PC let me get this right

Whether I agree or disagree, I'm very encouraged when there are updates week to week with tweaks to the system.

Some games... introduce a newer system and leave it to bake for months before changes, when certain instances are screaming at you for changes.

*points at World of Warcraft/Blizzard*

Numerical data doesn't always equate to enjoyment. A fix based on data to serve the dev's objectives can be disconnected from the higher purpose of enjoyment.

So despite that single thread today where someone some complained plox patch only on a week to week basis, I wish I could slap him across the back of his head.

Keep those patches coming!

On the subject itself, a gated forge doesn't affect my specialization path or choice, so I'm okay with it.

 
Numerical data doesn't always equate to enjoyment. A fix based on data to serve the dev's objectives can be disconnected from the higher purpose of enjoyment.
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But the Steam charts say... the peak of users... WHAT!?

 
So basically, we now have gated forge and more expensive levels. :) It was actually easier to level in the Intelect tree in the first experimental.
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All we got was increased prices across the board. None of this is easier to obtain now. This is hamfisted knee jerk systems design at its finest. Not that they have a systems designer on staff...

 
Only thing I have to say about this:

They also pushed iron tools back...
TFP:

- (A17) we're going to gate the forge so players can't reliably get iron before level 20

- (B221) actually players are getting to 20 really fast...lets slow down levelling to stall off that benchmark level

- (B231) well lets remove level gate so players can get forge early if they want

- (still B231) not THAT early! whoa! we're pushing forge back to INT 5 and making stamina tougher so they have a harder time getting forge early

- (sneaky B231) also, lets sneak in nails and duct tape to the forge recipe! hah! now they need to find a forge, to MAKE a forge (reliably). hilarious!

- (B233) ok ok fine, you can get your forge back at INT 4...but we're adding a new rank of the forge perk to restrict iron tools, and THAT'S still at INT 5...so you can get your forge earlier right? even though making effective use of it is now 1 point FURTHER away...

its so flip-floppy....level gate...double down on level gate...remove level gate...start making the soft gate harder...make the soft gate easier, but make use of it harder...

The worst thing has to be the stealth changes all over..."here's your forge, but we changed the recipe to require something EVERYONE scrapped before and can't be crafted without said forge"....then "here's your forge" *tries to craft iron item* "WHOA THERE DUDE! you can't use the forge like that anymore...yet."
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And people honestly thought it was ME who was petty when I said I didnt like it, because it was obvious that they only want ppl to have the forge later in the game... and there is no reason for it, as there are still forge pois and traders with forges!

Its just a quality of life upgrade, and an important one to the fun of the game as well! And they WILL NOT BEND!!! This is why I'm saying they don't care for the fun of the player... but naaah I'm just ignorant.

 
And they WILL NOT BEND!!! This is why I'm saying they don't care for the fun of the player... but naaah I'm just ignorant.
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As you shout, THEY WILL NOT BEND, meanwhile in other threads others are crying, Stop bending TFP!

There is such a dissonant chorus of voices right now of every individual shouting out their own personal preferences.

They absolutely do care for the fun of the player. It is a brand of fun.

At least nobody complains that TFP doesn't listen. Now they simply rant, "Stop listening to the people who aren't me!"

lol

 
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See? Making up metaphorical dialogues is fun! :)
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Let me try:

Roland: Al, you are an amazing person and everyone should be like you!

Me: Thanks, but everyone should like each other, that would be amazing.

Roland: You are so wise too!

:)

 
Let me try:
Roland: Al, you are an amazing person and everyone should be like you!

Me: Thanks, but everyone should like each other, that would be amazing.

Roland: You are so wise too!

:)
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I remember that convo. Good times.

 
I was against level gating, because it interfered with specialization.

I'm okay with the forge itself being gated. Some of you don't like it. I can't say I've read any reasons why you don't like it?

 
I was against level gating, because it interfered with specialization.
I'm okay with the forge itself being gated. Some of you don't like it. I can't say I've read any reasons why you don't like it?
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That's because the topic of THIS thread is exasperatedly wondering why TFP keeps changing things. The OP did not come out specifically for or against gating the forge. The OP merely posed the question of why TFP seems to continue to experiment with those things that are in the midst of being developed.

If only there was a good label to adequately communicate the current phase of the journey....

 
As you shout, THEY WILL NOT BEND, meanwhile in other threads others are crying, Stop bending TFP! There is such a dissonant chorus of voices right now of every individual shouting out their own personal preferences.

They absolutely do care for the fun of the player. It is a brand of fun.

At least nobody complains that TFP doesn't listen. Now they simply rant, "Stop listening to the people who aren't me!"

lol
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I don't. Not my fault people are stupid :D

There will always be people who believe in the literal interpretation of the bible.

That doesn't make it so. And jsut because people say "stop bending" doesnt mean they should try and enforce their vision on the back on the enjoyment of the player.

