PC LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

XP gain is chore when you have lots of ways to get xp? and you can choose however you want?
I think its a chore when LBD forces you into doing something you don't like to do because you have to in order to level in LBD.

Without LBD, I can play the game however I want, and gain experience.
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I never actively levelled a skill in A16. I built my base, collected resources, fought zombies, and passively leveled the appropriate skills. The result was that in the end the skills I never used were not levelled. Didn't have to because I didn't need them.

A17 is all about XP. You always wait for the next level to invest the skillpoint. The XP are constantly displayed on the right lower corner and the progress bar at the bottom. And that makes it a chore.

What you probably meant by "LBD forces you into doing something" were the levelgates in A16. In certain skills you needed certain levels to build a workbench or a chemistry station. But if you didn't level those skills because you didn't build a base or you didn't collect resources, then you couldn't build those stations. This has nothing to do with the LBD system itself. It was an artificial limitation which is also to be found in A17 in the intellect branch.

 
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I never actively levelled a skill in A16. I built my base, collected resources, fought zombies, and passively leveled the appropriate skills. The result was that in the end the skills I never used were not levelled. Didn't have to because I didn't need them.
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For example. in A16, you had to mine mine mine mine mine mine mine to put points in miner 69'er (where real benefit came from, the LBD level ups were worthless)

A17 I can do whatever I want and IF I want to I can still level up miner 69er/mother load.

I'm not a miner.. My co-o partner is.. so I don't want to do it a lot to level up the skill since he does most mining. But I like to have the skill for when I do mine, in case we are low on something.

Therefore A16 was a chore for me to level up mining... A17 is not.

 
For example. in A16, you had to mine mine mine mine mine mine mine to put points in miner 69'er (where real benefit came from, the LBD level ups were worthless)
A17 I can do whatever I want and IF I want to I can still level up miner 69er/mother load.

I'm not a miner.. My co-o partner is.. so I don't want to do it a lot to level up the skill since he does most mining. But I like to have the skill for when I do mine, in case we are low on something.

Therefore A16 was a chore for me to level up mining... A17 is not.
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I want to be a masterwork woodcutter.

But I dont want to cut wood. I just want to play computergames.

But JUST IN CASE I ever want to cut wood, I wanna have it!

This is entitled. Which in itself is not always bad. But as you said, your friend is a woodcutter. So ask him to do it.

It has no benefits. It means everyone can be everything at any time, negating most of the teamwork and complex descicion making.

I felt great knowing that my 50 days of pure meleeing meant that I was an unstoppable melee killing machine.

Nowadays I just do whatever I want and once I hit the magic level 50 mark I can finally craft X or finally get 5% more damage.

YAAY rewarding -_-

I'm sorry but just because you want to be able to do anything, doesnt mean that the (BASE)game should offer that.

I feel this is especially missed the point of the whole rework system. It was reworked (allegedly) to further teamwork and cooperation, as well as specialization.

Like... everything they tried to do with this new system, they failed at.

Even with Rolands mod (which removes levelgates and stupid xp farming) it still isnt the same.

Yes it fixes the most obvious problems, but it completely removes action incentives by deleting xp.

Which is still a worse system than lbd, but at least better than normal A17.

It is just so saddening to see how this game went from excellence to... well... A17.

And how the devs show absolutely no remorse.

May I remind everyone that steamreviews went from 88% (late A16 less because it was 1 1/2 years in the works and ppl were tired of waiting) to a stable 55-60%?

I mean... I already prophecised this when experimental hit. But I was just a naysayer. A troll who just wants to hate the game.

All the hate will go away. It was just because its a new version.

Never mind the GLARING faults the game got (31% was the lowest when it was released full of bugs and unstable), the parts I critizised are still in A17.4 . Namely the completely scrambled progression. It doesnt feel like I'm getting better while doing something. It feels like a MMORPG where I level up to get stronger, every action focused on getting stronger.

I mean honestly. 25-30% worse ratings SHOULD make the devs feel bad. But they didnt even see anything wrong with 55%. So why do I still keep my hopes up.

