PC Looting Progression Plan

[Roland]

There is a lot of frustration surrounding the looting progression of A19. Some hate the fact that sealed containers have primitive gear in them. I am not going to speak to that in this post. What I want to mainly address is the overall plan as it has been revealed for loot progression. I hope to alleviate fears but I also recognize that you can't please everyone so I'm sure that there will be those upset by even the overall plan and you are welcome to share your opinions here once you understand where this is all headed.

Currently loot progression has been slowed down and gated by gamestage milestones. Once you reach a certain gamestage you will begin to see better loot as well as tougher enemies. This progression is not strictly "leveled loot" but more like "leveled probabilities". You still have a chance at getting high tier gear at low gamestage but it is extremely rare. Probabilities shift towards high quality goods becoming more likely to appear as your gamestage increases. This means of course that you can still also get crappy primitive stuff from time to time even if your gamestage is high.

WHERE IS THIS ALL LEADING?

The good news is that the current progression is just a first step towards an ultimate goal. The goal, in case you were wondering, is to have a wide variety of loot that is exciting to obtain while at the same time maintaining the relevance of crafting in the game. Also the devs want there to be differentiation and risk assessment when deciding to go for particular loot. Historically it hasn't really mattered much where you looted as it was all the same loot wherever you went. Shotgun Messiah boxes in a simply house attic in the forest was exactly the same as Shotgun Messiah boxes in the Factory in the wasteland. The devs want the latter to have more exiting things in them as long as the player is willing to take on the greater risk in obtaining them.

WHAT CHANGES WILL BRING THIS ABOUT?

These are the changes revealed by Madmole in the dev diary that they plan to do. There has been nothing said yet about backtracking any of these design choices so as of now these steps are still the plan. Other than Step 1 which has already happened there is not particular order to the next steps and most if not all of the rest could be completed by time A20 comes out so the order won't really matter to us.

Step 1: Tie both loot and enemies to player gamestage. This has been slowly happening (mostly with enemies) since A17 but really took a huge noticeable leap in A19 when the loot had its turn to get in line with gamestage. THIS IS THE PRESENT STATE

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ PLANNED

Step 2: Add a modifier to each biome and each POI that increases the player's gamestage while inside it by a certain amount. That modifier could be zero or it could be much higher. Modifiers of POIs within Biomes with modifiers would stack. By making it possible for POI's and Biomes to have a higher gamestage rating that will result in both tougher enemies and better loot.

Step 3: Add primitive weaponry for each attribute tree so that there is greater variety of weaponry that works well with each attribute during the primitive stage.

Step 4: Add legendary weaponry so that there is even greater variety. The most recent remarks by Madmole that I remember were that legendaries will be of any quality tier but have special mods pre-attached that will give great bonuses when using that weapon. Could this mean that plain quality six gear could be re-opened to crafting? Possibly but that hasn't been confirmed.

Step 5: Add a Random Encounter Manager so that random encounters can happen giving the player the illusion of greater zombie activity without hurting performance. This feature would also tie into the gamestage system to create a range of risky encounters. An example would be a regular supply drop would have gamestage modifier of 0. But the random encounter manager could place a crew of bandits around that supply drop adding a significant gamestage modifier and thus making the loot in that supply drop much better than it would have been.

Step 6: Implement a method for preventing the nerdpole smash and grab. There has been no official word on what that method will be although Madmole seems to like the idea of needing to find a key.

RAMIFICATIONS

Once all the pieces are in place we will be back to a world with diverse loot to be scavenged-- way more diverse than ever before. Players will decide for themselves by assessing risk and rewards for whether they want to play it safe and slowly progress by sticking to easier areas and letting their own unmodified gamestage determine the loot they get and enemies they face or whether they want to enter the wasteland and search an infested factory for the best loot. If they get it and survive then they will have a definite advantage in the early game.

One thing I didn't mention which could also relate is that there is code right now for three levels of radiation with indicators for the player for when they enter areas of that intensity of radiation. It seems that this, once implemented, could tie in as well to this system but it hasn't been mentioned like the six I outlined by Madmole.

 

[Hellsmoke]

I voted 1 because as is, I can't find the desire to even start a game after seeing so many blunderbusses on the Youtubers play through. That said I don't keep up with the dev diary so I had no idea what future plans were and after reading them now I find them very interesting. 

The reason I voted option 1 is because the question was "how do you feel about the CURRENT loot progression" and in the current state it is in, I can't bring myself to play it. I think it was a bad idea to release this in the current state it is in because we have to live with it for quite some time. 

