Learn By Doing, Perking, or Magazine

Just wanted to get a consensus on what method players like(d) most for advancement: Learn By Doing, Learn By Perking, or Learn By Magazine so that us players, and the Fun Pimps, can see what system is liked and why.

I started the game when Learn By Perking was the way and didn't have experience with Learn By Doing.

Why I The Liked Learn By Perking System
- Players had the freedom to choose their perks based off of what they liked to do.
- Leveling up a Perk unlocked recipes (cooking), plans (forge, workbench,etc) and tools (shovel, hammer, etc).
- Players didn't have to follow a singular path to progress and could progress their character doing the things they liked to do (building, mining, run & gun, etc) and gain the benefits from their Perks along the way.
- If playing multiplayer, players could take on dedicated roles (the builder, the cook, etc).


Why I Dislike Learn By Magazine System
- Players are forced into one singular way of playing/progressing since magazines are needed to gain Perk benefits for cooking, seeds, plans, tools, and now armor.
- Players are at light to heavy mercy of RNG when it comes to magazines appearing in loot, which can artificially stall progress.
- No more dedicated roles in multiplayer since everyone has to progress the same way.

I've never liked the LBM system for the freedom that it took away from players and how it forced them into a traditional hit the trader, get a quest, run & gun, and loot playstyle. Not being restricted to one singular path for progression was one of my favorite things about the game, and one of the things that set it apart from the competition. I've often wondered why TFP took this major step backward. I would love to see the LBP system return, or something like it.
 
A consensus of the few dozen people who use this forum?

We still have the freedom to choose whatever perks we want. Learning recipes via levels was neat, but i also understand that it's weird to have recipes/knowledge magically installed into your brain by just leveling a perk. You can still progress how you want by doing anything, why do you think this isn't possible anymore? Magazines also help with the dedicated roles in multiplayer if players share them accordingly...

Magazines are specifically for crafting, not for "perk benefits," levels still work the same way. It doesn't force you into anything, you choose what perks you want and you're more likely to get magazines for those perks. You're not forced to do anything other than playing the game and looting around like you would with or without the magazine system. The only thing "forced" is the forced argument.

Any game with RNG will have the players be at the mercy of RNG. It's not total RNG as you are more likely to get magazines for your selected perks. Then you include specific loot piles, like medical piles for example, are way more likely to give specific magazine types. If you need tool mags, you go to a tool store, gunstores for weapon mags, medical areas, car areas for vehicle books, etc. RNG exists but you can still be resourceful and make RNG less of a problem.

"No more dedicated roles" This is wholly incorrect. The fact that you can trade specific magazines to eachother so people can focus on whatever build they want makes this argument silly. You dislike the magazine system because you don't understand it, or you're being willfully ignorant about most of it.
 
You're not forced to do anything other than playing the game and looting around like you would with or without the magazine system. The only thing "forced" is the forced argument.
Before the magazine system, I'd loot maybe one POI a week after Day 14. I'd spend my time mining/building, which is what I enjoy doing. So yes, I do feel forced to go looting if I want to progress my gear.

That said, my favorite version of progression was actually from a mod. It was back in A16, so it was LBD, but you'd unlock recipes as you improved your skills in various things (it added more skills, like Blacksmithing, etc.)

The only problem I had with it at all was that you had to have the interface of a workstation open to get the xp when something finished crafting (which is an issue with the base game, not the mod.)
 
i prefer magazines. it makes things a little less strained if you join a world where your friend is super high-leveled(something that happens a lot, of the three-friend group i'm in has someone who plays almost every day, myself who plays at most once a week and someone who plays so randomly that it is not even possible to plan with them they just show or they don't)
 
So I've only been playing since A19, so I have no experience with the old LBD system. However, from what I hear, it was easily exploitable and I think TFP were right to get rid of it (at least in that form).

The Learn by Perking system never made sense to me. Spending points to immediately obtain knowledge at crafting something feels half-assed. It's not a system. It's a band aid. Players still have freedom of choice. I spend points to influence what I find in the world, but I get that there is still chance involved and some players hate chance. For me, things should not always be a guarantee in a survival game. I personally don't play multiplayer, so I can't speak to that aspect. From what's been explained, players can still take on dedicated roles. Does the magazine mechanic make that process different? Yes, but it's still possible from what I understand.

