PC LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

Common xp pool for me is better because I have the peculiarity of not caring whether one activity or another is the most efficient activity of rapidly gaining xp. I do hate the xp harvest icon in the corner and the xp bar above the toolbelt. It would be better without those things so I'm not being constantly reminded of the xp I'm gaining from every activity. I like common pool because I can do anything and spend my points in anything and there is not any repetitive activity that I must do to increase a particular stat. In my mind, I see the spending of points as areas I plan to grow in rather than areas that grew in resulting from any particular activity and since I tend to do a variety of activities since I don't care about the one most effective for xp gain, my points feel like they are a result of generally surviving and getting more capable in the world.
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This is why I would prefer a Hybrid system where what you gain in XP for skill points is separated from what you gain with LBD. The points should not be interchangeable. You use points for large perk changes and the LBD just provides a small percentage improvement in the areas your gameplay has focused in. It shouldn't be something you pay attention to all the time, and while not very significant, enough to distinguish a person as a master in something over another person. I don't like that players in a competitive sense are on equal playing grounds just because they invested the same 4 points. PVP becomes a matter of who happens to get that random perk bonus first. The new books will help in this area for me... only because there are so many of them that the likelihood of two people facing off with the exact same skills is small. However, again, it all depends on luck. Instead of the luck of random perk bonus, it is the luck of who finds something. I prefer skill over luck in gaming. This system in general is not cutting it.

 
Please, enough with this argument.It's not because it's a possibility that everybody does it.

Just like cheesing the AI in A17.
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In A17, the new min/maxer method is spawning one screamer horde after another by lighting 20 campfires and raising the heat in the area. You will never be able to prevent some players from using methods to artificially speed up their game progress.

 
That's an extremely interesting point (to me), because I can't quickly/easily provide the answer. It's been my experience that LBD maxing is more addictive than experience grinding (even when that experience is earning points which are "spent" on skills which would seem on the surface ultimately the same as LBD).
If I consider my experience with the Bethesda Elder Scrolls (Morrowwind, Oblivion, Skyrim) I think of how LBD all but ruined the RPG leveling feel. The convoluted way they tied skills with stats was counter-intuitive once you passed the mid-point of leveling. Don't get me wrong, it's great at first, but leads to some LEGENDARY-long spam skilling sessions that have little to do with gameplay.

Another LBD game is Wasteland 2. I remember starting and loving that game, only to restart a couple more times and quit. It's my own fault of course...my mental need to max things and the MANY skill checks against your skills dragged you far away from the gameplay and heaven-forbid, story of the game.

It's got to be a purely psychological thing, but the generic "XPs" and levels we gain in most games still gate our abilities, but since in 7D2D for example I can gain XP in many ways and then apply it to certain skills/stats, it's more generic and thus (I think) I am less driven and focused about any given "merit badge". I find myself breaking rock until I'm sick of it, then I kill zombies until that tires me then maybe I go do a quest. Previously I'd be making bandages and wouldn't stop until I finally got that point of Science after an hour.

Given the choice of making bandages, or choosing a variety of other activities which are much more associated with actual gameplay, I choose the flexible generic option.

I WILL say that I'm open to a hybrid system, but it would need to discourage pure LBD play. Diminishing returns on LBD in a given day seems the best option AND that MUST be for ALL LBD...otherwise after I'm done spam-crafting stone axes, I'll just move on to jumping a lot and then making bandages; cycling through all the skills until another day has past. I.e. once you've reached the maximum that you can gain from LBD in a day from any and all skills combined, you're done.

-Morloc
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This is a good description and makes me incongruously think of Harvest Moon or Stardew Valley. LBD with all the different skills is very similar to creating your farms of different crops that you tend to daily. Very addictive and fun. However, I want 7 Days to Die to be about surviving in the world and not about tending crops of skill bars. This is my biggest gripe-- not that it isn't an addictive mechanic but that it is too addictive and changes the nature of the game (speaking of myself and what I believe the game to be about of course)

 
This is why I would prefer a Hybrid system where what you gain in XP for skill points is separated from what you gain with LBD. The points should not be interchangeable. You use points for large perk changes and the LBD just provides a small percentage improvement in the areas your gameplay has focused in. It shouldn't be something you pay attention to all the time, and while not very significant, enough to distinguish a person as a master in something over another person. I don't like that players in a competitive sense are on equal playing grounds just because they invested the same 4 points. PVP becomes a matter of who happens to get that random perk bonus first. The new books will help in this area for me... only because there are so many of them that the likelihood of two people facing off with the exact same skills is small. However, again, it all depends on luck. Instead of the luck of random perk bonus, it is the luck of who finds something. I prefer skill over luck in gaming. This system in general is not cutting it.
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I see your point and raise you the idea that nothing will cut it as long as the game has experience points at all ;)

 
I honestly just want the code hooked back into the progression system.