I mean A18 will not have more content (nothing that matters anyways). Yes it will bring the books which might make it a bit better... but nothing new to electronics, no lockpicking, no bandits (cman who really thinks theyll get done now :D ), no npcs no nothing.

Like yeah still alpha. But I'm honestly tired of waiting another 4 years just to get modsupport and maybe bandits.

(Also in A16 you could max mining as well without ever hitting a stone, if you already forgot! A16 was a hybrid.)

 
I want to be a masterwork woodcutter.But I dont want to cut wood. I just want to play computergames.

But JUST IN CASE I ever want to cut wood, I wanna have it!

This is entitled. Which in itself is not always bad. But as you said, your friend is a woodcutter. So ask him to do it.

It has no benefits. It means everyone can be everything at any time, negating most of the teamwork and complex descicion making.

I felt great knowing that my 50 days of pure meleeing meant that I was an unstoppable melee killing machine.

Nowadays I just do whatever I want and once I hit the magic level 50 mark I can finally craft X or finally get 5% more damage.

YAAY rewarding -_-

I'm sorry but just because you want to be able to do anything, doesnt mean that the (BASE)game should offer that.

I feel this is especially missed the point of the whole rework system. It was reworked (allegedly) to further teamwork and cooperation, as well as specialization.

Like... everything they tried to do with this new system, they failed at.

Even with Rolands mod (which removes levelgates and stupid xp farming) it still isnt the same.

Yes it fixes the most obvious problems, but it completely removes action incentives by deleting xp.

Which is still a worse system than lbd, but at least better than normal A17.
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I agree. This is one of the reasons why I am against anything that allows a redistribution of perk points. It removes some replayability of the game as well. If you messed up or want to specialize in something else, start another game. Otherwise, do your best with the choices you have made. If you could just redistribute, there are no real consequences.

In terms of an LBD system, the best part of it is earning your specialization and knowing that not everyone can do what you do. I am hoping the A18 system will bring some of those qualities even without LBD... but we'll see how satisfying it is.

Throughout this thread I have argued for a hybrid system where perk points are perk points and LBD is LBD without an interchange of points between the two. An example would be, buy a perk with perk points to make head shots more deadly. Perform more headshots (LBD) for an additional small bonus. A person who buys the perks will be pretty effective with head shots. A person who doesn't buy the perks but practices and pulls off head shots eventually becomes effective with it due to the LBD bonus.

The person who bought the perks AND practiced LBD is rewarded with the expertise to pull off the deadliest of head shots and surpasses both.

Just one example of using both systems together in a way that makes sense and can't be cheesed for unfair advantages.

 
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May I remind everyone that steamreviews went from 88% (late A16 less because it was 1 1/2 years in the works and ppl were tired of waiting) to a stable 55-60%?
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You don't have to remind anyone about the reviews. The fact that in your head you attribute it to missing LBD is ridiculous. Most people including me complain about performance and random gen -- which both SUCK compared to A16 -- read the reviews and you will see the vast majority complain about those two things, NOT missing LBD, lol. Many people complained about stamina and how hard the game was, again nothing to do with LBD.

I am looking forward to the new A18 perks tho. A17 perks have issues for sure, but lack of LBD is not one of them. A perk should be a bonus not a necessity. For example, getting a vehicle should not require a perk - You should have to find rare parts.

 
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(Also in A16 you could max mining as well without ever hitting a stone, if you already forgot! A16 was a hybrid.)
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LOL!

Everyone who put 100 earned skill points into mining please raise you hand!

 
You don't have to remind anyone about the reviews.
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What was ridiculous (but natural) was the amount of reviews which complained about the game being a "zombie grind", "mmorpg", "fps shooter" etc. Because the perk system allowed them to "level how they want", which really means to use the most efficient method to level everything and get burned by it. And anyone who doesn't know any better will blame this on players.