You are saying "well someone else said something else, what you said has no merit"

Seriously. I gave reasons why the forge should be available from the start.

Did those who shouted they should stop bending give you reasons why except their own enjoyment? (which is fine, just not an empirical reason)

 
Throughout all of this the concept of starting gimped and progressing to super has been the same. This seems like standard development of concept and experimentation that would go on before the final release. If development is confusing and disorienting and unpleasant then wait for the full release. Not one single person who purchases this game after it releases will go through the process illustrated above and will never have played the game with those different settings. They will just know the one where it finally settled after trial and error and experimentation.
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As you shout, THEY WILL NOT BEND, meanwhile in other threads others are crying, Stop bending TFP! There is such a dissonant chorus of voices right now of every individual shouting out their own personal preferences.

They absolutely do care for the fun of the player. It is a brand of fun.

At least nobody complains that TFP doesn't listen. Now they simply rant, "Stop listening to the people who aren't me!"

lol
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Exactly Roland!

-------------------------

This is experimental.

It's going to change.... and change... and change... and change.... and that's how it goes.

So here we are listening to people complaining that it's changing.

Playing Experimental isn't mandatory.

It's an Opt-In and you accept certain things when you do so.

If you're not comfortable dealing with change, perhaps playing A16 until A17 Stable releases is a better choice.

This is a development stage and things will be tested, usually to the limits of something or beyond to gauge where it should be.

Those testing experimental accept this.

Some of these comments aren't constructive criticism.

They sound [i'm not saying they are but that they come across] like childish tantrums.

Sorry if that offends anyone.

I'm just saying that there needs to be a lot more acceptance and understanding of the development process.

You are taking part in helping to create a game.

That's a honour.

It's also not for everyone.

 
As you shout, THEY WILL NOT BEND, meanwhile in other threads others are crying, Stop bending TFP! There is such a dissonant chorus of voices right now of every individual shouting out their own personal preferences.

They absolutely do care for the fun of the player. It is a brand of fun.

At least nobody complains that TFP doesn't listen. Now they simply rant, "Stop listening to the people who aren't me!"

lol
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Roland, stop pretending you care. It's blatantly obvious you're just here to crush our dreams and give us pinkeye. You don't even have pinkeye yourself, and you're giving it to us!!! Why? That's not the point, it's just well known that you've been doing this all along.

Stop with your reasonable-answer crap too. If we wanted a reasonable answer, we'd have asked a reasonable question! Ah-ha! Where's your vaunted logic and slick silver tongued soliloquies now huh??

Just because you added all that so-called pre-forge content into the game doesn't mean we want to use it!

Stone axes and shovels? Shivs? Blunderbuss, Bows, Wooden clubs, iron clubs, torches, all that stupid padded armor?? Why would I want to play the game with that crap! That's for n00bs! Do I look like Captain Caveman??

I didn't want to spend 30 minutes to level up and get forge technology, and now I have to level up my INT....like...a lot?!? And no, I'm not going hunting for a POI forge. How can I hunt for forges when there are vulture/bear/dog packs out there and I don't have a forge yet?? What? no smartass reply??

Stop picking on us just because we're brave enough to speak out against the voices that try to crush us under their jackboots every time any of us voice our tiniest concerns! We paid for this game too, and are entitled to be heard!!

-Colrom

 
That's because the topic of THIS thread is exasperatedly wondering why TFP keeps changing things. The OP did not come out specifically for or against gating the forge. The OP merely posed the question of why TFP seems to continue to experiment with those things that are in the midst of being developed.
If only there was a good label to adequately communicate the current phase of the journey....
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It is one thing to experiment, and another to jump from mechanic to mechanic, as it has been in regards of crafting. I'm going to ignore the fact that the leveling speed has been nerfed by about 50% in various forms like: 10-20% zombie xp reduction, player damage reduction, higher stamina drain on all actions, nerfing combat perks by 5-10%, etc.

What i would like to know, if anyone can answer, is: what is the behaviour that TFP wants from crafting? You know, like when you define a task when you want to work on something. Let me give you some pointers:

Task description: Crafting unlocks and progression speed

1. We need to have all crafting related items unlock in a progressive manner, to give the feeling of accomplishment to the players.

2. We want to space out major crafting milestones every 10 or so levels.

3. We want certain specific items to be end game only e.g. level 100

4. We want the players to fully experiment going from stone tools to iron tools and steel tools (maybe make steel tools end game?)

5. Assuming X levels per day (defined in the progression curve xls that we drafted based on average killing speed and average zombie XP + increase of XP required per level) we want the player to take Y amount of hours to reach mid game and end game.

Now, the 5 points above would constitute a draft for a design task tied in to the speed of reaching certain crafting milestones. This is how a designer/producer duo should think.

Point me ONE experimental version and i will tell you what points from those 5 are broken and why. And i can do that for each experimental release.

