Location of trader + 4 skill points is too valuable to skip, but I wouldn't mind never having done a tutorial for .. any game.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I learned the game without tutorials, I don't disagree; no tutorials needed.

There is a steep learning curve. No doubt about it. That's not a problem to be solved, imo, much less one that's going to be "solved" by tutorializing everything. I think TFP just went overboard because there is such a steep learning curve. People will acclimate to it naturally...or they'll do what most peeps do these days: watch YouTube videos and streams and "play the meta." (Can't say I'll ever understand that phenomenon, either.)