PC Looting Progression Plan

[Rasanova]

I voted #2. 

I'm fine with the current loot progression, ie tied to gamestage. What I really DON'T like is getting spammed with the same entirely useless stone junk over and over. It's frustrating opening "specialty" crates and getting nothing but the same stone shovels, axes, and spears that I already have. They can't be sold, they're near pointless to scrap, so I often just end up leaving them. My take is that there should ALWAYS be something of value in a higher value container. That could simply mean that those primitive items have value as scrap, or at a trader.

But after reading the OP, it seems like my concerns are going to be addressed, which is excellent news... I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out! And I'm also looking forward to watching the Steam forums explode if people need to find a key to access a loot stash!

 

[canadianbluebeer]

I chose OTHER.   Right now, it kinda sucks. However, I do see where it's going, and I do like that direction.

So, it's like road construction. Sucky while happening, but the end result is worth it.

 

[Hellsmoke]

Streamers got it on Friday. We got it on Monday....

So what, point still stands.

 

[JasonX]

I do like it and the direction.

If it's too easy the game becomes boring and non-challenging very quickly and I wouldn't want that.

If it's too hard it can become frustrating but that hasn't been my experience so far (I'm on day 22).

Hunger is proving a real challenge and finding myself spending more time hunting for animals (which are scarce).
The loot table is nicely random and I find myself using different armor/weapons. I got lucky with a purple stone axe and brought a green AK47 off a trader so I'm guessing some people are not exploiting all the aspects of the game - and traders/quests can fill in loot drop gaps well.
 

Love the idea of random encounters dropping better loot. I would imagine BANDITS (shameless reminder) and their leader will have good quality drops for their difficulty.

 

[BaconsTV]

I voted 2,

Reason is something I brought up a few days ago in terms of finding primitive loot in a branded sealed box. I mean who ever was living in this house before the zombie outbreak ordered some tools and I highly doubt that a company will even sell primitive tools and furthermore I doubt a person would order them. I also find it extremely annoying to find 2 stone shovels lvl2 and lvl3 in said box. Loot in these boxes should be what you expect to buy from a store stone axe= iron axe / chain saw (later on). Primitive tools imo should probably have a life span of maximum 2 days before they become obsolete for the player. They could be drops from other zombies as perhaps they were in the same situation as us starting out/in trash.

Wall safes is another thing. Finding empty cans??? a bone knife??? Who the hell would store and lock them up in a safe and then burning 10 or more lock picks to open it xD Id expect to find in a wall safe, small items like a knife,pistol,gold,diamonds,silver,old money,tentacle porn mags,bullets,mods.. dunno if a double barrel would fit.

A person hides a bag behind a vent/fake wall, to store an empty can??? I highly doubt a person would go through all that trouble for his/her empty can. 

I understand your point in loot progression however the chance to find something that you would find in a higher game stage needs to be increased. At the same time it feels too scripted in terms of what we get, scrap armour/cloth, once the levels of them are around 3-4 we see lvl1 iron and lvl1 leather.. Its far too predictable and too "strict" 

Steps 4,5,6 sound sweet. 3 however is going back to the whole stone axe thing above. 

 

[beHypE]

I get that it's a temporary state, but the one question I have is... why push that half-assed feature out for A19 ? If I remember correctly, madmole even stated it has been a last minute idea / feature; so basically, what was the motivation behind pushing out Step 1. of a slow/linear/predictable/boring progression, instead of keeping it stashed for when the rest of the feature is ready ?

I voted 2 but quite frankly it's probably a mixture of 1 and 2. I really dislike it as is, and haven't been playing lately and I doubt my group is thrilled about continuing our current game. We'll probably hope for a very good A20, even though madmole stated A20 is gonna be fairly small and mostly polishing / eye candy.

 

[Dracula]

Now that´s some overexaggerating there. The car is impossible to use with no brakes. The game just plays different but you can do what you are supossed to do very good. You just don´t like the way it is right now. 

It is, by no means, impossible.  I can let out the clutch and coast.  That's how I've been moving the car around from place to place as need be.  I can also drive it as-is at highway speeds; provided I can get an unobstructed path to the highway and the vehicle can be slowed via engine braking.  There are means to slow it down and it can be controlled; it's every bit as functional as the loot system in A19; it's not my fault others aren't using the road as I intend for them to so that the glaring flaws in my ability to stop aren't a thing.