Learn by Reading at least has some basis in realism. If I want to learn how to create something? I read up on it. I want to find better methods to create higher quality items? I read up on it. I will admit the magazine system is flawed in some ways, but I've never felt forced in one direction or another in terms of what I level up in and craft. Again, I still don't see how I wouldn't be able to dedicate myself to a certain role when it comes to multiplayer.

Now, in a perfect world, I think TFP could implement a hybrid system where LBD is brought back, but the progression needs to be capped in some way to not be easily exploitable. Simply crafting over and over again, should only get me so far. One idea that's popped in my head is that the magazine system could be used to learn how to advance in the next tier of items (i.e. from Double Barrel to Pump) but LBD allows me to advance in quality. Maybe magazines could give players a boot in quality if they are not advanced enough to go to the next tier.

Point is, please do not bring back the Learn by Perk system. It was flawed, just as the old LBD was. I like the magazines, but I understand there are flaws with that as well. I think there can be a nice balance found, but I honestly do not expect that to happen in this game. Maybe for the supposed sequel.
 
Before the magazine system, I'd loot maybe one POI a week after Day 14. I'd spend my time mining/building, which is what I enjoy doing. So yes, I do feel forced to go looting if I want to progress my gear.

That said, my favorite version of progression was actually from a mod. It was back in A16, so it was LBD, but you'd unlock recipes as you improved your skills in various things (it added more skills, like Blacksmithing, etc.)

The only problem I had with it at all was that you had to have the interface of a workstation open to get the xp when something finished crafting (which is an issue with the base game, not the mod.)

One POI a week... id be in a coma from boredom. I get that you like building/harvesting, but do you really expect to progress your guns, armor and crafting by hitting rocks and upgrading blocks?

I mean maybe if you were selling all those resources to get gear from a trader, i could understand that. They didn't make hundreds of POI's just so players could fully progress by ignoring all of them. It may have been somewhat possible before, but i wouldn't take anything from older alphas as fully intentional. There was a lot of cheese/exploits/imbalances that allowed a lot of unforseen things to take place.
 
A consensus of the few dozen people who use this forum?

We still have the freedom to choose whatever perks we want. Learning recipes via levels was neat, but i also understand that it's weird to have recipes/knowledge magically installed into your brain by just leveling a perk. You can still progress how you want by doing anything, why do you think this isn't possible anymore? Magazines also help with the dedicated roles in multiplayer if players share them accordingly...

Magazines are specifically for crafting, not for "perk benefits," levels still work the same way. It doesn't force you into anything, you choose what perks you want and you're more likely to get magazines for those perks. You're not forced to do anything other than playing the game and looting around like you would with or without the magazine system. The only thing "forced" is the forced argument.

Any game with RNG will have the players be at the mercy of RNG. It's not total RNG as you are more likely to get magazines for your selected perks. Then you include specific loot piles, like medical piles for example, are way more likely to give specific magazine types. If you need tool mags, you go to a tool store, gunstores for weapon mags, medical areas, car areas for vehicle books, etc. RNG exists but you can still be resourceful and make RNG less of a problem.

"No more dedicated roles" This is wholly incorrect. The fact that you can trade specific magazines to eachother so people can focus on whatever build they want makes this argument silly. You dislike the magazine system because you don't understand it, or you're being willfully ignorant about most of it.
A few dozen is a start and is better than just one person's opinion don't you think?

Yes, we still have the freedom to choose whichever perks we want. But if you want to gain any actual benefit out of the perks that govern cooking, plans, tools, and armor you need the magazines. There's only one way to get those.

You can definitely "progress" how you want by doing anything because that does increase your level, but once again if you want to gain any actual benefit out of the perks that govern cooking, plans, tools, and armor you need the magazines.

What I meant by dedicated roles is that a player can be a builder, miner, etc, and NEVER have to touch the run & gun, trader, quest, looting aspect of the game. You can currently still be dedicated to a role, but it you want to fulfill it, you need those magazines. And yes, players can trade magazines to one another, but it'll be a very slow going process for those players who don't want to go magazine hunting, unless the other players are high level and have a stockpile of magazines they don't need anymore.

