PC Log Spikes

Someone made a modlet to add them back in (sorry, I forget who). Look around the forums Game Mods section.
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Did you actualy read the thread? The question was clearly if they were coming back to the base game and not how to mod them back in.

At the end of the day the game is LESS FUN without them, having to place 30x more spikes (still really ♥♥♥♥ ones) isnt fun in the slightest

 
I give you the TL DR up front. Explain what problem the log spikes solve if you want them added back in.
Don’t you see that I was responding to a specific post? Creating an army of crawlers isn’t fun. It’s easy mode. If spikes were still in the game you could create a field of spikes and a platform base and never have to worry about zombies. That is not the game the devs want to create. If there is a specific problem that A17 creates that the absence of log spikes exacerbates, you should clearly state what that problem is. The devs might be responsive and offer a solution. Asking for the return of a block that did not positively contribute to game play and is universally exploited is just whinging that will have little effect on the devs. If you want changes, you need to be persuasive and explain the gameplay style, the problem, and maybe even offer a solution. Crying that the devs took your favorite toy away accomplishes nothing.

More to the point claiming that the game isn’t fun without log spikes is bull♥♥♥♥ and that is what I was responding to.
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So much of what you have said is subjective bull♥♥♥♥, the log spikes had no positive influence on the gameplay? Why the bloody hell have we all used them for so long then?

A base having strong enough defenses to deal with a horde on its own (passive defense) isnt a bad thing. Simple solution for people who hate 'how OP log spikes are' dont use them! Seriously nobody was making you use them.

As far as them looking 'bad' when zombies interact with them... A17 with its stupid bouncing zombies might not be the right time to be worried about how they look on spikes....

 
Do have to disagree with you Wolfy.

Just because people use them doesn't mean they are a netpositive for the game.

If there was a gun that you aquired day 1 and was better than any other gun with infinite ammo, everyone would use it. But it would subtract from the overall fun of the game, as looting weapons was no longer part of that.

So spikes were a "get out of hordenight free" tool in A16. Just build like 10 rows of them and a small pit and you were good for... nearly indefinatly.

But this is where I agree with you:

They DID have a positive influence on the game. They were a semi-permanent trap for the early game. Something that is now entirely missing.

Barbed wire sure is usefull, but it is neither semi-permanent (depending on your build it might be), nor do they deal damage enough to actually kill some zombies.

So the first trap that works similar as spikes is the blade trap. Which is super highend and (without abusing the ai) super ressource intensive if you want to defend a larger area.

They basically took away one stage in basedefence without a replacement, just because they didn't like it in its current iteration.

So yeah... disagree with the "everyone used it therefor it was good" statement, stand behind you in saying log spikes WERE actually good, if unbalanced.

 
Something to thing about. The devs changed how zombies react to traps. From what I’ve seen traps (wood spikes, barb wire, etc,) no longer turn zombies into crawlers. Wood spikes damage and barb wire slows. In A16 barb wire could turn zombies into crawlers. Since the devs decided to remove a trap’s ability to turn zombies into crawlers, what role do log spikes play? How are they not duplicative of wood spikes or barb wire? And if they performed worse than either wood spikes or barb wire why would anyone use them? I also think people are forgetting that log spikes did not become extremely popular until after the devs increased the crafting cost of wood spikes.

With respect to claims that the devs don’t listen, did they not change the level requirements on bicycles? Did they not change the crafting requirements on bicycles to not require workbench? Did they not just announce changes to be level gating if perks? The devs listen fine, and they implement solutions which are inline with their vision of the game. If your objection is to the devs’ vision for the game, you are not going to get much traction with a solution that is inconsistent with that vision. If you offer a solution which improves that vision, they may implement it.

 
Bah. Bring back the original log spikes. The narrow ones that actually looked dangerous. Consider if you actually built something of the dimensions we see with the most recent ones. Would this thing even be dangerous? Is there any real point (no pun intended) to covering the lower 90% with plating? Make the base just a little wider and you've got a Sit-N-Spin.