 

[eXSe]

Voted 2

I don't care for the loot as it is now, but reading Rolands post gives me some hope for the future. I just hope it gets implemented without any unforeseen hiccups

I like steps 4 through 6 (4 especially because it would give much more diversity to weaponry). I do have a question about that key thingy though... if I'm understanding it right, there would be a key of some sort for the, otherwise, unbreakable and unlockpickable loot crate/crates?

 

[Kalen]

I do have a question about that key thingy though... if I'm understanding it right, there would be a key of some sort for the, otherwise, unbreakable and unlockpickable loot crate/crates?

Correct.   The discussion has been that the key would be found somewhere in the POI, so you'd have to explore the POI in order to loot the loot room.

 

[Reckis]

I noticed that as it stands #4 is in the lead, but most of the people commenting are the same ones that have been @%$*#!ing about the current system since it came out.

The fact of the matter is, if you are persistent enough, you can find what you are looking for even with the current system. The chance IS there, it has just been greatly reduced. I tend to restart a lot with a new alpha, I would say I have probably restarted a dozen times or more (probably more, I don't really count) since EXP dropped, and every play through has been a little different. Every one has been interesting in a different way and exciting, sometimes I don't find the things I want for the build I am trying, sometimes I don't find the other things I want or need.

I love the direction this is taking, even though I think something needs to be done about the sealed crate/safe situation, but then I have always thought that the loot tables are in dire need of refinement.

Off topic, I have to suppress the urge on a daily basis to get on here and tell all the squeaky wheels to have faith or get out (that's the friendly version).

I voted #4, btw.

 

[leaderdog]

I voted Other.  and this is why.

I like how the future sounds... but I still dislike a "primitive" weapon or tool stage. 

1) the pimps need to establish a proper lore. 

  a) Are we shortly after the world toppled from a zombie virus? - if so tools and weapons would be every where

  b) Are we decades after the world toppled? - still weapons and tools would be every where, there are no other people in the world, and why are lights still on in so many        homes and factories even without solar panels...

  c) I've had people try to defend the gamestage with there is magic in the world (look at the ritual satanic stuff in some houses), if you can believe it in and rpg game, then it's believable here.  Which is a terrible answer.  In an rpg game there is an established lore than you can work in, we don't have that, we have some bossy guy that didn't like what you did stripped you and dumped you at the edge of the city.... and?  The current lore seems to suggest we're not long after the fall, and zombies are every... in houses and for some reason people made their house a maze to get to the place they holed up.

2) the current state of looting is deplorable.  This should never have been released in this form.  The pimps could have kept this to testing, or advance a couple stages before inflicting this on the public.  Because right now it feels the pimps had to come up with a better concept since people were so miffed with the current state of looting.  You can build better tools and melee weapons long before you start finding them, which makes looting them later pointless.

3) In a game like this, either we just have to forget everything we know.  I started playing in alpha 10 or 11.  Fell in love once I found out how to actually get things so I could craft (all I did was pick flowers because punching bushes was not an intuitive action for me - had to google how to get things).  Essentially this has been the go to game for me since that.  I gave up playing in the alpha the gunshot melee swing came in (17? because it was horrible.  I was going to quit playing this alpha because of the loot until a buddy pointed out the loot randomize fix on nexus mods.  That's how annoyed I was with it, even though I was very happy the pimps fixed melee swings.

4) I've never felt the game needed RTS stages as that's not what this game has been and I don't like it.  Gamestage was implemented for multiplayer then took on a life of it's own which has led to this.  Gamestage makes far more sense for zones and for minizones that could be military bases and whatever.  Those zones would be the true dangers and special loot..... however, restricting most good items to those areas will then lead to many just doing those areas.  At least give single players the option to shut off gamestage in the future.  Leave it for zones only.  Multiplayer it made sense, so if a player started on a server on day 56 they didn't all of a sudden get a seriously bad night.