I've already stated why I don't like the magazine system. There was no need for you to tell ME why I don't like the magazine system, along with your veiled insults. This is my opinion and opinions are like â– â– â– â– â– â– â– s...everybody's got one. But that doesn't mean you have to BE one when you encounter an opinion different from yours.
 
One POI a week... id be in a coma from boredom. I get that you like building/harvesting, but do you really expect to progress your guns, armor and crafting by hitting rocks and upgrading blocks?

I mean maybe if you were selling all those resources to get gear from a trader, i could understand that. They didn't make hundreds of POI's just so players could fully progress by ignoring all of them. It may have been somewhat possible before, but i wouldn't take anything from older alphas as fully intentional. There was a lot of cheese/exploits/imbalances that allowed a lot of unforseen things to take place.
Well, I find running POIs over and over pretty tedious. They're not difficult, mostly annoying, especially now that they've nerfed the everliving â– â– â– â–  out of stealth. And no, I don't expect to progress my guns/armor by hitting rocks and upgrading blocks. But I expect to learn better how they work when I make use of them on horde night. Not that I care about upgrading weapons and armor, particularly. But I'd rather not be stuck with stone tools.

And if cheese/exploits/imbalance are signs of things not being intentional...I don't think there's anything in the game that you could call intentional, especially the magazine system.
 
A few dozen is a start and is better than just one person's opinion don't you think?

Yes, we still have the freedom to choose whichever perks we want. But if you want to gain any actual benefit out of the perks that govern cooking, plans, tools, and armor you need the magazines. There's only one way to get those.

You can definitely "progress" how you want by doing anything because that does increase your level, but once again if you want to gain any actual benefit out of the perks that govern cooking, plans, tools, and armor you need the magazines.

What I meant by dedicated roles is that a player can be a builder, miner, etc, and NEVER have to touch the run & gun, trader, quest, looting aspect of the game. You can currently still be dedicated to a role, but it you want to fulfill it, you need those magazines. And yes, players can trade magazines to one another, but it'll be a very slow going process for those players who don't want to go magazine hunting.

I've already stated why I don't like the magazine system. There was no need for you to tell ME why I don't like the magazine system, along with your veiled insults. This is my opinion and opinions are like â– â– â– â– â– â– â– s...everybody's got one. But that doesn't mean you have to BE one when you encounter an opinion different from yours.



I never saw learning by level as magically installing the knowledge it into the characters brain. The player ranked the perk up to the next level, here are the benefits.
You get benefits from the perks without the magazines. Weapon perks for example reduce stamina usage for their specific weapon types. Miner 69'r makes your harvesting faster.

You can get magazines from looting, air drops and the trader+quests. I'm sorry that the game is centered around looting hundreds of hand-crafted POI's and not digging for worms. If you play the game in any normal sense, you'll progress and get magazines for your chosen build.

I think it's crazy to expect the devs to appeal to people who ignore 90% of the game to only focus on one thing or another, multiplayer or not. There may be a lot of systems, but they're not so perfect and fleshed out that you could expect to fully enjoy locking yourself into those roles. You would be better off playing a different game that focuses on those aspects to a greater degree. You call it magazine hunting, i call it playing the actual game.

I didn't veil any insults. If i wanted to insult you i would do it directly. You shared why you disliked the magazines based on misconceptions or ignorance, so i chose to bring attention to it. Have your opinions, but understand that your statements about how magazines stop dedicated roles is false. It's the opposite. It doesn't "force" a playstyle anymore than any game would.

You never saw it as magic but that's what it was. I punch a few zombies in the face and now suddenly i can build a robot. You can still rank up and gain additional benefits. Magazines is more creative, sensible, and gives players more incentive to interact with all the game has to offer.
 
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One POI a week... id be in a coma from boredom. I get that you like building/harvesting, but do you really expect to progress your guns, armor and crafting by hitting rocks and upgrading blocks?

I mean maybe if you were selling all those resources to get gear from a trader, i could understand that. They didn't make hundreds of POI's just so players could fully progress by ignoring all of them. It may have been somewhat possible before, but i wouldn't take anything from older alphas as fully intentional. There was a lot of cheese/exploits/imbalances that allowed a lot of unforseen things to take place.
I've always felt like the abundance of different POI's are for those who like the trader, quest, loot, run & gun playstyle. For players going that route, they're going to want variety.