:smile-new:

-Morloc

 
Can belive this, the game has gotten less and less fun since Gazz was allowed to 'balance' things.
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Agreed lol. I remember when I used to make bases and day 7 was like tower defense.

Spikes and building in general have not been worth it for a while. Even if you do build, you are just exploiting zombie AI since they chew through everything so fast.

This version of the game is really good though, just the building and tower defense is mostly gone.

Still kinda fun to camp in a crappy base just to watch it get destroyed and run away though lol.

Maybe I will spam spikes just to see how many hundreds of thousands of spikes it takes to stop a horde now lol.

 
Agreed lol. I remember when I used to make bases and day 7 was like tower defense.
Spikes and building in general have not been worth it for a while. Even if you do build, you are just exploiting zombie AI since they chew through everything so fast.

This version of the game is really good though, just the building and tower defense is mostly gone.

Still kinda fun to camp in a crappy base just to watch it get destroyed and run away though lol.

Maybe I will spam spikes just to see how many hundreds of thousands of spikes it takes to stop a horde now lol.
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I've got a base with lot of spikes.

If you put barbed fence on top of them, doesn't take a lot.

Zeds slow down enough hat you can pick them off.

It's not as powerful as the old Steel spikes but so what?

Those were a bit OP. [At least that's what TFP think.]

 
I've got a base with lot of spikes.
If you put barbed fence on top of them, doesn't take a lot.

Zeds slow down enough hat you can pick them off.

It's not as powerful as the old Steel spikes but so what?

Those were a bit OP. [At least that's what TFP think.]
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I just have not really seen it be worth while in a long time. I can just run or hide from the horde and kill them in the morning and waste nothing.

The cost in resources to fight the horde is a lot.

Anything I build that is not torn to the ground in seconds is because I am abusing their AI.

I don't like wasting resources or abusing the AI so I just avoid it.

I might try more stuff when I can buy a lot from the traders.

This build is a lot of fun for me, but the tower defense part of the game has been dead for me for a long time.

 
I just have not really seen it be worth while in a long time. I can just run or hide from the horde and kill them in the morning and waste nothing.
The cost in resources to fight the horde is a lot.

Anything I build that is not torn to the ground in seconds is because I am abusing their AI.

I don't like wasting resources or abusing the AI so I just avoid it.

I might try more stuff when I can buy a lot from the traders.

This build is a lot of fun for me, but the tower defense part of the game has been dead for me for a long time.
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That's fine.

Hey if you're having fun you're doing it right!

I prefer to take them head on and get a little action.

I also enjoy coming up with base designs that efficiently kill zombies.

[Without cheesing them too much.]

Everyone has their thing.

 
I got the modlet to put them back in a while ago. They don't turn zombies into crawlers anymore... I think it may be at least partially due to a removal of dismember thresholds - All dismemberment seems to be purely chance based now, not based on a damage threshold, and then ONLY if you have the appropriate perks. Removing the thresholds is a change I hate in general but eh, different issue.

As amusing as it was hearing/seeing legs exploding all the time, they are much more balanced this way. I don't really see them as that unbalanced now. They are wood spikes that do less damage but last a bit longer. Upside down spikes could be fixed by disabling advanced rotation, durability could be reduced a little...The real issue is the derpy pathing/collision model. Maybe could make collision model so the bottom 3/4 of the block a flat square shape and have them slightly clip through the tip, make it so only that part does damage. That might look weird though.

I don't really know, if they're out they're out, but I see a lot of arguments for completely removing a thing because of one issue with it instead of simply fixing said issue. If something is fundamentally flawed that is one thing, like these may be, but like, if the issue is that it makes their legs explode, then just stop it from exploding legs. Which, removing the thresholds seems to have done that. I would rather have the threshold though considering these are out anyway.

 
With respect to claims that the devs don’t listen, did they not change the level requirements on bicycles? Did they not change the crafting requirements on bicycles to not require workbench? Did they not just announce changes to be level gating if perks? The devs listen fine, and they implement solutions which are inline with their vision of the game. If your objection is to the devs’ vision for the game, you are not going to get much traction with a solution that is inconsistent with that vision. If you offer a solution which improves that vision, they may implement it.
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Well obviously they take feedback on some things. (I mean... maybe they don'T and its just coincidence what they balance, but I don't want to imply malice here) But what they don't (usually) do is change things that they are set on. They take the "silent" "accepting" crowd as an excuse that most people don't care, when in fact, most people don't care about most things, because they aren't invested or have enough info to give feedback.