5) The progression of tools currently isn't very good.  Stone tools should be pretty much useless.  Right now with mods they're as good as a iron tool requiring less stamina, then the modded iron tool is as good as the steel tool again steel taking up more stamina.... which is silly.  Stone is far heavier and no where near as sharp, it should be the worst on stamina and steel should be the lightest and most effective with stamina.  I never did understand this punishing return for better tools.

The first couple alphas I was so impressed and figure the pimps could do no wrong.  Then I alpha 13 and each alpha came out I was more disappointed in decisions because it felt like it was trying to be other games which it didn't need.  Far too much fallout influence.  Fallout 4 I think was the worst of all the fallout series, and I got so bored of it and regretted wasting money on it (never bothered with fallout 76).  So when the pimps started adding a bunch of the same mechanics I just felt the game was getting worse.  I started modding it and downloading overhauls just to make it playable, or I'd probably have quit and moved on to something else.  So I'm at least pleased the pimps allowed for such large changes in modding.

But I will say this about the current loot system,  there has been several threads complaining about it, and I point them to the mod on nexus, but even the moderators are telling people to bump up the experience gain to 300% so you advance quicker through the "primitive" stage.  I wouldn't be playing it anymore if it wasn't for the random loot mod because the start was so boring.  I appreciate that some enjoy grindiness in their game, or they play it off as a challenge.  but after the 3rd restart I had zero interest in going through that boredom again.

things modded for me to enjoy the game are:

1) stamina penalty and run/swim, I lowered them slightly

2) 60 zombies during day 30 at night (I don't like empty zombie world makes it feel so artificial because they're mainly in houses) Tho we need more random zombies in the     snow biome, seeing 60 lumberjacks is kind of lame.

3) Fawk_Loot_All - returns random looting

4) Fawk Wandering Hores (every wandering horde is around 60+ zombies)

5) I modded out the twitchy/tweaker zombie movement - I never liked those since the first mocap came in... such an unnatural motion for zombies (that I prefer)

6) And testing out Undead Legacy for Subquake.  He's made some very interesting changes.  The weight limitation he added is wonderful.  (I suppose that is a fallout type system that I do like, but it was there since the start.)

So I'm cautiously optimistic about the pimps plan for the future.  And of course anything that I don't like I guess I'll look to mods to assist.

I'll also point out I use melee predominately, so I don't care if I find great weapons, I just want reasonable weapons for emergency use or hunting. 

 

[Roland]

@Roland Do you post such stuff on the offical facebook also? Because a poll on here is not even slightly representative at all.

No....there is nothing official about this poll. It’s just curiosity. TFP has telemetry now which is a much better way than a poll to judge things. Plus people tend to think that by answering a poll they are directing design.  It makes them angry if they see that 60% favor one thing but TFP choose to do the other. That would certainly be true of the FB group. 
 

Not to mention that half of them would vote other and then rant about the console version....

 

[meganoth]

I voted Other.  and this is why.

I like how the future sounds... but I still dislike a "primitive" weapon or tool stage. 

1) the pimps need to establish a proper lore. 

  a) Are we shortly after the world toppled from a zombie virus? - if so tools and weapons would be every where

  b) Are we decades after the world toppled? - still weapons and tools would be every where, there are no other people in the world, and why are lights still on in so many        homes and factories even without solar panels...

  c) I've had people try to defend the gamestage with there is magic in the world (look at the ritual satanic stuff in some houses), if you can believe it in and rpg game, then it's believable here.  Which is a terrible answer.  In an rpg game there is an established lore than you can work in, we don't have that, we have some bossy guy that didn't like what you did stripped you and dumped you at the edge of the city.... and?  The current lore seems to suggest we're not long after the fall, and zombies are every... in houses and for some reason people made their house a maze to get to the place they holed up.

So do you think RPGs have an established lore that explains everything?

Because when I look at typical RPG I always see things that just don't make sense: For example there are always areas or countries that have much higher level NPCs. A basic guard on the street there could easily deal with a troup of highly trained soldiers of the low-level country. How is that possible? And why isn't that low-level country already conquered by any of the other countries, sometimes those are even at war with tthis country. Why, even if the countries around were unusually peaceful, a simple group of bandits from a high-level area could just raze complete cities without a single casualty.

So once TFP adds a story to 7D2D, I can guarantee you there will still be lots and lots of inconsistencies, just like in RPGs and lots and lots of other games. What you are looking for is the simulation genre, that genre is specifically there for simulating reality.