The reason I dislike it is because when I start a game, the worst part for me is having to break that first stone, that first tree. You literally beat on those things like 50 times before you get a little stone or wood so I usually don't gather much material until I have a few skills, I just can't do it with the stamina restrictions. Instead I go looting, kill some zambies and level a bit to increase my stamina and the speed in which I can gather materials to start building anything. 

As it is now, looting is no longer worth it imo and I have no clue what I am supposed to even do other than suffer lol. I really can't imagine how to even begin and this is what stopped me from playing A19.

I knew there would be changes eventually and I'm sure we have all skipped an Alpha so it's not a big deal to me really. There are more things that add to my hesitation and that is the fact that not all zombies are done yet and I'd kinda like to see the whole package when it is done rather than half done. There are also other things like performance but that is a discussion for another thread or could just be my PC which is good but could have some kind of issue somewhere and I just don't feel like messing with it as all other games run perfectly.

Long story short, the CURRENT state is awful but what they have planned for the future as far as looting goes sounds really good. I'm confident they will hit the sweet spot eventually.

 

[RestInPieces]

I voted 1) AKA "I don't feel like playing in its current state" (a less... sensational choice of words), since the poll is about about its current state, even if the future may sound fine. As for the "it was a necessary step™", no comment.

 

[Teacyn]

I voted two because I can tolerate it as it currently is but I am not happy with it. I'm interested to see where they go with it, but in the current state I would vastly prefer the A18 system back. I have faith they'll do something better with it, but I hope that's the primary focus of A20 or at the latest A21. I probably have 1-2 more games in me under the current system (assuming no expansions or changes) and that's about it. The fact Traders aren't 100% locked to your gamestage is the only reason I'm able to tolerate it, because it's nice to be able to get something outside of my gamestage if I work up for it a bunch.

(Also, I find it extremely annoying you can find random primitive post-apocalypse stuff in sealed containers and I would prefer it if they exclusively gave pre-apocalypse stuff, but this isn't the point of this thread)

 

[Tmodloader]

I voted 1 because as is, I can't find the desire to even start a game after seeing so many blunderbusses on the Youtubers play through. 

You need to stop watching and start playing, I've seen 1 blunderbuss my entire run and at gamestage 80 now.

"I like it. I really like the direction this is going and the future sounds even better."

Voted this however, it could go south if they make zombies and items scale too directly so that you don't feel more powerful. As is luckily regular zombies still spawn at higher gamestages and I hope that remains in the future to build a foundation for the sense of becoming stronger. If both loot and zombies scaled entirely in power with gamestage you'd be left with a game that feels samey regardless of your equipment.

 

[Hellsmoke]

You need to stop watching and start playing, I've seen 1 blunderbuss my entire run and at gamestage 80 now.

"I like it. I really like the direction this is going and the future sounds even better."

Voted this however, it could go south if they make zombies and items scale too directly so that you don't feel more powerful. As is luckily regular zombies still spawn at higher gamestages and I hope that remains in the future to build a foundation for the sense of becoming stronger. If both loot and zombies scaled entirely in power with gamestage you'd be left with a game that feels samey regardless of your equipment.

Well seeing as to how the streamers got it a week early I couldn't play and by the time that week was done, I had seen all I need to see. EVERY person I watched and I watched them all a bit, had an inventory full of them within like an hour so I find your statement hard to believe or maybe you just had bad luck or good luck depending on how you feel about the thing.  I was never a fan of it since I started playing around Alpha 8 or so.

Even if my experience were to be similar to yours what would I get instead, stone tools? I'm sorry, that doesn't do it for me. I'm bored before I start knowing that no matter what poi I find and no matter what box I find that I am limited to a very small selection of the same few stone items. I don't want it all at the start but knowing there is a chance to get ANYTHING is what drives me to go loot. Not knowing what you will get makes it exciting for me. 

I'm currently playing Space Engineers and working on a really nice ship. When I sit down to play I do consider my options and I'm more inclined to work on my ship atm based on what I saw and the performance issues I had when I started up the game and ran around for 5 minutes. I'm just being honest as bad as it may sound to some but this is how I feel about it. 

I'm not rage quitting, I'm not cursing the devs, I'm simply not inclined to play it in this current state and that's fine. I had the same frustration when they added the hunger sounds in Alpha 10 or 11 I think and it sounded like my guy was @%$*#!ting himself every few seconds lol. I actually went back an Alpha then because I couldn't take it. Eventually it improved and I forgot all about it. I'll let them sort it out and try it again when Alpha 20 drops.