This is the case in every medium. Only ~1/10 to 1/100 people leave a like/dislike on youtube videos. And even less feel motivated to comment.

And while you could very easily say "well 99.000 people didn't dislike the video, therefor the 1000 dislikes and hundrets of negative comments are just the loud majority" this is not what a dev SHOULD do.

Don'T get me wrong. Don'T ever buckle to peer pressure. But you ARE an EA title. If you do something like introduce stupid levelgates and perks instead of learning-by-doing and people call you out, don't say "ah they are just kneejerking around". Go out there and explain what your issues are, what you have faced and why you descided (maybe with the future in mind) to change the system and what changes you intend to bring to it.

Example is zombie A.I.

There is way less pushback on that, than on Levelgates BUT it was already stated, that they will adress the issues and will program in a certain randomness (which will probably still be too little because they don't really want basebuilders to be able to hide but thats another issue).

THIS IS HOW YOU SHOULD DO SOMETHING.

ADRESS WHAT PEOPLE DISLIKE. And if you do not want to change it, give reasons why. Don't just go and ignore most of the people and wave them off because they are just the "loud minority".

PS: they have anounced changes to levelgating? Really? Have I missed something? I just looked over every relevant thread and I have not seen anything... maybe in a tweet or something?

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I don't mind the new spikes.
What have people got against them?

They work and they look pretty cool.
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There are no new... oh you mean the iron ones? Well maybe because they break after 2-3 zombies, thats why :D

They aren't semi-permanent.

 
PS: they have anounced changes to levelgating? Really? Have I missed something? I just looked over every relevant thread and I have not seen anything... maybe in a tweet or something?
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Yeah, go look at madmoles posts. They are working on making it so you can specialize early now instead.

Much better since the way it is done now everyone mostly generalizes, cause what choice do you have? lol

The whole point in doing that type of system in the first place was so that you would have to specialize, heh.

 
Well obviously they take feedback on some things. (I mean... maybe they don'T and its just coincidence what they balance, but I don't want to imply malice here) But what they don't (usually) do is change things that they are set on. They take the "silent" "accepting" crowd as an excuse that most people don't care, when in fact, most people don't care about most things, because they aren't invested or have enough info to give feedback.
This is the case in every medium. Only ~1/10 to 1/100 people leave a like/dislike on youtube videos. And even less feel motivated to comment.

And while you could very easily say "well 99.000 people didn't dislike the video, therefor the 1000 dislikes and hundrets of negative comments are just the loud majority" this is not what a dev SHOULD do.

Don'T get me wrong. Don'T ever buckle to peer pressure. But you ARE an EA title. If you do something like introduce stupid levelgates and perks instead of learning-by-doing and people call you out, don't say "ah they are just kneejerking around". Go out there and explain what your issues are, what you have faced and why you descided (maybe with the future in mind) to change the system and what changes you intend to bring to it.

Example is zombie A.I.

There is way less pushback on that, than on Levelgates BUT it was already stated, that they will adress the issues and will program in a certain randomness (which will probably still be too little because they don't really want basebuilders to be able to hide but thats another issue).

THIS IS HOW YOU SHOULD DO SOMETHING.

ADRESS WHAT PEOPLE DISLIKE. And if you do not want to change it, give reasons why. Don't just go and ignore most of the people and wave them off because they are just the "loud minority".

PS: they have anounced changes to levelgating? Really? Have I missed something? I just looked over every relevant thread and I have not seen anything... maybe in a tweet or something?

- - - Updated - - -

There are no new... oh you mean the iron ones? Well maybe because they break after 2-3 zombies, thats why :D

They aren't semi-permanent.
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Exactly this is why people have always liked the log spikes, less damage and more durability.

