PC Micro Transactions

Not saying everyone hates it, obviously Exxodous likes it quite a lot. But based on all the available metrics we have at the moment, more people dislike it than like it. About 2/3rds. And I'm trying to explain why. Not by just sharing my opinion, but the actual technical issues that my opinions are based on. Some of the systems they have changed no longer fit well with the other systems in place. Some of them have outright contradicting aspects. That this doesn't bother everyone doesn't change that it is a thing right now.
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Fixed it for ya ;)

I will agree with you, it seems a larger portion of people are unhappy with this Alpha than I had hoped. (Because I like it) Here is to hoping TFP will adjust it, balance it, etc until a larger percentage of people enjoy it. They'll never please us all, but I hope the numbers improve.

 
I do think it's funny that people are still assuming what should be fun for others...

Me, I only argue for what *I* want.

I don't tell others they're not having fun, just because they don't agree with me. Or tell them my way is better for /them/.

In fact, I would find it counter productive towards my OWN agenda...

I mean, who would listen to my crazy rants and raves if all I did was tell people they're wrong, call them names and insult their intelligence? Just because they enjoy something I do not?

Why would I expect anything I had to say to be taken seriously if I acted like that?

But then again, I'm trying to actually argue for change, not argue for ... well crap, I can't even conceive of a reason... arguments sake? Rep? Attention?

 
The perk system mathematically offers less build options for players, that is not up for debate. Maths is not opinion.That isn;t even accounting for how many of the possible builds in the game, currenrtly are not viable. Or how all builds are most effectively completed by the same kind of playstyle.

What part of this do you not understand. Not everything you disagree with is subjective. Some you just don't understand/want to admit.
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What build is not possible? I'm curious. Assuming you mean Char build?

 
They removed entire skill sets...any builds that used those skill sets are no longer possible...
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And replaced it with an infinite one. I could make a bladder control skill if I wanted... (Unfortunately, just not in real life).

 
They removed entire skill sets...any builds that used those skill sets are no longer possible...
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That wasn't an answer really, just a generalization. Doesn't even mention "which" skill sets they removed. I would be willing to try a playthrough of a build you say is no longer possible, just gotta tell me what that is....

 
There's an important distinction to make here between builds that are possible, as in you can potentially make them, and builds that are practical, which are the ones that work. While the pool of possible builds might not have changed the pool of practical builds has shrank significantly because of the way the perk system is set up. Most perks have an ideal level that you don't want to push past or you're just wasting points. As an example, Cardio becomes useless the second you can make a bicycle so taking any Cardio is impractical. There is no point in taking Rank 2+ of Master Chef since the recipes you get at Rank 1 are perfectly fine for most of the game. There is no point in ranking Intellect up early because its most useful skill, Hammer and Forge, is level-gated. Strength is pretty much the only stat for the early game, since it governs melee damage, resource collection, and backpack space, all of which are vital. All of these mean that the grouping of practical builds is significantly smaller and less varied than it was in A16.

On the original topic, just say no to microtransactions in pay-to-play games.

 
Why would any gamer WANT microtransactions? Especially in a game you already paid for?

Microtransactions are like the crack cocaine of the gaming industry. It makes the sellers lots of money, it sweeps through the market like a plague, and it eventually destroys everything it touches. Just say no..

 
Here's some fun numbers to play around with. Unfortunately, because of the way things changed in Steam this past year, and the way Steamspy now requires donations in order to view any relevant data, these numbers won't show up for 2019, or any date after June 2018, but...

Apr 2018 - Owners: 2,919,547 ± 52,034 | Players in the last 2 weeks: 199,675 ± 13,644 (6.84%)

Apr 2017 - Owners: 2,212,409 ± 42,621 | Players in the last 2 weeks: 224,588 ± 13,614 (10.15%)

Apr 2016 - Owners: 1,402,535 ± 30,186 | Players in the last 2 weeks: 159,977 ± 10,216 (11.41%)

Apr 2015 - Owners: 970,362 ± 31,295 | Players in the last 2 weeks: 195,450 ± 14,068 (20.14%)

So game purchases are still trending up (or rather a linear upward trend), but people playing are on a decline. Based on this and other information I've viewed, the number of new players that will exceed 1K hours will be extremely low, whereas the number of people who already exceed 1K hours has already peaked.