My point? Does TFP even have a logical conclusion to what they want to achieve or are they just trying stuff until they think it's right?

 
Have you checked advanced engineering?

So mining helmet ( since looting didn't favor me or I would assume it was also "adjusted") at the end of day 6 no light for me so i go ok I guess I ll just grind few points for those 2 extra points in science 5 and than make me a helmet...

Slap in the face with, sorry dude you need to be lvl 25 ( now I'm at 18 ) - so just carry on that torch around for Zeds to show you some love :) )

( don't want to raise gamma though ) Not only it requires more points to get there, but now it got added lvl gate of 25 - I wonder about what sort of specialization were they talking about -. dream on progression is much slower than it was with the gates on.

I really went from A17 super excited and loved it with the first builds and than with almost every build I go lower and lower with my mood lol

It feels like there will be no more end game content added or even middle game.. we will just get a super stretched early game? :\

My point? Does TFP even have a logical conclusion to what they want to achieve or are they just trying stuff until they think it's right?
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Sorry to say it but I totally agree with this.

 
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I was against attribute gating because it stops early specialization. So we removed attribute gates and hoped the steeper prices of attributes would keep people out of steel for several weeks, but they teamed up and got INT 10 on day 5 or less. Thats like having Tek gear in ark after 5 hours, when it takes literally 6 months to get tek gear in that game if you play casually for 3 hours a day.

Perk gating is best for the game to ensure some delayed gratification and continued challenge. If you get the best gear in the game on day 1 or even day 10, then there is no challenge and the game gets boring very quickly. You might as well just start a new character... and wait why bother you got everything on day 1 again. You guys might as well type CM in and get the stuff you think you deserve on day 1. You could turn the difficulty down too, it has the same effect. But that doesn't work against other players in pvp or give you bragging rights in pve.

There is still great value in getting an attribute to 10 and specializing early game. We're just blocking you from getting the best tech super early because once progression feels stalled out, any game gets boring. Once I got to level 100 in Ark and got the best stuff and couldn't gain any more levels, I quit. I didn't think I would, but I suddenly lost interest. Same thing happens in Fallout at level 40-50 and in Skyrim. Once you get the best gear and hit god status, the reason to play suddenly vanishes for most players.

We can always add an xp slider for those who can't stand not being god can hit end game in 10% of the time. And those who want a long grind can slow it down easily.

 
Roland, stop pretending you care. It's blatantly obvious you're just here to crush our dreams and give us pinkeye. You don't even have pinkeye yourself, and you're giving it to us!!! Why? That's not the point, it's just well known that you've been doing this all along.
Stop with your reasonable-answer crap too. If we wanted a reasonable answer, we'd have asked a reasonable question! Ah-ha! Where's your vaunted logic and slick silver tongued soliloquies now huh??

Just because you added all that so-called pre-forge content into the game doesn't mean we want to use it!

Stone axes and shovels? Shivs? Blunderbuss, Bows, Wooden clubs, iron clubs, torches, all that stupid padded armor?? Why would I want to play the game with that crap! That's for n00bs! Do I look like Captain Caveman??

I didn't want to spend 30 minutes to level up and get forge technology, and now I have to level up my INT....like...a lot?!? And no, I'm not going hunting for a POI forge. How can I hunt for forges when there are vulture/bear/dog packs out there and I don't have a forge yet?? What? no smartass reply??

Stop picking on us just because we're brave enough to speak out against the voices that try to crush us under their jackboots every time any of us voice our tiniest concerns! We paid for this game too, and are entitled to be heard!!

-Colrom
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Love it! I found 2 truths in there though.

1) stone shovels suck

2) everyone's opinions are entitled to be heard (I guess even Roland's lol)

I'm wondering how long until stable branch though? I may revert the dedicated server back to A16.4 until then because some of the players are really hating that we have to wipe every couple days now. I get both sides of it tbh. Annnnnd, I think I have BM Day 140 ready to go on my SP A16.4 :D

 
I understand and applaud your efforts, madmole. What you also need to take into account is the fact that only 10-15% of the players will display the kind of behavior of blitzing to end game gear as fast as possible. Worst, less then 1-5% of players actually take to the forums and complain actively. So, is it worth changing the system so often for that minority?

I am honestly saying that i actually liked the first experimental with its level gating and 1 point per perk cost. And a reasonable stamina refresh, and not needing to eat every literally 5 minutes of gameplay. Now, it feels like a chore to level and grind materials for a base. Which needs to be some dumb design so i can exploit the godly stack and hit only 1 spot zombie hordes.

 
Love it! I found 2 truths in there though.
1) stone shovels suck

2) everyone's opinions are entitled to be heard (I guess even Roland's lol)
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Uhm, i beg to differ on the stone shovel issue, at least compared to iron shovel.

It would seem it drain less stamina, but might need one or two hits more to remove

a dirt block. It is also slightly faster pr hit.

 
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