PC let me get this right

[OnlyMeiya]

Perk gating is best for the game to ensure some delayed gratification and continued challenge. If you get the best gear in the game on day 1 or even day 10, then there is no challenge and the game gets boring very quickly. You might as well just start a new character... and wait why bother you got everything on day 1 again. You guys might as well type CM in and get the stuff you think you deserve on day 1. You could turn the difficulty down too, it has the same effect. But that doesn't work against other players in pvp or give you bragging rights in pve.

I would take some insane requirement to build a forge rather than a level gate, that way while Im out grinding levels and scavenging through buildings and hunting animals I may happen across the materials I need to build it, and free up several points so that I can spec into the survival perks instead.

I would prefer a harsher requirement to building forges so that the late game creating and protecting your forges is a stronger need, as in single and multiplayer since players tend to destroy everything in your base, it would teach players to hide and protect them better, and losing those would set them back a while longer than just grabbing some clay.

Also harsher building mats to prevent large production facilities, prior to this I could build concrete and steel factories that cranked out materials so fast that I had to take screenshots and alert server administration of it so they didn't think I was duping.

 

[Kattla]

There is a big difference between grinders and building underground.There will always be those who try optimize the game.

But building underground was super easy and had no negatives.

It removed a big part of the game (horde gameplay and preparation)

What people wanted weren't (necessarily) digging zombies. They wanted air circulation, debuffs for staying underground for too long/not fighting the horde and of course: maggots

We didn't want to ruin your fun. We just didn't want an easy exploit that WE had to avoid to have fun.

Think if you have to climb the mount everest for the bragging rights, but right next to you is a helicopter, transporting people to the top without any effort. "I was on top of mount everest" isn't really a biggie anymore. Or maybe they use hightech to easily climb... or they use some other tools that you do not feel give the full experience.

Or if you buy a LoL account that is already Master. A WoW account on max level. And so on and so forth.

It is not the same as the "easy way out". It is not as rewarding. And its the same for me, when I know that I can simply cheese the horde. I don't need to build elaborate defenses, I can simply dig. And no I do not want to build it for fun. I want to build it to survive! Surviving and the challenge is what makes it fun. I don't want to invent rules to have fun surviving.

It is not about you. It never was. Nearly noone argued AGAINST YOUR FUN! They argued for their own, as this is a SURVIVAL game.

Exploits are not features!

It is a MMO/FPS/SURV/TRADE_SIM/FARM_SIM/CRAFTING/BUILDING/HORROR/TOWER_DEFENSE game. Or, if you like

it better, a game with elements from MMO/FPS/SURV/TRADE_SIM/FARM_SIM/CRAFTING/BUILDING/HORROR/TOWER_DEFENSE. (thank you Poppa).

It is also like colors, you mix them all, you get grey.

However, since it also have elements from tower defense, using zombie pathing to our advantage cannot

be seen as an exploit, but intended construction. And it does not take much construction to make something

that can last through the first horde night. Again, intended, not an exploit pr say.

 

[Kattla]

Lemme see, INT 10 is not level gated. Neither is barter. Max level barter gives access to

best trader items. Quest coins are slightly improved. Perhaps we can survive this after all.

(yes, i know what's coming next.. )

 

[Viktoriusiii]

It is a MMO/FPS/SURV/TRADE_SIM/FARM_SIM/CRAFTING/BUILDING/HORROR/TOWER_DEFENSE game. Or, if you likeit better, a game with elements from MMO/FPS/SURV/TRADE_SIM/FARM_SIM/CRAFTING/BUILDING/HORROR/TOWER_DEFENSE. (thank you Poppa).

It is also like colors, you mix them all, you get grey.

However, since it also have elements from tower defense, using zombie pathing to our advantage cannot

be seen as an exploit, but intended construction. And it does not take much construction to make something

that can last through the first horde night. Again, intended, not an exploit pr say.

I know this sounds weird... but try to see what I mean not how I say it.

