Jars, Dew Collectors, And Survival

[Jost Amman]

Everyone is talking about realism, or immersion, but few remember that the main focus of many choices TFP have made over the years is about gameplay progression.

Let's take water "survival" as an example. Think what you want about removing/adding jars, or dew collectors, but I remember that before removing jars and adding dew collectors, water wasn't an issue, EVER.

After the change, as planned by TFP, water is now a concern for the first few days (depending on your game experience). You need to go loot for murky water, you need to search or buy a cooking pot, and you need to boil water. Rinse and repeat.

That's until, stage 2, you start building dew collectors, where you can start worrying less and less about having to loot murky water every single day.
Most of you guys here will say something like "water is actually a non-issue even now". Probably. But think about how much experience you have accumulated in this game. Most of us know every trick in the book to immediately get the quickest and best results for survival.

New players and casual players however, will still probably struggle for the first days (or even week) before they solve the water issue for good.
For them, it is an achievement. So, in that regard, I'd say that for TFP is mission accomplished.

The group they'll always struggle to appease, in my educated opinion, it's the veteran players base and the min-maxers.
For us, whatever our preference, mods are the only real solution.

 

[Riamus]

First change a percentage of murky water into empty jars

And yet that is the last thing I want to see. If it's a game option, fine. At that point, I don't care what they do about jars, though I still think it's a waste of time that's better spent on finishing the game. But if it isn't a game option, I don't want to ever see empty jars drop in loot. If they are craft only so I can ignore them, then fine. But I don't want to have to once again deal with them in my inventory or in loot.

 

[theFlu]

Most of you guys here will say something like "water is actually a non-issue even now". Probably. But think about how much experience you have accumulated in this game. Most of us know every trick in the book to immediately get the quickest and best results for survival.

I don't hate the gist of your point; but I also honestly don't see much having changed.
D1 Before: loot for jars, empty or full; fill them up, boil water.
D1 Now: loot for jars, only full ones; boil water.
For boiling you still need the cooking pot, which remained exactly the same, find one, or craft one in a forge.
For "mass producing", you needed to get a forge and decent chunk of sand and clay; now you need a few stacks of tires and a couple trash bins for duct tape.

If someone, new or otherwise, struggles with the current; they would've struggled with the old just as much.

 

[Kyoji]

Because we have REAL statistics of a huge number of people PLAYING and not complaining, and also because the vast majority of reviews on Steam have always been positive in the long run. So, basically, we are NOT assuming there.

I am playing the game and have a positive steam review. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like some things changed. Not sure I understand your point.

I just want to reply to this part of what you said about farming being too complicated. When I ask for old-school farming, I’m not saying it should replace the current farm plot system. Plots can stay exactly as they are for people who prefer them. What I’m asking for is the option to farm the old way alongside it.

That means if you enjoy plots, nothing changes for you. If I enjoy using irrigation, UV lights underground, or the older style of farming, then I’d have the choice to play that way. I wouldn’t want farm plots removed or people forced into my preferred system — it’s about giving both options so different playstyles are supported. I would even be ok with the UV lights working on farm plots underground.

I can understand that, however, would it be worth losing development time towards temperature and clothing? Bandits? What would you sacrifice to add the code, HD icons and models, etc. I would love for everyone to get what they want. I just am curious as to what priority you have it.

But as for "dew collectors" making sense, ehhh.... They make sense in environments where there is regular fog, and NO other water. Not next to a fresh water lake. They're made of stainless steel meshes, not tarps, and most definitely not from car tires. A tarp deflects any air flow and thus takes the mist away from the surface, while a mesh allows for the moisture to interact as the air flows through it. The in-game contraption Looks like a rain collector, but since "rain" isn't an important enough feature to be implemented... it can't be.

And zombies would freeze in the winter and

After the change, as planned by TFP, water is now a concern for the first few days (depending on your game experience). You need to go loot for murky water, you need to search or buy a cooking pot, and you need to boil water. Rinse and repeat.

No it isn't. You find murky water in loot all day long. Dew collectors don't even need to be built to have water. You only build 8 dew collectors for when you want glue.

And yet that is the last thing I want to see. If it's a game option, fine. At that point, I don't care what they do about jars, though I still think it's a waste of time that's better spent on finishing the game. But if it isn't a game option, I don't want to ever see empty jars drop in loot. If they are craft only so I can ignore them, then fine. But I don't want to have to once again deal with them in my inventory or in loot.

I agree it's a waste of time and have made it pretty clear in my post and in others that I don't think jars is a major issue needing a massive fix. I am saying that if it were to be fixed it could be and presented ways to go about it that contradict 90% of what others disliked about jars. The other 10& is complaining about jars disappearing when used and for that I got no solution.