But I will say this about the current loot system,  there has been several threads complaining about it, and I point them to the mod on nexus, but even the moderators are telling people to bump up the experience gain to 300% so you advance quicker through the "primitive" stage.  I wouldn't be playing it anymore if it wasn't for the random loot mod because the start was so boring.  I appreciate that some enjoy grindiness in their game, or they play it off as a challenge.  but after the 3rd restart I had zero interest in going through that boredom again.

I'll gladly give people advice on how to change the game to their liking, even when I think they are loonies who will destroy any fun the game ever had. Especially the advice to bump up experience gain. I would never do such a thing myself (with the current state of the game). Whether I can't see any sense or fun in 300% XP doesn't matter as I don't have to play it.

 

[Roland]

2) the current state of looting is deplorable.  This should never have been released in this form.  The pimps could have kept this to testing, or advance a couple stages before inflicting this on the public.  Because right now it feels the pimps had to come up with a better concept since people were so miffed with the current state of looting.  You can build better tools and melee weapons long before you start finding them, which makes looting them later pointless.

I understand your feeling about wanting to have a playable game but TFP have to have development as their first priority. They need to be able to do things that facilitate their work and priorities and not constantly worry about whether some will like it or not. They provide the means to revert to an earlier version or mod it if the current state is insufferable for whatever reason. Early Access is precisely the umbrella that allows them to release things that are a WIP. 
 

It also is plainly not a universally hated state. Drac calls it utterly unplayable and yet we had 35,000 doing just that this weekend. Maybe next weekend will drop to 10,000 and TFP will take a second look. Maybe their telemetry will show them things that will motivate them to make some adjustments. 
 

But telling them to please wait to release anything until it is done is the antithesis of what we paid to participate in. 

 

[caatalyst]

Definitely not a fan of the current formula and direction the loot system is going.

Personally I'd like to see the loot economy completely decoupled from game stage. There's plenty of survival games that do this just fine. Game stage sounds and is incredibly artificial which really eliminates a lot of the excitement and reason to explore as you would want to when playing.

The A19 system saps all the fun out of looting because it has become so predictable... to the point where I'm actively avoiding containers because I know if I come back and loot them later the loot will magically grow into something better. Very immersion breaking IMO!

I think an RNG system for all tiers and quality levels that stays the same regardless of player level is way more exciting as there is always a chance you will find something better than what you've got. It just needs to be balanced in a way that high tech level gear is rare, and high quality gear is even rarer. As item degradation as been written off and repairing has become so simplified it's too easy to win the game so to speak. Once you've got your Q6 load out the game play loop that once came with keeping on to it (exploring and looting for more parts / upgrades) is gone.

I'd rather see loot gated organically. For example, if you want military grade weapons then go to a military site and this could be made very difficult for a low level player by packing these POIs with dangerous entities and environments.  Sounds like we might be seeing a bit of that in the future from what I've read.

At the moment every POI in every biome feels like it gives you pretty much the same thing. So long as you find the generic container at the end.
 

 

[IrishRed]

I decided to vote Other. 

As I have just recently converted to PC around the beginning of a19 experimental, all I really have to go on is PS4 loot. I'm not sure what alpha that was i think around a16? 

This version of the game is still a New Shiny Toy to me lol!! I've enjoyed most aspects so far.

With the loot system now, I don't fret too much about the stone age because to me it added another layer to slowing down my level progression. I'm really looking forward to see what the future holds. 

Without making this super long winded I'm on bored with everything outlined in the OP.

Adding the modifiers to certain biomes is a great way to get players to venture to other areas. I tend to get comfortable hanging out in the forest and sometimes making a run to the desert to keep up oils shale supplies.  Ut with this i see myself going elsewhere for the challenge and possible legendary equipment. 

Thank you to the entire TFP team and to this community. 

-bit of a ramble sorry. At work and still half asleep. 

 

[Kyonshi]

I chose option 3. I enjoy it the current progression. I dont like when things evolve too rapidly. The fact that there's less chances to find level 6 gear few minutes after starting fresh, while still having a certain probability of happening, i dont mind. Its better than in A18 where you could get OP very quickly. I mean its cool from time to time, but it was occuring too often.