This game is called 7days2die. Not 7daysorhoweverlongyouwanttodowhateveryouwant.

The horde is the primary motivator to do anything. And if you like the building/looting part more than that is great for you!

Maybe give an option to disable the horde. But the horde is such an existential part in this game. IT is the motivator for everything you do.

Basebuilding, looting for stuff and weapons, crafting better stuff, harvesting ressources, trading...

Everything is motivated by you trying to survive the horde.

If you can easily avoid it, you lose the biggest motivator of the game.

If you enjoy the rest, that is nice and I'm happy for you. But its not the main part of the game, no matter how many cooks(genres) are listed as a main part.

 

[Kattla]

I know this sounds weird... but try to see what I mean not how I say it.This game is called 7days2die. Not 7daysorhoweverlongyouwanttodowhateveryouwant.

You (you character) die during horde night. I don't.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

What? Even if this were true (I only die when I try not to abuse the AI) what does that have to do with anything?

Yes AI is broken right now... but in A16 I never died on hordenight, because I spent my time preparing well for it (on insane)

So I have no idea what your point is... was it a joke I didn't get?

 

[Kattla]

What? Even if this were true (I only die when I try not to abuse the AI) what does that have to do with anything?
Yes AI is broken right now... but in A16 I never died on hordenight, because I spent my time preparing well for it (on insane)

So I have no idea what your point is... was it a joke I didn't get?

Yes. You point out to me the game name is 7 days to die. Which could mean you think we have

to die every single day to play as intended. Or at least we should die during horde night, which

you did and posted about a week or two ago.

 

[Randomdude]

There is a big difference between grinders and building underground.There will always be those who try optimize the game.

But building underground was super easy and had no negatives.

It removed a big part of the game (horde gameplay and preparation)

What people wanted weren't (necessarily) digging zombies. They wanted air circulation, debuffs for staying underground for too long/not fighting the horde and of course: maggots

We didn't want to ruin your fun. We just didn't want an easy exploit that WE had to avoid to have fun.

Think if you have to climb the mount everest for the bragging rights, but right next to you is a helicopter, transporting people to the top without any effort. "I was on top of mount everest" isn't really a biggie anymore. Or maybe they use hightech to easily climb... or they use some other tools that you do not feel give the full experience.

Or if you buy a LoL account that is already Master. A WoW account on max level. And so on and so forth.

It is not the same as the "easy way out". It is not as rewarding. And its the same for me, when I know that I can simply cheese the horde. I don't need to build elaborate defenses, I can simply dig. And no I do not want to build it for fun. I want to build it to survive! Surviving and the challenge is what makes it fun. I don't want to invent rules to have fun surviving.

It is not about you. It never was. Nearly noone argued AGAINST YOUR FUN! They argued for their own, as this is a SURVIVAL game.

Exploits are not features!

You missed the point completely but it's fine, many people understood and thats what matters.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Yes. You point out to me the game name is 7 days to die. Which could mean you think we haveto die every single day to play as intended. Or at least we should die during horde night, which

you did and posted about a week or two ago.

And you missed the point.

Yes I currently die because I refuse to abuse a broken ai... but wanna know something else? I completely stopped playing because of that. I don't have any fun either dying or abusing the system (or playing a very special kind of defense).

I don't want to die. It is the THREAT of dying. And if you cannot get that I'm done. Wont highjack this thread anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

You missed the point completely but it's fine, many people understood and thats what matters.

lol... (i wrote the same to kattla)

please explain what was the point please. Maybe I really just didnt get it.

 

[Randomdude]

please explain what was the point please. Maybe I really just didnt get it.

Easy, you create a world and people will play by your rules. The truth is, people will ALWAYS find a way to create a "loophole". I'ts not TFP's main job to close every single loophole, just the ones that for them, are game breaking. The rest, if people want to cheat and exploit, let them... wtf do you care what someone else does that doesn't affect you.