 

[Laz Man]

Well seeing as to how the streamers got it a week early I couldn't play and by the time that week was done, I had seen all I need to see. EVERY person I watched and I watched them all a bit, had an inventory full of them within like an hour so I find your statement hard to believe or maybe you just had bad luck or good luck depending on how you feel about the thing.  I was never a fan of it since I started playing around Alpha 8 or so.

Even if my experience were to be similar to yours what would I get instead, stone tools? I'm sorry, that doesn't do it for me. I'm bored before I start knowing that no matter what poi I find and no matter what box I find that I am limited to a very small selection of the same few stone items. I don't want it all at the start but knowing there is a chance to get ANYTHING is what drives me to go loot. Not knowing what you will get makes it exciting for me. 

I'm currently playing Space Engineers and working on a really nice ship. When I sit down to play I do consider my options and I'm more inclined to work on my ship atm based on what I saw and the performance issues I had when I started up the game and ran around for 5 minutes. I'm just being honest as bad as it may sound to some but this is how I feel about it. 

I'm not rage quitting, I'm not cursing the devs, I'm simply not inclined to play it in this current state and that's fine. I had the same frustration when they added the hunger sounds in Alpha 10 or 11 I think and it sounded like my guy was shting himself every few seconds lol. I actually went back an Alpha then because I couldn't take it. Eventually it improved and I forgot all about it. I'll let them sort it out and try it again when Alpha 20 drops.

I like your responses and respect your stance.  I accept some people don't like the early game struggle and hope when things are more developed, you will continue to find enjoyment in the game. 

As for me, I like the changes as the early stage of the game (e.g. stone age) felt underutilized which was a darn shame.  The primitive stage is relatively short still and doesn't feel like its overdone in its current form.

I like the plan because it stretches the power curve with more variety/tiers of weapons which adds more depth to the game.

I am really looking forward to the higher challenge/risk/reward locals as it will give players (especially vets) a way to progress through the game faster based on their skill level.

 

[FalcoDeLupvs]

I voted other:

I understand the desire to try to limit higher tier loot from getting in the hands of low level players (or low game stage). However, I don't think the current method is the way to go but some of the ideas outlined in the future have merit.

Also, the loot system is, from a player perspective, rather intimately tied to the crafting system.  Currently the crafting system is broken for both weapons and armor.  For instance, I can make level 5 Iron armor that is as good or better than most of the level 5 steel armor I make.  This should never be the case, especially since the steel takes steel parts and the iron doesn't take any parts.  Thus, I find myself buying low level steel armor when I see it at the trader simply to scrap for the steel armor parts so I can get enough parts to try yet again to make a good level 5 steel armor piece.

Specifically I think:

Definition:  In my suggestions below, Primitive means Stone anything, primitive bows and blunderbusses.  Iron and up is ok. Padded armor is even ok.

1.  A sealed box should never have primitive stuff in it, ever.  That means some places simply should not have sealed boxes.  Maybe they just get cardboard boxes?

2. A safe of any sort should never have primitive stuff in it, ever.

3. It should never, ever be the case where a container has both ammo for guns but only primitive weapons.  This means any type of box, gun bags, reinforced chests, etc.

4. ANY sealed box should be in an area with either a ton of lower level z's or an area with appropriately high level zombies or bandits or something.   It Should be difficult to get to.  Maybe you can use the game stage idea here and automatically up the game stage a ways for those areas.

5. Random encounters sound good.

6. The fact that buried treasure now requires a key to open is ridiculous.  We only find out about the treasure from maps left behind by dying survivors.   So why should it also be locked and they provide only the map but not the key?

7. It should never be the case where I go to the SM store or factory, at a low level, and only find primitive stuff on the walls or cases.  It does sound like you want to try to fix that by upping the game stage for those poi.  That sounds good, but I would hope you Set the Game Stage to a Specific Minimum Level for a Specific POI so that even if i'm level 2, if i'm good enough to survive, I'll find at the VERY LEAST hunting rifles, shot guns, ak's, pistols, high level padded & scrap or mid leather or iron.  etc.

8. Book cases, shelves etc:  Far too often all I find, even at book stores, is paper, not books, especially at low levels, but even now at game stage 95+.  This should not be the case, Unless you are trying to say the books have rotted.. but in that case, there would not be any paper either.   Book shelves and especially book stores should have a high rate of having books on/in them, or nothing.   So if I see a book shelf that looks like it has books in it, then I should find some sort of book.  Might just be "Jack and Jill" but still a book!  In such a case the book could be scrapped to paper...