This is of course a mere sampling - you'll have to do your own research to see the full spectrum.

 
Yeah, but nevertheless, i don't think microtransactions are the way to go.

I would go another path, the path of "official servers". Set up some Servers, with special maps (not navezgane or random gen, but something nice, and at-least-partially-handmade (random gen, and then painted over. should work, as far as i have seen). and then only whiteliste people on those servers, that paid for it (on a per-month basis).

That would mean quite a steady flow, and no microtransactions. (but maybe, then on those servers microtransactions against special services, like the admins do on private servers for free, like.. helping moving your base, or convenience things)

 
I’ll take a page from Guppy’s book and simply state why I like the new system better.

It has room to grow. I see more attributes with all new perks attached coming in the future

It creates choice. Choosing between this OR that is always more interesting to me. When I really want to open up more of my pack AND want to get more resources from harvesting but only one point to spend that is awesome.

It creates more builds. There are so many more viable and different options to choose from where you actually feel strong in some areas and weak in others. In SP this creates unique and different challenges each time I play and when I play with my Mom and brother we can have distinct roles and feel as though our strengths are covering for the weaknesses.

I have spent all points in perception, all points in Strength, all points in Agility, and all points in Fortitude and the game felt different but still viable each time.

For those who speed through the most efficient path no system will offer variety since they will always find the one true path and take it every single time. Can’t develop for those people. The current system is great because I can choose where to spend my points and be strong and by playing the game with a different mix of attributes and perks each time it has stayed fresher longer than A16 did.

In A16 I mined and got better at it automatically without choice. I still mine in A17 but I choose when and how I get better at it. That is more fun for me.

/special boy since 1969

 
Here's some fun numbers to play around with. Unfortunately, because of the way things changed in Steam this past year, and the way Steamspy now requires donations in order to view any relevant data, these numbers won't show up for 2019, or any date after June 2018, but...
Apr 2018 - Owners: 2,919,547 ± 52,034 | Players in the last 2 weeks: 199,675 ± 13,644 (6.84%)

Apr 2017 - Owners: 2,212,409 ± 42,621 | Players in the last 2 weeks: 224,588 ± 13,614 (10.15%)

Apr 2016 - Owners: 1,402,535 ± 30,186 | Players in the last 2 weeks: 159,977 ± 10,216 (11.41%)

Apr 2015 - Owners: 970,362 ± 31,295 | Players in the last 2 weeks: 195,450 ± 14,068 (20.14%)

So game purchases are still trending up (or rather a linear upward trend), but people playing are on a decline. Based on this and other information I've viewed, the number of new players that will exceed 1K hours will be extremely low, whereas the number of people who already exceed 1K hours has already peaked.

This is of course a mere sampling - you'll have to do your own research to see the full spectrum.
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It's currently in the top 25 most played games on Steam (by current players), beating games like Fallout 4, Skyrim, Stardew Valley and a billion other games. Numbers will wax and wane over time but that's still a pretty respectable result for an indie game.

 
In A16 I mined and got better at it automatically without choice. I still mine in A17 but I choose when and how I get better at it. That is more fun for me.
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I'm not gonna argue with you or anything about the skill system...I just find this statement/stance really weird lol.

 
I'll say it again, this new system does not create choice. Just because you perceive it that way doesn't mean it's true. Just means you have fallen for MMs sales pitch.

Even if they add more perks later to match the amount we had before, at any given level there are less potential build choices than there were previously, because of the gating. With the current perks this is true right from your first skill choice. The gap in potential builds only grows from there.

Not to mention that all your remaining choices are now only superficial. You can do one thing and level something entirely different because your choice of activity now has absolutely zero meaning.

The new system is not more extensive than the old one.

Edit: Roland, go build a hybrid character of multiple skill trees. Then tell us how much more choice you have when you are forced to waste several skill point just to get the one skill you really wanted from your secondary tree choice.

 
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No one is suggesting that they're going to bring the old systems back, merely that they're going to continue and work on making the new systems fun.
...it is possible, you know...