Again, you already get murky water in loot. Not sure how that is much better if the goal is to make water harder to come by.

 

[theFlu]

And zombies would freeze in the winter and

They do, that's why it used to be only lumberjacks there, and they even had frosty sound effects to them. It's like they swapped the CEO at some point and he started running the ship with a checklist, never getting to the assembly line to look at the product.

 

[Kalnazzar]

And yet that is the last thing I want to see. If it's a game option, fine. At that point, I don't care what they do about jars, though I still think it's a waste of time that's better spent on finishing the game. But if it isn't a game option, I don't want to ever see empty jars drop in loot. If they are craft only so I can ignore them, then fine. But I don't want to have to once again deal with them in my inventory or in loot.

This I think is a fair take people who don’t want to deal with jars it’s fair if they are never in loot. I’m ok with crafting the jars I hope if they add the jars back they make the recipe harder and it takes the crucible to be able to forge the glass.

 

[Kalnazzar]

I am playing the game and have a positive steam review. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like some things changed. Not sure I understand your point.

I can understand that, however, would it be worth losing development time towards temperature and clothing? Bandits? What would you sacrifice to add the code, HD icons and models, etc. I would love for everyone to get what they want. I just am curious as to what priority you have it.

And zombies would freeze in the winter and

No it isn't. You find murky water in loot all day long. Dew collectors don't even need to be built to have water. You only build 8 dew collectors for when you want glue.

I agree it's a waste of time and have made it pretty clear in my post and in others that I don't think jars is a major issue needing a massive fix. I am saying that if it were to be fixed it could be and presented ways to go about it that contradict 90% of what others disliked about jars. The other 10& is complaining about jars disappearing when used and for that I got no solution.

Again, you already get murky water in loot. Not sure how that is much better if the goal is to make water harder to come by.

I’m replying to this part: ‘…would it be worth losing development time towards temperature and clothing? Bandits? What would you sacrifice…’

Honestly, if the devs just said, ‘Let us finish what we’ve got planned now, and we’ll revisit this after bandits,’ I’d be fine with that. I’m not asking them to drop everything. What frustrates me is the way the issue keeps getting brushed off or mocked — like the whole ‘you only want jars back because it’s easy’ argument. That’s not why I (or others) want it. I don’t mind if it’s harder, I just want it addressed seriously.

What stings is when we don’t get a clear answer, just a ‘smart-■■■’ post that feels like a middle finger instead of actual communication about whether these systems will ever be revisited. If they simply said, ‘Yes, we’ll get back to it after the core game is finished,’ that would go a long way toward easing player frustration.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

I don´t care about jars. But i think the whole "everything else has no containers" is a stupid argument. If that was so important to TFP they would have done this a long long time ago. And Madmole never mentioned that when he answered why jars where removed.

I don't know. He's gets pretty close to saying it here when he says "One less wasted slot in inventory."

https://community.thefunpimps.com/threads/what-was-the-point-of-the-water-change.32098/#post-522917

Regardless, the "no containers" argument is sound in its own right because it is in fact true about the other liquid resources in the game. And it is typically provided in response to other weak arguments about "realism" or disappearing jars.

At the end of the day, most of the complaints about the removal of empty jars are really complaints about crafting recipes even if people don't realize it or won't admit it. The ability to scoop water from a lake or river into a jar does not substantively increase or decrease the "survival" element of 7d2d one iota. The real limitation on clean water is a cooking pot. Once you have that you have an endless supply of water to drink no matter the version of the game. What you don't have is an endless supply of water for duct tape until you build a bunch of dew collectors.

Finally, I never played a multi-genre survival game where water is actually a challenge apart from the first day or two. Yes, water might be a challenge in your first playthrough of such a game but after that you learn what to focus on to eliminate that friction.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Kosmic Kerman When i have time i will look for the post, he only answers the question why jars are removed and doesn´t mention the container thing.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

@Kosmic Kerman When i have time i will look for the post, he only answers the question why jars are removed and doesn´t mention the container thing.

He doesn't say containers specifically in the post I linked. He just talks about inventory clutter. FYI, the post I linked is from June 2023, around the time of A21's experimental release.

 

[zztong]

a report from Steam showed that in the month of July 98% of players played version 2 and close to 2% played version 1. Less than 1% were playing older versions. Interestingly, Alpha 16 was played by less than 0.01% of the players who played during the month of July. Plus, of course, the console crowd are ALL playing version 2 because they must.

Is this data from a source visible to the public? I'm asking because I wonder if there's more data and it would be neat to look.