It's partially there. I can see it in the DLL, I just can't properly access it with XML. If TFP don't want it in the VANILLA game? Fine. I still believe it's a bad decision to work on a system for 3-ish alpha's and then scrap it, but whatever. Not my decision.

However it would be nice to hook it back into the CURRENT progression system so us modders can mess about with it and not break servers... because that's exactly what happened when I messed around with it using cvars. It really, really broke servers.

 
LOL remember the days back in a13 or a14 when he said a15 would probably be the last Alpha. :) I'm certainly glad they didn't stop there.
IMHO, LBD is only for min/maxers and does not contribute to solid gameplay mechanics. Firing 2-3 thousand arrows just to raise the skill one point was stupid.
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Lol I remember :) I'm glad they are still working

 
I see your point and raise you the idea that nothing will cut it as long as the game has experience points at all ;)
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Yes, I agree and I'd go further to say that I think that XP wasn't a good idea for this game just personally.

 
i gotta speak up here cause i hate seein someone picked on when they dont deserve it. Roland might twist the sword in us when were salty now and then but you gotta admit...he tries very hard to see the arguement from both sides and lets us b*tch alot more than he should sometimes. I may not always agree with him (almost never) but hes pretty good to us and accepts criticism and apologizes if he steps on our toes. You do a good job Roland and yur a great asset to the pimps and this forum so you keep doin you.

 
That's an extremely interesting point (to me), because I can't quickly/easily provide the answer. It's been my experience that LBD maxing is more addictive than experience grinding (even when that experience is earning points which are "spent" on skills which would seem on the surface ultimately the same as LBD).
If I consider my experience with the Bethesda Elder Scrolls (Morrowwind, Oblivion, Skyrim) I think of how LBD all but ruined the RPG leveling feel. The convoluted way they tied skills with stats was counter-intuitive once you passed the mid-point of leveling. Don't get me wrong, it's great at first, but leads to some LEGENDARY-long spam skilling sessions that have little to do with gameplay.

Another LBD game is Wasteland 2. I remember starting and loving that game, only to restart a couple more times and quit. It's my own fault of course...my mental need to max things and the MANY skill checks against your skills dragged you far away from the gameplay and heaven-forbid, story of the game.

It's got to be a purely psychological thing, but the generic "XPs" and levels we gain in most games still gate our abilities, but since in 7D2D for example I can gain XP in many ways and then apply it to certain skills/stats, it's more generic and thus (I think) I am less driven and focused about any given "merit badge". I find myself breaking rock until I'm sick of it, then I kill zombies until that tires me then maybe I go do a quest. Previously I'd be making bandages and wouldn't stop until I finally got that point of Science after an hour.

Given the choice of making bandages, or choosing a variety of other activities which are much more associated with actual gameplay, I choose the flexible generic option.

I WILL say that I'm open to a hybrid system, but it would need to discourage pure LBD play. Diminishing returns on LBD in a given day seems the best option AND that MUST be for ALL LBD...otherwise after I'm done spam-crafting stone axes, I'll just move on to jumping a lot and then making bandages; cycling through all the skills until another day has past. I.e. once you've reached the maximum that you can gain from LBD in a day from any and all skills combined, you're done.

-Morloc
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LBD does not necessarily = spam crafting and the armor "skill", which arguably should not even be a skill could easily be altered to stop cactus hugging or other exploits.

In particular with no level gates, there is no need to grind anything at all, but if someone does want to waste resources on target practice, who are we to force a cap on their efforts? Let them waste bullets if that is what they find fun to do.

I personally prefer some kind of hybrid like A16.4. You learn the base LBD, but then you have perks you can buy for big boosts and bonuses.

Really the difference is the perks are gated by skill instead of spending points on Intelligence or Strength etc.

 
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Madmole disagrees. Sales are up and bad reviews are butt-hurt veterans.
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Well he did invite us to dive into the recent bad reviews and see for ourselves. Should be easy to check if he's right or delusional about the subject matter of the bad reviews. Without looking I'm willing to bet the lionshare is poor performance/visuals and horrible RWG.