I think its a chore when LBD forces you into doing something you don't like to do
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This means squat. Survival/building etc needs really "force" you into doing a variety of activities, which I don't believe is bad at all - quite the opposite. The perk system just allows you to master these activities before you start doing them, so that you can do them more easily/less and circumvent individual activity progression by, naturally and most likely, grinding a single activity.

Without LBD, I can play the game however I want
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The game should be treated as a holistic experience, not like a "choose an activity you like to grind" menu. If you don't enjoy some activities to the point that you would like to be done with them fast, or have them net you better results right away from the point you start doing them, then the problem may lie with those activities, rather than with the game "forcing" you into them.

 
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LOL!
Everyone who put 100 earned skill points into mining please raise you hand!
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Anyone who ever became a master blacksmith without ever holding a hammer, please raise your hand!

Yeah it was unpractical, but you also didnt need 100 points in it if you just wanted to mine 5 stones! Auger and Steelpick were only I think 50% more efficient with 100. The rest came from miner69er.

So yeah. You could still be more than efficient enough without ever raising your pickaxe.

 
Yeah it was unpractical,
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Unpractial...lol...It was incredibly stupid to waste skill points on stuff u would get by ginding.

In a debate its fun to pretend A16 was a hybrid system. Hell I could use it against you by saying - According to your logic in A16 I could become a melee killing machine (a phrase you used earlier) without ever meleeing, so why the hate on doing that in A17?

In reality tho everyone who knows how to play well wouldnt play like that in A16, wasting skill points like that. While on paper it can be argued as a hybrid system, in realty it was learn by grinding. The difference in A17 is can grind whatever i find most fun at the moment.

 
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What I'm getting from this thread is that in order for LBD to be balanced:

If you want to level up a specific skill, it's more efficient to grind for general xp than it is to grind the task required. That way, if you mine a lot you'll be good at mining, but people who aren't interested in mining but still want the skill won't feel obligated to mine in order to level it up.

 
You don't have to remind anyone about the reviews. The fact that in your head you attribute it to missing LBD is ridiculous. Most people including me complain about performance and random gen
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Rated by "most helpfull" (meaning most people agreed with them)

should I continue? Between all of these reviews there was one complaining about performance and one complaining about Fun Pimps beeing greedy bastards because they ignore fans wishes and instead sell shirts.

Everything else looked similar to this:

Long time player here. Purchased nearly a dozen copies of the game for numerous friends and family. A year or two ago I would have had great things to say about this game and the direction. Now, however, the story changes.

It's the new alpha, alpha 17. They changed nearly every aspect of the game. That's okay, things change. The majority of the playerbase overwhelmingly complained on the forums. That's okay, customers complain.

The problem is if you look at the forums right now. The main guy, Madmole, honestly admits that he doesn't play the game, but changes things he doesn't like about it. He admits in videos how much he's forgotten about the game even though he allegedly is the primary programmer. He then proceeds to have his forum moderators censor dissent and complaints hardcore and tells them that he doesn't care about their opinions.

The game used to be great. The game is still "okay" even though so much has changed. Again, change is fine. But saying "I don't like aspect x, and even though I don't play the game, and eighty five percent of the comments on the forum approve of aspect x, I don't like it, or didn't when I played a year ago, so I'm taking it out" is not okay at all.

Really liked this game until the last update. I've started over many times with friends, and now it seems like a chore. The new leveling system took the fun out of the game.

I have over 700 hours on this game. I loved it. Played from the very beginning. When there was almost no elevation change and very little anything. Then A15 came out. Friggin amazing. This is when a majority of my hours with friends were spent. Building, surviving, trying things out. Sure you hit some dull spots but it was fun. A16 came out and added some cool features. Played more. Then the next one came out, A17. Cool buildings and modeling added but I stop there. Laggy frame rates, one little cabin middle of nowhere, 27 zombies. I gained a friggin ton of levels. But I found, that is basically what it turned into. A grind fest. On top of that, the immense huge world, scalewise, went from giant mountains and forests and terrains that gave you a sense of being in a world to...the scale of the original game. Back like single digit Alpha. I have played maybe 4 hours since A17 came out. I refuse to play this garbage. I am pretty close to uninstalling this. Go back to 16 and add features that are in 17.