 

[Jost Amman]

I am playing the game and have a positive steam review. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like some things changed. Not sure I understand your point.

My point, following your personal example, is that some people don't care enough about this or that change to complain.
They like the game enough to not care and to keep playing. You're in the minority here.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 4:56 PM

D1 Before: loot for jars, empty or full; fill them up, boil water.

No, it wasn't like that.

Before was:
1) loot for jars (find many empty jars in loot)
2) Fill them with murky water anywhere there's water on the map
3) Boil them and get clear water
4) Drink the water (or any drink you could craft) and get the empty jars back

You've now solved permanently the water survival issue.

 

[Jost Amman]

No it isn't. You find murky water in loot all day long. Dew collectors don't even need to be built to have water. You only build 8 dew collectors for when you want glue.

Partial quote and you completely ignored the rest.
You're exactly proving what I said and you're a "veteran" player probably, right?

 

[theFlu]

No, it wasn't like that.

Umm, yes it was.
Yes, you got to keep the containers; but now you get to autogenerate all the containers you need after D1 / D2. Along with the free water.
You get those 1-200 plastic just as fast as you can get to "reasonably unlimited" jars, especially given that all the non-drink recipes would eat your jars anyway.

 

[Jost Amman]

Umm, yes it was.
Yes, you got to keep the containers; but now you get to autogenerate all the containers you need after D1 / D2. Along with the free water.
You get those 1-200 plastic just as fast as you can get to "reasonably unlimited" jars, especially given that all the non-drink recipes would eat your jars anyway.

You probably ignore my point to have "a win" and are trolling, or you somehow missed my point.

It's NOT THE SAME I'm telling you. And, again, as a veteran player you already know how to easily find all the murky water you need.
New and casual players still have a good learning curve that makes the first few days (or week) challenging for them.

Before the water survival change, however, even the rookie player could find lots of empty jars and re-use them.
That was the end of water survival struggle (day 1).

With the new system, even with dew collectors, a new or casual player will only use them sporadically, not systematically like you probably do.

If you're talking about YOUR personal experience and skill, I can't but agree with you.
I'm not even talking about ME. I'm talking about game progression for the average player (which is not most people who are on this forum).

Hope that's clearer.

 

[Kalnazzar]

My point, following your personal example, is that some people don't care enough about this or that change to complain.
They like the game enough to not care and to keep playing. You're in the minority here.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 4:56 PM

No, it wasn't like that.

Before was:
1) loot for jars (find many empty jars in loot)
2) Fill them with murky water anywhere there's water on the map
3) Boil them and get clear water
4) Drink the water (or any drink you could craft) and get the empty jars back

You've now solved permanently the water survival issue.

It’s still a large amount of players, maybe not the whole community, but our feedback, requests, and ideas should still be respected and listened to. We’re still part of the community. Jars were in the game for 16+ alphas, and not once did the devs ask for feedback about removing them. Then, out of nowhere, they were just gone. Players gave tons of negative feedback, and instead of actually listening, it keeps getting brushed off as “just the vocal minority.” So what, because we’re not the whole community, we don’t matter at all? That’s not how you treat the people who supported this game.

The Kickstarter even promised that this wouldn’t just be their game, it would be everyone’s game, built together with community input. But the way concerns are dismissed now makes it feel like that promise was just a line to get funding. Whenever players voice issues, the answer is always the same dismissive excuse: “vocal minority.” Yet if streamers complain, fixes happen almost immediately.

The thing is, no one said jars made the game too easy couldn’t be addressed, they could have been improved instead of outright removed. Make the recipe cost more, extend the crafting time, require the crucible to craft, there were plenty of ways to balance it. The water purification process itself could’ve been made harder too, with more steps included. That’s how you refine a system instead of gutting it. And the dew collector? Sure, it should still exist for players who enjoy the AFK, no-interaction style of water farming. Nothing would change for them, they can sit and wait for their water as they always have. But for those of us who enjoy interacting with the world, scavenging, and actually crafting, we should still have that option too. That’s what a sandbox game is supposed to be about: options and player choice, not a single narrow path to achieve one objective.

 

[theFlu]

You probably ignore my point to have "a win" and are trolling, or you somehow missed my point.

Well, I do like being right; but that also means I do like being corrected - that just makes me more right in the future
I do troll on occasion, but only when deserved... so, no; I'm arguing in honesty.

I dunno; for the new player vs experienced player experience, I don't think a game is better for having convoluted mechanics that you have to learn before that system becomes trivial. That's just confusing for .. confusion's sake. And once you learn it, the mechanic is pointless, if it was trivial all along.