 
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it's not comin back Grue...regardless of how you argue it...and you arent wrong....it isnt the vision MM has for the game. He doesnt want that....the new system isnt done yet...it will be refined and tweaked and i expect that in time it will improve so we need to just enjoy or not enjoy the ride till it gets there. its what we signed up for when we purchased an early access game

damn the pimps for making a game that we love so much

 
Madmole disagrees. Sales are up and bad reviews are butt-hurt veterans.
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Well, I think that mis-characterises both veterans with thousands of hours played (including me), and (saltily) mis-characterises Madmoles attitude to them.

They're not making "OzHawkeye's 7 Days To Die" any more than they're making "AtomicUs5000's 7 Days To Die", they're making "The Fun Pimps 7 Days To Die" after all.

XP was an obvious system to introduce, but, in just my own personal opinion, one that came with some pretty nasty consequences for the loot hunt and game progression especially. That said, there couldn't be a deader horse than this one for sure.

 
Well he did invite us to dive into the recent bad reviews and see for ourselves. Should be easy to check if he's right or delusional about the subject matter of the bad reviews.
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I've read them here and there throughout the alpha. There are definitely quite a few that are clearly that. In my opinion, this doesn't necessarily make them invalid though. Some are obviously just pure anger. Some have valid points to make. I don't know... the typical mix of bad reviews anyone might expect when viewing a bunch of bad reviews. Nothing special. Nothing we haven't already heard in here.

 
I did not read the post in this thread, so disregard my post if that offends you. I don't really have a dog in the race since both types of skill increasing seem fine to me. As an example, I am not a real big combat player, but you can't avoid it altogether in 7D2D. The current system lets me still get xp for killing and use those perk points to level up in the things I actually like doing (crafting).

I have seen the argument that LBD is more realistic, I would have to disagree. I have been using a PC for the better part of 35 years. I can't type worth dog poo. Remove the letters from the keyboard and I can likely find "a" "s" and maybe "w" "e". And I have been "typing" for a living most of those 35 years. I don't have the knack for anything other than hunt and peck when trying to type. No amount of practice (LBD) has increased my skill at performing this task. You can put "bike riding", "Roller skating", "speaking language other than English", "spelling" and about 30 other things that people might get better at with practice onto my "not ever going to get any better at performing this"

Just because you have to chop wood ALOT to do anything early in the game doesn't mean you want your character to excel in wood cutting. Yeah, maybe not realistic but this is a fantasy game as well.

 
I've read them here and there throughout the alpha. There are definitely quite a few that are clearly that. In my opinion, this doesn't necessarily make them invalid though. Some are obviously just pure anger. Some have valid points to make. I don't know... the typical mix of bad reviews anyone might expect when viewing a bunch of bad reviews. Nothing special. Nothing we haven't already heard in here.
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Having played many online games over the years, I have learned to sift thru "bad reviews" with a grain of salt. If you go to any games forum you are going to see a bunch of "you can't win unless you pay" or other similar whiney crap posts from people that are pissed off that some things are reserved for paying players. I look for people that are making valid constructive comments about the game or the gameplay. Unable to connect to servers because of too many users, clusters of IDENTICAL game crash reports or game breaking bug reports are things that give me pause. I guess I am saying "consider the source"

 
Just because you have to chop wood ALOT to do anything early in the game doesn't mean you want your character to excel in wood cutting.
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It makes me wonder what a game would be like if it had something like... you improve in that as you do it, but then it fades with non-usage. Would it make it at all interesting? I have no idea... never played a game like that. It would solve the grind issue when you know it's only temporary. For those in team MP, this could be the start of a specialization idea. If you are the wood cutter, you will indeed be the best at it because you would be the only one actually maintaining the skill at its peak. For all other players who do not cut wood as much as the wood cutter, they lose what they gain eventually.

Of course this does nothing for bringing the fun of buying perks. But no worry, you could still do that and they would be permanent and unaffected by time/non-usage.

 
It makes me wonder what a game would be like if it had something like... you improve in that as you do it, but then it fades with non-usage. Would it make it at all interesting? I have no idea... never played a game like that. It would solve the grind issue when you know it's only temporary. For those in team MP, this could be the start of a specialization idea. If you are the wood cutter, you will indeed be the best at it because you would be the only one actually maintaining the skill at its peak. For all other players who do not cut wood as much as the wood cutter, they lose what they gain eventually.Of course this does nothing for bringing the fun of buying perks. But no worry, you could still do that and they would be permanent and unaffected by time/non-usage.
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I'm really reluctant about skills atrophying over time. Yes, it's probably more realistic, but I value realism very very low in any game, especially one about Zombies... hehe.

Especially for single player (where specialisation is, in some sense, almost a non-factor), skills atrophying over time could be really annoying.

 
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