Digging zombies is just an example of one "loophole", they spent time solving a non-issue instead of keeping developing the game they want. That happened because people were mad that others were "cheating" the system. The truth... WHO GIVES A ♥♥♥♥?!?! It's their game, if they feel thats the way they wanna play, let it be! Let them be free!

As an example I was watching this dude on Twitch playing 7D2D. They guy has good aim, good sense and understanding of the game and was at day 7. I decided to stay to see how he handled his horde night, maybe learn something.

To my surprise when 22:00 came, the zombies were walking. WALKING! I was like WTF?!?!?

Then I thought to myself... why should I care about this? He's seems to be having fun... has a bunch of viewers... ♥♥♥♥ it! Let it be.

TL;DR: TFP will not win, in any way, spending all their time closing loopholes. That time should be spent on the development of the fun game they want to make specially in an Alpha stage.

(This opinion is based on SP. MP is another subject to which probably there are a bunch of counterpoints.)

 

[EzRemade]

One of the biggest problems with the digging zombies is also the performance loss they cause. Even just one zombie trying to dig causes pretty significant stuttering, I'd absolutely hate to see what a horde digging would be like.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Easy, you create a world and people will play by your rules. The truth is, people will ALWAYS find a way to create a "loophole". I'ts not TFP's main job to close every single loophole, just the ones that for them, are game breaking. The rest, if people want to cheat and exploit, let them... wtf do you care what someone else does that doesn't affect you.

So I did understand. Let me give you the counterpoint then:

If a loophole requires 0 effort (or close to it), is as rewarding (or more rewarding) as doing it the normal way and renderst a big part of the game useless, it is NOT an acceptable loophole.

Example:

build a ramp/funneling, needs only like 50 blocks (wood is often enough, meaning you have it after 3-4 days solo) and you face 0 dangers at hordenight and get as much xp as you can possibly get.

UNACCEPTABLE

(A16) get level 40, learn machete blade smithing, sell 50 (about 20k iron and some clay) for about 14000 dukes

(barely) acceptable! You had to wait till lvl 40 (or even 60 i think), had to use a lot of ressources that you could use for other defenses and "only" got near infinite money from it. You still have to prepare for hordenight, you still can only buy what the trader has, you still have to fight on hordenight, you lose ressources.

There is a HUGE difference between the two. While I would like both exploits to be fixed, digging 10 blocks down and beeing 100% safe is NOT an exploit that should be in the basegame.

Download a mod for it if you like it. (and no this is mostly not a valid argument! but as this is not a feature but a bug, this should be a mod or at least an option in the menu)

Please understand one thing:

the hordenight is important. And if you like to play without it, disable it.

JUST IMAGINE if they removed zombies from the game because there was no creative more and they said "just mod zombies back in if you want".

Would you say "yeah some people dislike zombies, so OBVIOUSLY they should remove them and those that want them can simply add them back in"?

 

[Roland]

Easy, you create a world and people will play by your rules. The truth is, people will ALWAYS find a way to create a "loophole". I'ts not TFP's main job to close every single loophole, just the ones that for them, are game breaking. The rest, if people want to cheat and exploit, let them... wtf do you care what someone else does that doesn't affect you.

Agreed.

Digging zombies is just an example of one "loophole", they spent time solving a non-issue instead of keeping developing the game they want. That happened because people were mad that others were "cheating" the system. The truth... WHO GIVES A ♥♥♥♥?!?! It's their game, if they feel thats the way they wanna play, let it be! Let them be free!

Wrong. You’ve fallen into the misconception that just because something is posted by forum members that the devs are somehow influenced against their wills to do it. Faatal, himself, quipped that the only safe place in the game should be the main menu.

The reason there are digging zombies is because the development team wanted them for their game and not because they were concerned over a forum hot topic. It might be easier to blame some small faction of players who care too much how others play differently than them but it isn’t the truth.

TL;DR: TFP will not win, in any way, spending all their time closing loopholes. That time should be spent on the development of the fun game they want to make specially in an Alpha stage.
(This opinion is based on SP. MP is another subject to which probably there are a bunch of counterpoints.)