Remember folks, this alpha gives us more 'choices' than ever before.

The ♥♥♥♥ty spikes break stupidly fast for the ammount of resources you sink into them, its nothing more than another grind from gazz, rember when we got 50 wood from a tree and they cost 100 to make? I sure do

As far as log spikes being a get out of hordenight free... are you on crack? They cost resources to not only build but maintain, and to be honest untill they were fully upgraded iron they would more often get replaced with fresh ones than repaired.

By your own logic turrets and blade traps are also 'get out of horde night free'.

As far as adressing what people dislike? Pretty clearly at least some of us dislike log spikes being removed.

-Edit

If anyone wants to help with some quick math: how much do the wood spikes cost to craft in the current build? and how much wood is gathered per tree (NO perks). From there we can work out how many trees we need to grind to surround a 5x5,9x9 ect with X rows of the ♥♥♥♥ty spikes.

Also yeah changes to level gating:there is still level gating, litteraly nothing is changing other than how the gates are represented.

 
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Okay well I'll admit the new steel spikes do break a little too fast.

Maybe if they were just adjusted a little, they'd be fine.

I still don't know if I would want to see the Old spikes back.

Even if it's a case of lower damage + higher durability,

people will just build an extra couple rows of them and they'd have a passive defense that's OP again.

If TFP feel that the old spikes were too OP and defense was too easy, I just don't see Log spikes coming back.

[Nor do I see them adjusting the new steel spikes]

Hate to say it but this may be a Mod-only-solution item that we're wasting our time debating.

 
Even if it's a case of lower damage + higher durability,

people will just build an extra couple rows of them and they'd have a passive defense that's OP again.
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I understand you/tfps. I really do. BUT if someone is willing to go chopping wood/iron 24/7 for weeks and still has no weapons he HAS to have passive defenses.

Just make them way more expensive, so that you can't simply "build an extra couple of rows" and lower the damage so that everything feral/cop'ish won't get killed as fast as they regenerate. This means it is not an endgame solution, but it is still viable.

I was always a vivid advocate for "harder" gamemodes.

I feel like "insane" should influence spawning, movementspeed, hp, but also pathing and more.

But saying "we don't want you to be a builder because we want you to interact with the horde, even though you still have a bow and the only thing between you and the horde are your defenses" is in no way fun nor rewarding and only alienates players.

YES its their game, but I still feel strongly its the wrong move.

 
Did you actualy read the thread? The question was clearly if they were coming back to the base game and not how to mod them back in.
At the end of the day the game is LESS FUN without them, having to place 30x more spikes (still really ♥♥♥♥ ones) isnt fun in the slightest
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Well, there were alot of questions and quite a bit of discussion here. I could have missed some things. I did want to add some more flavor to the xml based posts. Just because they weren't getting enough love, like in your posts, with all the hearts. But that's mostly self-love, because they were your posts. To be fair, someone already XPathed the spikes (the mod, *actually.. the modlet), so you wouldn't have to 'technically' learn how to mod them back in. I'm learning myself, but I think you could do it. If you don't, please disregard my original post.

By the way, I liked the spikes also and preferred them staying put because they were more fun that way.

:tickled_pink:

Thanks for taking the time to respond,

B

 
Do have to disagree with you Wolfy.Just because people use them doesn't mean they are a netpositive for the game.

If there was a gun that you aquired day 1 and was better than any other gun with infinite ammo, everyone would use it. But it would subtract from the overall fun of the game, as looting weapons was no longer part of that.
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Except the club you can make right now on day one does more entity damage than the steel machete you can't even make til level 30, so that's not really a good example.

 
Except the club you can make right now on day one does more entity damage than the steel machete you can't even make til level 30, so that's not really a good example.
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thats a balancing issue. Its not intended to be stronger. Also I think the machete has better mods... but I haven't tested it.

Point still stands.

The club isn't better than pistol, shotty, ak, sniper, smg so yes buff machete idc, dont derail this conversation thanks.

 
If they've removed log spikes from the game, please for the love of god don't bring that clearly stupid decision over to console. We love our log spikes and despise the wood spikes.

 
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