That is phrased in an exaggerated manner, but I'd rather the game be designed to be challenging for Everyone in places, and trivial in others. Of course, an experienced player will have an advantage; but a system can be made to be reasonably challenging with all the experience, while not prohibitively so for a newbie.

The tin can was perhaps the easiest example of such a design. You spawned in with a can of food, you ate it, and could use the can from it to boil water, one drink at a time. Once you figured that out, you would never Die of thirst, not even get too frustrated with it; but experienced players would end up not needing to use it, ever. It remained a fun quirk you could still do later, but never got in the way of the "actual game mechanics"; which was "jars" back then.

So, while the old system might have been less challenging for newbies; I don't think that's necessarily a good change, or a good design goal. Ultimately a game experience should be balanced to something between "decent utilization" and "fully exploiting" of all the systems in the game as they are, and in that sense, nothing changed.

 

[Kyoji]

My point, following your personal example, is that some people don't care enough about this or that change to complain.
They like the game enough to not care and to keep playing. You're in the minority here.

Why would you assume I am the minority? I think it's a good thing to discuss and challenge opinions. I agree, however, there is a massive delivery problem with players voicing their concerns and some even funnily enough get angry at TFP for their comments during the stream. Pot, why hello kettle!

Partial quote and you completely ignored the rest.
You're exactly proving what I said and you're a "veteran" player probably, right?

I did read it. I ignored quoting it because it was irrelevant. Murky water found in POIs has nothing to do with experience. There is tons of it to be found. All you need to do is boil it. So I still think there is too much water to be found in the game even if you never build a dew collector (until you need glue then you would spam them).

Not having jars because people are too stupid to build lots of dew collectors or loot POIs and boil water doesn't make a convincing argument against jars. Maybe I am missing something. If I am feel free to correct me, but I think this is the gist of what you are saying.

 

[Javabean867]

Here is what we should be able to do. Use the bucket to make a stack of 10 murky water. Seeing the jars are just servings of water.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

If it isn't a visual that is the driving catalyst.
Meaning having the picture of the jar and the animation showing the jar filling up.

Then why not have it based on the canned food, that already exists.
There are two points that I have kind of understood. TFP moving forward, and possibly
incorporating a thought into the next gen, @faatal cleaning up a decade of code and
making it work with the present Unity engine.

Players: Stated as simply as possible would be "Water water everywhere and not a drop to
put in a container for mass use". A really liberal paraphrase on my part.

Playing different mods, I look at the utility system, as far as smooth game flow. The closest
that I recently remember is "Forsaken Trail" It utilizes multiple water loot containers, like
boilers, "Which I liked because of the chance of the water being contaminated or clean"
you would drink directly from them and when empty it is done.

The expansion on it is the detailed multi-step process to acquire clean water. So it had/has a
support mechanic for continuation.

As a simplified version, would someone that wants the feeling, and ability to collect water
from sources be comfortable with the following.

The canned food that is found in the loot containers, once eaten need to be cleaned, but randomly
are rendered unusable, some are not resealable so those would be singular hold types, damage
while carrying them causes them to spill.

The support structure: Remove sales of canned food from traders "toggle option", Remove finding
extra food from Lucky Looter and any of the attributes that increase finding food "toggle option",

Use a slider specifically that goes from 0% to the present percentage of food chance being found in
loot containers. As an option add an additional slider called "Famine" that is based on <day value="*">
and a sliding percentage, that reduces volume of canned food found over time.

There are multiple can sizes in the game and only like should stack with like. Chili is not the same size
as the Beef ration. With out going overboard have 3 sizes, a random chance of being unuseable, once used
needs multiple steps to make can useable, and finally a percentage chance of being a one and done.

That would use present assets, present mechanics, provide levels of water collection across the spectrum of
preferences, personally dial-able and customizeable from the main menu and changeable during stop and go
sessions. Does not add a lot of re-configuring. "Famine" would give a little of a survival aspect as the game
progresses for those that want it, those that don't have both perishable storage and the dew collectors
or just dew collectors. Instead of finding jars of water in a toilet, you would find a limited water source,
unless you had a clean can you would have totally funky water, in a dirty can that would justify multiple
cleaning process to make the water safe-ish to drink. Or you could throw caution to the wind, use an empty slot
and drink toilet water, but unless you had had a clean prior and had made some Goldenrod tea or got antibiotics
from a High tier random drop, most water would need to be processed.

Note: using the above principle a tick box can be added to use an alternate model, an turn all of the cans into
3 sizes of mason jars. It the main concern is the picture representation.

If I were going to export one aspect out of all of the other things in Foresaken Trail mod, that would definitely
be it. Just a thought.