Ok, that's it for now.  Otherwise, "Looking good Etzy"  (from Kingsmen)

 

[RipClaw]

Step 2: Add a modifier to each biome and each POI that increases the player's gamestage while inside it by a certain amount. That modifier could be zero or it could be much higher. Modifiers of POIs within Biomes with modifiers would stack. By making it possible for POI's and Biomes to have a higher gamestage rating that will result in both tougher enemies and better loot.

Does this increase always happen or only until the player has passed a certain game level? If, for example, the POI has a gamestage of 120 but the player already has a gamestage of 150, will the 120 be added to the existing gamestage of 150 or will then the player's gamestage count?

 

[Kahrston]

I voted for 2 as well. The future progression does sound good and I hope it manifests but currently the early game loot is so sad that it's almost not worth it. For a couple of  examples, I looted a mid-sized Working Stiffs Tools on day 2 and ended up with over 20 stone shovels between lvls 1-3. I started another game with a few friends and we looted the same type of Working Stiffs POI on day 3 and received over 20 stone shovels again.

I understand that the devs are trying to balance the early game loot but this was just frustrating. This basically is just going to force players to spend skill points into certain skills to make tools/weapons in the early game that by day 14 they may never use again. A little more randomness in looting, even if it's just a very small chance, would alleviate some people's frustration a lot. A 1-3% chance to get a lvl 1 iron sledge/crossbow/pistol/etc... in early game stages would make a lot of people just go loot more and more to try to get what they need before the first Blood Moon shows up.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[MechanicalLens]

6. The fact that buried treasure now requires a key to open is ridiculous.  We only find out about the treasure from maps left behind by dying survivors.   So why should it also be locked and they provide only the map but not the key?

Eh? What do you mean by "key"?

 

[Kahrston]

Eh? What do you mean by "key"?

I think he just means that the buried chest is now locked and must be picked or beat down to be opened.

 

[MechanicalLens]

I think he just means that the buried chest is now locked and must be picked or beat down to be opened.

Oh alright. I was like, "What? You have to find a treasure map AND a key now as well?"  Thanks for clarifying.

 

[IronClaw68]

I don't mind start game. I run around to find makings for tutorial; rarely have to punch rocks/trees with bare hands. I can live with stone tools, but look forward to TFP progression with gamestage leveling. Would love random OMG find in early loot, tho'. That adrenaline rush keeps me hyped for a while and gives me hope.....  Overall I'm happy with the direction TFP taking game and impressed with their dedication, imagination and coding skills. It's all magic to me...... I voted Option 3.

 

[Roland]

1.  A sealed box should never have primitive stuff in it, ever.  That means some places simply should not have sealed boxes.  Maybe they just get cardboard boxes?

I can agree with this. I don't really care as it doesn't bug me but if TFP want to redo all the treasure room containers or just rename them from "sealed" to "repurposed" I have no problem with that. I want people who care to be happy.

2. A safe of any sort should never have primitive stuff in it, ever.

Completely disagree with this. There is no reason not to. What if the safe owner only possessed primitive gear and wanted to keep it safe? I can see your point about the sealed crates if you are assuming they were factory sealed (Madmole states they are not) but anyone can own and lock a safe and not every denizen of apocalypse is going to store exactly the kinds of gear you want in higher tiers than you already own.

3. It should never, ever be the case where a container has both ammo for guns but only primitive weapons.  This means any type of box, gun bags, reinforced chests, etc.

wut? I mean...you will probably get what you want once the new weapons are in. Then we will probably have junk ammo and blunderbus ammo assuming the new primitive weapons fire those ammo types. Arrows as well. But I really don't see the aversion to a container that has a really nice stone spear and 50 rounds of 9mm ammo as well. Why not? Maybe the guy you're raiding isn't really organized and just throws everything together. I have crate like that for later storing. If we were playing PvP and you raided my base you'd be shaking your head all over the place about the stuff I store together in the same container...

6. The fact that buried treasure now requires a key to open is ridiculous.  We only find out about the treasure from maps left behind by dying survivors.   So why should it also be locked and they provide only the map but not the key?

There are no keys for buried treasures. You have to pound them open, use C4, or use lock picks. They are meant to be something that gives those items a reason for existing. No keys though.

7. It should never be the case where I go to the SM store or factory, at a low level, and only find primitive stuff on the walls or cases.  It does sound like you want to try to fix that by upping the game stage for those poi.  That sounds good, but I would hope you Set the Game Stage to a Specific Minimum Level for a Specific POI so that even if i'm level 2, if i'm good enough to survive, I'll find at the VERY LEAST hunting rifles, shot guns, ak's, pistols, high level padded & scrap or mid leather or iron.  etc.