Learn by Reading at least has some basis in realism. If I want to learn how to create something? I read up on it. I want to find better methods to create higher quality items? I read up on it. I will admit the magazine system is flawed in some ways, but I've never felt forced in one direction or another in terms of what I level up in and craft. Again, I still don't see how I wouldn't be able to dedicate myself to a certain role when it comes to multiplayer.
Initially this is why I thought LBM would be a good system until I saw how it was implemented. A player can still go in whichever direction they want when it comes to building their character. Where the forcing is is that there's (currently) only one path to get magazines, .
 
Well, I find running POIs over and over pretty tedious. They're not difficult, mostly annoying, especially now that they've nerfed the everliving â– â– â– â–  out of stealth. And no, I don't expect to progress my guns/armor by hitting rocks and upgrading blocks. But I expect to learn better how they work when I make use of them on horde night. Not that I care about upgrading weapons and armor, particularly. But I'd rather not be stuck with stone tools.

And if cheese/exploits/imbalance are signs of things not being intentional...I don't think there's anything in the game that you could call intentional, especially the magazine system.

So you find going into buildings, looting it out, harvesting whatever resources you can find, checking for secrets, and blasting zombies in the face tedious, okay. They're not difficult, so why are you worried about progress while you're out breaking the 100th rock this week?

How many points did you have in stealth when you were doing it? How much stealth gear did you have equipped? How would hitting zombies with a rock on a stick teach you how to make better weapons? How would holding a gun and pulling the trigger a bunch teach you how to build better guns?


"And if cheese/exploits/imbalance are signs of things not being intentional...I don't think there's anything in the game that you could call intentional, especially the magazine system." It seems like intellectual conversation is over then. Have a good one.
 
How would hitting zombies with a rock on a stick teach you how to make better weapons? How would holding a gun and pulling the trigger a bunch teach you how to build better guns?
How would reading a magazine, let alone 75? How many magazines do you think are focusing on the subtle ways to make spears, and why are you finding them in order from "Crappy stone spears, and how to make them" to "Hey, see those spear bits there in that storage box; here's how you can combine them the besâ– â– â– â– â– â– t"?
 
So you find going into buildings, looting it out, harvesting whatever resources you can find, checking for secrets, and blasting zombies in the face tedious, okay. They're not difficult, so why are you worried about progress while you're out breaking the 100th rock this week?
Yes. There's a rhythm you get into while mining that's kind of zen-like. POIs are just all about recognizing the same spot you're going to find ambush zombies over and over.

How many points did you have in stealth when you were doing it? How much stealth gear did you have equipped? How would hitting zombies with a rock on a stick teach you how to make better weapons? How would holding a gun and pulling the trigger a bunch teach you how to build better guns?
You can't reasonably stealth POIs where wave after wave of zombies spawn. It just doesn't work. It was fun when I could take out all the zombies with stealth, and if I screwed up, I was basically dead. That was tense and exciting. Simply blasting everything with an M60 or Auto Shotgun is dull.

I think theFlu adequately covered how the magazine system doesn't particularly make any sense either.

"And if cheese/exploits/imbalance are signs of things not being intentional...I don't think there's anything in the game that you could call intentional, especially the magazine system." It seems like intellectual conversation is over then. Have a good one.
...You've seen people get a gyrocopter by Day 5, then use a Fergettin' Elixir to have an M60 by Day 7 or 8, right? The magazine system is insanely exploitable. Infinite loop bases. Cheesing loot rooms. Resetting POIs by not finishing a quest, then logging out and back in to reset it again and again. I honestly don't think there's a system in the game that can't be exploited in some way or other.

That's not to say that wasn't the case in the past. Just that there isn't any way to prevent people from being able to exploit things without having systems that are a lot more locked down than would ever make sense to have in a supposedly open world sandbox game.
 
A consensus isn't likely, but you can get opinions from people.

For me, I don't want LBD at all, in any form.

And the old option between LBD and magazines that you call perking was based mostly on randomly finding schematics. Yes, some items were locked by perks or even books, but many were random schematics you had to find.

There are pros and cons to that middle "perking" method. It gave us a variety of differences between games. You might find a schematic early in a game or late in a game and it could change how you played. That was good. On the other hand, you might not find the schematics you really want until the late game and that could be really annoying. For some people, that RNG was a bad thing, while for others, it was a nice variety to their games. In general, I liked it.