I agree with your point but not the example given above. At the same time faatal IS interested in seeing all the tactics to fool the AI not so he can counter each and every instance but so he can make design changes to get them to act more naturally. For example, he saw some exploits showing ways to make zombies fall and run around to just fall again. He brainstormed that maybe in A18 zombies might swipe at blocks as they fall eventually destroying the exploitive pathway that the player set up and allowing them to choose a different one not prepared by the player.

 

[Voqar]

So basically, we now have gated forge and more expensive levels. It was actually easier to level in the Intelect tree in the first experimental.

I preferred the original A17 system. Keeping in mind that any of the A17 variants destroy everything before it and especially the ultra cheese grindfest of A16.

There is no advantage to this changed system.

I screws us over (co-op with 2-3 players) because instead of all of us doing crafting and sharing crafting duties now only 1 does it and ends up gimped for combat (early/mid at least, and we never get too far due to the speed of updates lately and restarting - which we don't mind but it means nobody ever overcomes the initial crafter gimping).

I'd imagine if you're SP you're screwed over even worse. Enjoy your early forge - and being gimped for everything else.

In the original system we could all be balanced and enjoy all of the game, specializing by choice. With the new system and escalating attribute costs forcing specializing we end up either as combat characters or dedicated crafters, thus not getting to fully enjoy all aspects of the game.

It'd balance in the way, way long run, probably after lvl 100+, but it makes the best part of the game, the build up, less fun.

I do not get the love affair with the forge. You do NOT NEED to have a forge on day 1. Or even in week 1. Learn to friggin play and not depend on having OP gear from the moment you start the game. This game is FAR more interesting with a progressive style and a sense of accomplishment from earning your way thru, way more than it does from luck-based or making yourself overpowered super early.

It's also super easy to level, even without anything forge-related. Just play the game. So it doesn't take long to get to forge even in early A17 if you cry less and play more.

 

[leaderdog]

Wrong. You’ve fallen into the misconception that just because something is posted by forum members that the devs are somehow influenced against their wills to do it. Faatal, himself, quipped that the only safe place in the game should be the main menu.

The reason there are digging zombies is because the development team wanted them for their game and not because they were concerned over a forum hot topic. It might be easier to blame some small faction of players who care too much how others play differently than them but it isn’t the truth. .

Interesting, but then these specific horde night zombies have superhuman ability to detect you 50 meters below ground. That's a bit of a stretch for anyone's imagination. If you want to have them stand around until the people come out of their hole, fine, but to just start digging down is a bit much.

above ground, sure, sound could be argued to draw them. Thus the battle begins as the horde shows up.

What's the reasoning for them digging down 50 meters to wreck a player when they should be safe?

I think that's the logic people are having trouble with.

and yes please all you people that get triggered by "realism" "it's a game" blah blah, please leave it alone, I'd like a sensible answer from the moderator and or the devs.

I never made underground bases to hide from the horde, but I don't see why people couldn't if they didn't want to. As other's mentioned, you could have made it more impossible because you would need ventilation to survive, make it so they have more work to do to protect themselves that way. A fire that far underground requires proper ventilation.

 

[Kattla]

He brainstormed that maybe in A18 zombies might swipe at blocks as they fall eventually destroying the exploitive pathway that the player set up and allowing them to choose a different one not prepared by the player.

This already is in place, and have been for the entire experimental.

 

[Hedge]

i feel like the real issue here is lack of content for those at the end game, if people are getting bored once their character has progressed enough, maybe it would be best if there was some end goal for them to work towards that wasnt related to exp, some facility that you need to clear to work on a vacine or some npc settlement to build up and defend the npcs there, something to give the player that has reached endgame something to do

Maybe but nobody can fix someone buying the game and trying to beat it in 2 days. It has been happening since...well forever. Every time a new game is released you see posts in forums talking about beating the game by the time the weekend is over. You see people at the highest levels available in game overnight by "figuring out" how to beat it. In 7 days you see it every time. New release happens and everyone rushes to spam craft, kill zombies or whatever it is to make level 100 on first day. That mindset has permeated this game and now there are so many that think they have to beat the game in 2 days. Then they cry about end content. No developer will ever fix that. Personally I have never played that way in this game or any other. That's just me. I usually try to immerse myself to have fun. Fun is the point of gaming for me. But different strokes for different folks I guess.