(Making them fun)
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Yea honestly, bringing back the old systems would make me the happiest. But I do like the stronger character build system in alpha 17.

 
I’ll take a page from Guppy’s book and simply state why I like the new system better.
It has room to grow. I see more attributes with all new perks attached coming in the future

It creates choice. Choosing between this OR that is always more interesting to me. When I really want to open up more of my pack AND want to get more resources from harvesting but only one point to spend that is awesome.

It creates more builds. There are so many more viable and different options to choose from where you actually feel strong in some areas and weak in others. In SP this creates unique and different challenges each time I play and when I play with my Mom and brother we can have distinct roles and feel as though our strengths are covering for the weaknesses.

I have spent all points in perception, all points in Strength, all points in Agility, and all points in Fortitude and the game felt different but still viable each time.

For those who speed through the most efficient path no system will offer variety since they will always find the one true path and take it every single time. Can’t develop for those people. The current system is great because I can choose where to spend my points and be strong and by playing the game with a different mix of attributes and perks each time it has stayed fresher longer than A16 did.

In A16 I mined and got better at it automatically without choice. I still mine in A17 but I choose when and how I get better at it. That is more fun for me.

/special boy since 1969
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I understand the logic behind the new system. I watch kickz and kage all the time. In the past they were not spending points right away. It was like "whose line is it", the points did not matter.

Well that is ♥♥♥♥ for an rpg. You should love leveling up in an rpg. You should look forward to it, actively try for it. In pre a17 builds no one did. Now we do. Now we plan for forges and mixers and chem stations and trucks. So in this regards, a17 is a huge success.

But why are we talking about the leveling system in a microtransactions thread? because it is the source of the a17 issues. It was a drastic change, that needs some more refinement.

As such, if we want this fixed, then i suspect the best way to get it fixed is to describe how it is influencing our play styles. the game is designed around a certain play style: survival horror. It gets the horror right with vulture, dog, and bear hordes. But the survival aspect needs more work. We are building our sp characters around crafting, so having important crafting things locked behind one attribute is annoying.

 
It's currently in the top 25 most played games on Steam (by current players), beating games like Fallout 4, Skyrim, Stardew Valley and a billion other games. Numbers will wax and wane over time but that's still a pretty respectable result for an indie game.
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7 days is and has been extremely successful, however one of my biggest concerns is sustainability. I feel like with the latest major release, a lot of controversy has turned many people off. It worries me that the devs would get discouraged by this. When Joel released sneak peaks of the A17 features, all the comments were extremely negative. I feel like the devs are starting to lose creativity and are starting to heavily take influence from the structures of other games

 
But why are we talking about the leveling system in a microtransactions thread? because it is the source of the a17 issues. It was a drastic change, that needs some more refinement.
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I think because most of us consider the idea of asking for micro transactions so ridiculous that it's not worth discussing, whereas the tangents that have arisen at least are interesting.

FTR, not spending points immediately in an rpg isn't a bad thing nor should it be considered bad. If anything it is usually a sign that the developers have managed to make a game where what you choose really matters. There are many games where it is advisable to hold off spending your skill point until you are really sure you know what it is you need to invest in. The only games where you should be spending your points immediately without taking time to consider what you need are non-rpg games that have tacked on skill trees to give the player an illusion of having more control over playstyle. That sounds kind of familiar...

 
I think because most of us consider the idea of asking for micro transactions so ridiculous that it's not worth discussing, whereas the tangents that have arisen at least are interesting.
FTR, not spending points immediately in an rpg isn't a bad thing nor should it be considered bad. If anything it is usually a sign that the developers have managed to make a game where what you choose really matters. There are many games where it is advisable to hold off spending your skill point until you are really sure you know what it is you need to invest in. The only games where you should be spending your points immediately without taking time to consider what you need are non-rpg games that have tacked on skill trees to give the player an illusion of having more control over playstyle. That sounds kind of familiar...
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Lol everyone pretty much roasted me about the idea of micro-transactions, which i knew would happen considering how controversial they are. But my main purpose of the entire discussion was to find a way of steadying the player base and giving the devs an incentive to work harder on the game itself.

 
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