As far as magazines, I like them in general. I do miss the variety of finding schematics, but I also like being able to plan things out. That said, I think armor magazines are dropping too slowly in 2.x. They either need a higher drop rate or a lower number required to max then out. We don't need them as high as 1.x, but they should be somewhere in the middle. Other than that, I think magazines are fine.

In the end, I don't mind anything except LBD. But I also don't think TFP should waste time going backwards and should just stick with magazines.
 
You get benefits from the perks without the magazines. Weapon perks for example reduce stamina usage for their specific weapon types. Miner 69'r makes your harvesting faster.
Yes, you do. That's why I was specific in naming what magazines have the most direct impact on.

You can get magazines from looting, air drops and the trader+quests. I'm sorry that the game is centered around looting hundreds of hand-crafted POI's and not digging for worms. If you play the game in any normal sense, you'll progress and get magazines for your chosen build.
Does that not sound like players being directed into a certain direction if they want to progress their character? Nothing is wrong with those who want the run & gun, loot, quest type of atmosphere. That should be there for those who want that. But if players prefer to "dig for worms" instead of "running POI's" they have no way to progress that way.
I think it's crazy to expect the devs to appeal to people who ignore 90% of the game to only focus on one thing or another, multiplayer or not. There may be a lot of systems, but they're not so perfect and fleshed out that you could expect to fully enjoy locking yourself into those roles. You would be better off playing a different game that focuses on those aspects to a greater degree. You call it magazine hunting, i call it playing the actual game.
I think it's crazy to expect that everyone wants to play the same hit the trader, get a quest, run&gun, turn in quest, rinse, lather, repeat cycle. This game was broader than that once before and is continuously being reduced in that aspect.

I didn't veil any insults. If i wanted to insult you i would do it directly. You shared why you disliked the magazines based on misconceptions or ignorance, so i chose to bring attention to it. Have your opinions, but understand that your statements about how magazines stop dedicated roles is false. It's the opposite. It doesn't "force" a playstyle anymore than any game would.
You did veil your insults and you did come at me. Don't deny that. And understand that the "force" I'm talking about is that you must get magazines for certain things. You can only get magazines one way. Yes, you can still have dedicated roles, but like I said, only if the other players in mutliplayer are higher level and stockpiled magazines they aren't using, or players trade them (which is slow going). But at the end of the day...what did you have to DO to get those magazines? You had to go through the established LBM play loop.
You never saw it as magic but that's what it was. I punch a few zombies in the face and now suddenly i can build a robot. You can still rank up and gain additional benefits. Magazines is more creative, sensible, and gives players more incentive to interact with all the game has to offer.
It wasn't magic. You didn't learn by osmosis, you learned by doing something. Magazines only helped that hit the trader, get a quest, run&gun, turn in quest type of playstyle. For those who didn't get down with that kind of playstyle...sucks to be them.
 
I feel like people assume sandbox means equal ways to do everything. That is most certainly not the case. If you want to play ARK with no dinosaurs then your life will be harder. If you want to be a miner and never loot a POI, likewise, your life will be harder.

For the 12 people who like to do nothing but mining, I am sorry but no you can't just mine all day and be the same as someone more well rounded. The fact that you can mine, more or less whenever, is the sandbox part of the game.

Changing game design to accommodate every possible path is just madness.
 
If magazines replaced perks as well then I wouldn't be happy but we have the perk system for player abilities and the magazines for crafting ability. With the magazines simply limited to crafting I don't see them as completely dominating the game. Right now in my current game I have a green double barrel shotgun and I just learned how to craft pump shotguns. I've decided to stick with my double barrel until I get to orange level and then I'll craft the pump. Then I'll probably craft a blue replacement and keep that for a good while.

Right now we don't have to choose between Perks and Reading. We have both. Perks for abilities and reading for crafting and I think it is a good mix.
 
You're right, i guess they should make it so you can dig up magazines. When you chop down a tree you can possibly have a magazine fall out. When you break open a rock you may find a geode containing a magazine. Perhaps when you upgrade blocks a magazine may have a chance to fall out from between the boards.

How about a magazine vending machine on wheels that will show up daily after you make a beacon for it? This way anyone with whatever "playstyle" they want can progress and ignore however much of the game they please.
 
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