That will be their choice on how to balance but depending on how much an area raises your gamestage it isn't going to care about what level you are. If the gamestage is high enough you will have a good chance to get good gear.

8. Book cases, shelves etc:  Far too often all I find, even at book stores, is paper, not books, especially at low levels, but even now at game stage 95+.  This should not be the case, Unless you are trying to say the books have rotted.. but in that case, there would not be any paper either.   Book shelves and especially book stores should have a high rate of having books on/in them, or nothing.   So if I see a book shelf that looks like it has books in it, then I should find some sort of book.  Might just be "Jack and Jill" but still a book!  In such a case the book could be scrapped to paper...

I disagree. Books are supposed to be uncommon. It should be quite an acheivement to complete a full set. I think it is much better to have a high degree of paper which represents unreadable books with somewhat rare chances at books. A bookshelf could have a lot of books but they might all be fiction novels that give no relevant knowledge about the apocalypse and so are just a bunch of....paper.

Does this increase always happen or only until the player has passed a certain game level? If, for example, the POI has a gamestage of 120 but the player already has a gamestage of 150, will the 120 be added to the existing gamestage of 150 or will then the player's gamestage count?

Good question that I don't know the answer to 100%. My understanding is that the player's gamestage would be modified. So the area isn't a 120 gamestage area, instead whoever enters gets 100 added to their gamestage while they are in that particular zone. I don't know how it will work exactly for parties.

 

[Dracula]

I voted for the first one; but I'm somewhere in between 1 and 2.  I'd like to see it develop into something better, but, until then, it should be reverted to A18 so the game is playable.  I have a mod to do just that and it enabled me to play A19 for the first time since I grew bored shortly after its release.

Having grand designs does not make it playable in the mean time.  What "is coming" doesn't mean playability isn't a problem now; one that could be fixed by temporarily reverting to A18 looting.

Let me use a real-world example:

I've been building a hot rod.  It has the body of a 1950 Rolls Royce and a Cummins 12v engine mated to a 5-speed.  Unfortunately, due to the chassis modifications, I have to completely fabricate all new brake lines.  As such, it has no brakes.  It doesn't matter how much acceleration the 4.10 gearing in the rear gives it or how comfortable the custom Mercedes-sourced seats are, until I finish plumbing the brakes, it's unusable no matter how cool it will be when on the road.

That's how I see A19; no matter what the loot system is a precursor to, it does not work as it is.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Option 2.

And as always: Make the forge impossible on the first few days and introduce a scrap/junk metal tier for tools and weapons after the stone age and before the forge.

What needs to go for the future plans to work, are those main loots like shamway factory, that are easily reachable without seeing a single zombie.

@Dracula Now that´s some overexaggerating there. The car is impossible to use with no brakes. The game just plays different but you can do what you are supossed to do very good. You just don´t like the way it is right now. 

Tell me any game where you can get the good stuff by killing 4 everyday enemies please? In 7days you walk into a tiny house that you know has a reinforced chest and a shotgun crate, kill 4 weak zombies and you can get T6 overpowered stuff there. 

The future for this game is pretty much what every other game out there is already. The good stuff doesn´t just fall into your lap, you need to work for it. Man you would hate Borderlands and the bossfights to get the good stuff. (with a tiny chance to actually drop what you are looking for)

@Roland Do you post such stuff on the offical facebook also? Because a poll on here is not even slightly representative at all. On FB a funny screenshot get´s more likes in an hour than 5 polls on here have votes overall.

If you really want a valid opinon from the players you need more way more reach than you have on this forum. Facebook, Steam and whatever platform TFP else uses.

 

[JCrook1028]

Well seeing as to how the streamers got it a week early I couldn't play and by the time that week was done

Streamers got it on Friday. We got it on Monday....

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@JCrook1028 The Mondy release for the public, is what most people really annoys about the streamer weekend. You can see all the new shiny stuff all the weekend, and when you can finally play it, you have a full week of work ahead of you. One reason i don´t watch a single streamer on streamer weekend, mainly because i want to discover things myself tough.

 

[theFlu]

Voted 1.. I'd rather have the A18 system than the current one. The future sounds fine, even preferable to A18, but this bare bones interim version is significantly worse.

If you don't get around to completing the system, don't touch traders yet; they're the only source of any variance currently. I dislike having the game so focused on collecting dukes, but at least it's something to do while waiting for the loot to improve...