Don't get me wrong... I agree about direction and end game to a point. There is a lot they could do towards that goal though still. But you just can't stop people from being themselves. Folks are going to do speed runs no matter what. Especially the ones who literally live on the game.

 

[Kattla]

-- deleted --

 

[Randomdude]

it is NOT an acceptable loophole.

The question I ask is... For whom?

- You and your neighbor play the game.

- Both of you know the loophole.

- YOU can skip the loophole and play the game as YOU know it's supposed to be played.

- Are you mad because HE is using the loophole?

- Is this about bragging rights?

This would be a great point if you're coming from a Multiplayer perspective as it would be unbalanced for 2 players to receive the 7 day horde and one of them just cheesing it. After that, the one who cheesed it just attacks the one that had to spend rounds and base defenses. In this case, yes, they would need to fix this ASAP.

the hordenight is important. And if you like to play without it, disable it. JUST IMAGINE if they removed zombies from the game because there was no creative more and they said "just mod zombies back in if you want".

Would you say "yeah some people dislike zombies, so OBVIOUSLY they should remove them and those that want them can simply add them back in"?

Not once did I say I skipped any horde. Not once.

I don't build anything underground anymore, but when I did it was more aesthetics as I liked the cave view.

Always have my 7 day horde base on the ground as i like the challenge of different builds.

My point has nothing to do with digging.

My point is that the TFP need to focus on what they want to do instead of focusing on people that feel like their neighbor is doing better than them because they're "cheating" and not "playing the game like it's supposed to!".

Remember the Gameshark for the consoles? Remember when people used cheats to play Diablo and be immortal? Have you seen people using Aimbot?

People will ALWAYS find a way. If its in a MP environment, it IS a huge problem and NEEDS to be fixed.

If its in SP, again...

WHO GIVES A ♥♥♥♥!?!?

 

[leaderdog]

The question I ask is... For whom? - You and your neighbor play the game.

- Both of you know the loophole.

- YOU can skip the loophole and play the game as YOU know it's supposed to be played.

- Are you mad because HE is using the loophole?

- Is this about bragging rights?

This would be a great point if you're coming from a Multiplayer perspective as it would be unbalanced for 2 players to receive the 7 day horde and one of them just cheesing it. After that, the one who cheesed it just attacks the one that had to spend rounds and base defenses. In this case, yes, they would need to fix this ASAP.

Not once did I say I skipped any horde. Not once.

I don't build anything underground anymore, but when I did it was more aesthetics as I liked the cave view.

Always have my 7 day horde base on the ground as i like the challenge of different builds.

My point has nothing to do with digging.

My point is that the TFP need to focus on what they want to do instead of focusing on people that feel like their neighbor is doing better than them because they're "cheating" and not "playing the game like it's supposed to!".

Remember the Gameshark for the consoles? Remember when people used cheats to play Diablo and be immortal? Have you seen people using Aimbot?

People will ALWAYS find a way. If its in a MP environment, it IS a huge problem and NEEDS to be fixed.

If its in SP, again...

WHO GIVES A ♥♥♥♥!?!?

agreed.

To add to the MP issue, I haven't played multiplayer, but if you're playing with people you know log off on horde night, you could hide in their base and let the zombies destroy their work rather than yours. Pretty ♥♥♥♥ move and certain they wouldn't like you very much if you did it. but that's the thing about a game like this. Crazy things can happen. And the devs cannot account for everyone's decisions, nor should they. Build the game. Make it fun. If people exploit aspects of it, well they're going to. That's just human nature.