I am not enjoying A17 at all.

Almost every building you go into contains a zombie ambush, making them predictable, silly, and immersion-breaking. And I'm not talking about zombies that happen to be in rooms. I mean they are literally waiting in closets, walls, and ceilings for you to show up and trigger them. Why are they there?

They decided to make zombies intelligent so they now path around traps and obstacles. Why? Zombies already have a massive numbers advantage, and during a blood moon, they also have a speed advantage. Did we get new tools to deal with the greater threat? No. Instead, they actually removed some the better options we had (e.g. no more turning zombies into crawlers using spikes).

I vastly preferred the old leveling system where you got better at the skills you used by actually using them. Now, you grind out zombie kills to gain levels to earn skill points to buy feats.

I don't know if it's worse than before, but I'm also experiencing serious hit detection problems with melee weapons and tools.


Yea, I gotta say after putting many hours into this game...that A17 is not the direction this game should have taken. After playing a lot of A16, it just feels like there are zero rewards for doing anything. The level up system of A16 where you earned a bit of xp every time you worked at a task was, I believe, what kept most of us grinding away at the game. Now it just feels like you get nothing in return. Sure there are perks, which are unique in their own way, but they don't account for the progress and achievement of earning rank ups over time. And don't even get me started about the limited inventory space...in a game where you were already limited pretty severely until minibikes.

All in all, I'd say if you were to play on A16.4 and run mods...you'd probably enjoy the game. However, I unfortunately cannot endorse A17. I highly doubt they'll revert any changes since it was a pretty big change in general. Another Early Access game down the drains it seems.


I bought this game 4 years ago. Since then it's received countless updates and is still regularly updated to this day.

The game *somehow* is even less enjoyable gameplay wise now than it was 4 years ago. Surviving has now become a zombie grindfest.

Aside from gameplay it is graphically and technically awful. I have a Ryzen 7 1700x and a 1070ti and on medium settings at 1080p this game runs like sh*t (stuttering and constant frame jumps).
 
Unpractial...lol...It was incredibly stupid to waste skill points on stuff u would get by ginding.
In a debate its fun to pretend A16 was a hybrid system. Hell I could use it against you by saying - According to your logic in A16 I could become a melee killing machine (a phrase you used earlier) without ever meleeing, so why the hate on doing that in A17?

In reality tho everyone who knows how to play well wouldnt play like that in A16, wasting skill points like that. While on paper it can be argued as a hybrid system, in realty it was learn by grinding. The difference in A17 is can grind whatever i find most fun at the moment.
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In A16 you never needed to "grind". Only to get the chemstation and steel. So if you were grinding back then I am sorry but singleplayer games are not meant to be grindfests and your opinion is nonrelevant, since you clearly enjoy the grind. Grinding is for MMOs, maybe for large multiplayer games like Ark. But they said time and time again, they want it to be coop max.

So yeah. The fact that you could doesnt mean that you should... but the fact that you want mining to be high without ever having mined a single stone doesnt mean that you should be max level.

 
Concerning LBD i have one important matter to attend to.

In RL people tend to be good at some things and bad at some. In many RPGs this is visible through their basic stats, which rarely (if ever) do change. 7DTD currently allows enhancement of "basic stats" or you could say don't have them, but some perks you increase. This is clearly visible as there are IRL people who:

- are good at math (and can easily learn various things in it and solve problems)

- are good with written and spoken word (learn languages fast, are able to use it casually with less effort)

- are good with music (can recognize single sounds fast, learn music queues better)

- are good with spacial awareness (are good with driving a car, can visualize various surroundings for lets say rearranging furniture, etc.)

- etc.

This means that some people will need a couple weeks to master an activity, whether some will need months or years. LBD states that everyone has to put the same effort to master an activity and that is astray from reality.