The only thing that bugs me, as for many other players, is what was discussed with @Roland in the following :


2. A safe of any sort should never have primitive stuff in it, ever.


Completely disagree with this. There is no reason not to. What if the safe owner only possessed primitive gear and wanted to keep it safe? I can see your point about the sealed crates if you are assuming they were factory sealed (Madmole states they are not) but anyone can own and lock a safe and not every denizen of apocalypse is going to store exactly the kinds of gear you want in higher tiers than you already own.

I also maintain that primitive stuff shouldnt be in locked safes and sealed boxes. And its not about what we egoistically want to find in them, its about relevance and making sense.

As the loot progression and distribution is conducted, from the design decision the Pimps made and openly declared, if attention to the relevance of what's inside a certain container, in a certain place, is taken into consideration, then it should also be the case for sealed crates and locked safes.

We can all observe and acknowledge that we dont find an engine in a sealed Shamway crate, in a grocery store. If we loot a sports/outdoor clothing store, we will find clothes and footwear. There's reasons for why we find pills and bandages in a Pop N Pills. I mean, there's a book we can find that gives us higher chances of finding jewelry in coffins, because presumably, dead people are buried with beautiful clothing and ornaments.

So the reasons for what's contained in a locked safe should also make sense. What can we find in such thing, during a pre/post-apocalypse? Ammo, guns, family heirlooms (gold, silver, diamond), money (dollar bills), gold again (as if someone would fear legal currency would lose all value), maybe legal documents of some sort, a will or a diary (paper). This is the kind of stuff that's relevant to find in a house safe.

So, no, nobody will lock up a level 1 and a level 2 Stone Shovels, im sorry. This actually happened to me. Maybe a Legendary Stone Axe with a special effect? Ok then. But crap? Nope, that shouldnt be there. If the person had primitive tools, its because they were using them regularly, not to look them up as a priceless treasure or in case of random need.

If then we really gotta play around with words and logic and that a safe can contain stone age stuff, then i should be able to find Honey in a Pass & Gas crate and Wheels in the coffins of the funeral home or in student lockers of the nearby high school.

 

[beHypE]

It also is plainly not a universally hated state. Drac calls it utterly unplayable and yet we had 35,000 doing just that this weekend. Maybe next weekend will drop to 10,000 and TFP will take a second look. Maybe their telemetry will show them things that will motivate them to make some adjustments. 
 

But telling them to please wait to release anything until it is done is the antithesis of what we paid to participate in. 

Mhhhh, I tend to agree and disagree at the same time. I think it was a mistake to release it as is. Do you think it would be a good idea to release bandits that are static entities that don't do anything but shoot on sight ? Just because it is a WIP doesn't mean it has to be released. Sure, you can't always wait for something to be totally done before you release it, but it looks like this was way too premature. At least they got a lot of feedback and realise the roadmap regarding in-game progression is quite big...

Regarding the numbers, they won't show the big picture for a while. The biggest thing that got decimated with this new progression (half-)system is replayability. One of the best indicators is how the game will fare in some weeks, when people either quit realising they need to grind for 20hours until they find their first iron tools that are an upgrade (Q3+) to their stone age gear, or after they ended the gameplay without the thrive for a new game that will playout exactly the same. Or maybe I'm wrong and numbers will stay at an all-time high, but unless A19 somehow got a massive amount of copies sold, I don't see them numbers being better than A18's.

 

[RipClaw]

I also maintain that primitive stuff shouldnt be in locked safes and sealed boxes. And its not about what we egoistically want to find in them, its about relevance and making sense.

I don't understand this but probably that's because I don't care about immersion. For me these are just loot containers with a certain loot table and the logo on the packaging just shows me which loot table it is. I don't care about the rest.

 

[TheRani]

I voted 2.  I am hoping that the pipe weapons and such will help with the primitive stage, but I think it would make more sense to find more weapon and tool parts in safes and crates and such, so that people who want to craft the stuff they are specializing in would be able to do just that.  If I'm specializing in Agility, I would rather be finding handgun parts and bow parts in a Shotgun Messiah box than someone's blunderbuss collection.  You want to make crafting weapons more useful early game?  Give us more parts!