 
This means that some people will need a couple weeks to master an activity, whether some will need months or years. LBD states that everyone has to put the same effort to master an activity and that is astray from reality.
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Reality has very little to do with gaming though. Whether the system is LBD, Perks or something else entirely, the first mod I'd ever make for it, if needed, was to amend it to permit my character to become not a jack of all trades, but a master of them. Not instantly of course, and (in the event of an LBD system), maybe not ever for those skills I never use, but I definitely don't want a character "class" as such.

 
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Hey, i wouldn't mind basic stats in a manner of Fallout or something... INT gives you more XP or skill points, STR lets you carry more, AGI dishes out more damage from guns, LCK lets you find better stuff, VIT raises your HP, END raises your damage resistance/stamina, etc. Now make a character that fancies your gameplay...

Not that it could be implemented in vanilla... maybe a mod... hmmm...

 
What I'd like to see more in the game is the attention to Building, Design and Fixing and less on combat. Id like to see more building/farming Ideas like more designs on crops.

Switch around the UI a bit, its a little old. Give players the opportunity To enable/disable the Food and Water bars.

Give people more opportunity on choice of lights, Ive noticed you've cut that part out. Id appreciate it if you brought that back! ;)

Change the Zombie noises or add more? Perhaps for specific zombies.

Add more Zomnbie designs, The old ones are heavily overused for the sheer amount of zombies you intend on putting in

 
Ok 1 billion Skyrim and Fallout customers would disagree with you. There are highly successful youtube channels like Fudgemuppet, where all he does is talk about specific builds, made from perk choices to fit a certain play style and a bit of backstory for character ideas. But the crux of it is the perk choices and interesting strengths and weaknesses of that particular build. It allows the game to have more replay value and get good at what you want without gear or the random number generators dictating your progression as much.
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So would you rather listen to the skyrim and fallout costumers than 7daystodie costumers? Knowing that almost all of your community prefer LBD.

 
I don't think those examples are the reason LBD was removed. I believe the reason it was removed was that LBD limits the player to one activity in order to improve the skill related to that activity. Want to improve mining? You can only do that by mining. Want to improve your skill with clubs? You can only do that by using clubs. Yes, you could spend points on those skills too but that was universally looked down upon as a colossal waste of those points. I saw posts back in the day where people were chided in a "get gud" way when they admitted to spending points on skills that could have been improved by repetitive action instead.
Does this make logical and immersive sense? Yes. But it is also very limiting and undesirable for those who would rather do other things but then when they have to finally mine be able to do so at a higher level. With a common pool of xp you can do anything you want to improve anything else whether they are directly related to each other or not thematically.

Madmole's examples are simply his way of emphasizing the limiting factor of LBD compared to the freedom of common pool experience.

The hate we see comes not from any inherent better design of one over the other. They both have their pros and cons. The hate comes from players' ability or inability to excuse gamey mechanics that feel less immersive to them. I'm fine with either system, myself, but I do like the current system quite a lot. I don't have any immersion hangups with it and see skillpoints as a pool of currency representing my overall experience as a survivor so I can apply them wherever I want regardless of the activities I performed to earn them.

I also find it fun to plan out a build and then spend my points how I wish to achieve that build. I see the spending of points not so much the result of what I have done but more of how I want to focus my development going forward. Of course, I like boardgames quite a bit and allocating points for advantages feels very boardgamey to me so I don't mind it and feel it is a lot of fun.

LBD: More limiting but more immersive

Common Pool: More freedom but more gamey

Now, I also really believe that experience points in any form in a game like this are like an addictive pill that steals the soul of the game and creates all sorts of weird player incentives and playstyles that work contrary to the player focusing on survival tasks and playing the game as if they were actually in a zombie apocalypse. In this regard LBD is like mainlining that drug instead of taking it in pill form.
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Why just put both back in the system, and give the player the choice in wether to enable or disable the system? It would avoid the discussion of LBD. I loved alpha 16 and below becuase that move motivated me to build, design and craft, rather than grind for stuff

 
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