Jars, Dew Collectors, And Survival

[Invariel]

Which could have been adjusted easily

To be clear, you think they decided to scrap an entire game system without trying to tweak it internally first? I think there are significant flaws to the magazine system, but I don't think someone decided arbitrarily overnight to scrap the entire LBD system and replace it with crafting magazines just because. The LBD system that we had discouraged interacting with the game: why would you have stat at 19 when you could run around in circles for a minute to reach stat 20? Then stat 25 is just a few circles away from 30, 50, 100. LBD works in Rimworld because you are always doing; LBD is mocked in Skyrim because you can become a master at a task without actually engaging with the game. LBD in Dark Souls would be completely out of place: imagine perfecting your dodge roll stat before leaving your jail cell. It is a nice system, but it isn't a good fit for everything, and eventually someone at TFP made the call that it isn't a good fit for this game, no matter how you tweak the numbers.

They were also meaningful enough for a lot of people to ask for them back.

Are they meaningful because the system and their penalties are worthwhile and add to the game or are they meaningful because people are crying about it being a regular survival game mechanic and so it has to be in this survival game in some state so that the box can be ticked? Because the arguments I've seen online are for the latter: tick the box, and not the former: have the system actually do something worthwhile.

Perhaps I misread and if so I apologize. I agree water needs scarcity early game for it to be worthwhile and jars and dew collectors both were subpar in their respective implementations.

I think the idea was that you could make jars work with tweaks. I personally think jars being consume on use is better than the current system. It would get rid of all the extra jars while still being able to get water from actual sources. You could also make water more or less polluted by zone which require more or less refinement. Dew Collectors could be a supplementary method f

Jars are consumed on use in the current system. They're just also materialized on use. It's not about the jars.

What is subpar about the resource trickle of water that dew collectors provide in the early game? After crafting one, you get three water per day that you have to boil. And then as you progress that can become six per half day jars of actual water that doesn't require boiling. It actually turns your water availability into a progression system: the more you invest into it, the more available your water supply is.

Which goes back to everything I've said about water as a resource and resources having proper sinks.

When you go make 200 coffee, then drink 200 coffee and get empty jars back, then go to your nearest body of water and right-click twice, you don't have a trickle of resources that you've built into a surplus; you have a bunch of jars that make the resource irrelevant.

Clearly a lot of people were disheartened by the 2.0 update so yes it was either lazy or incompetent unless you think it was a good update initially.

"A lot of people" wanting something is not a solid argument. Whether I think it was a good or a bad update initially is irrelevant when discussing the systems that have changed and are in place. "A lot of people" in the context of most online discussions consist primarily of the people who are incensed enough to want to go online and complain about a thing. A much smaller percentage of people go online to express praise. Whether you do or not is irrelevant, in the aggregate opinions are more negative than positive.

People were saying smoothies are unrealistic and silly.

The replacement drinks are no less unrealistic, they will just have new names and icons to accomplish the same function. Ergo the problem is not the smoothies themselves, but the presentation of them.

but clearly enough people agreed

"Clearly enough people agreed" does not make it a good thing to agree about. You can infer what I might be referring to.

I'm more at odds with the loot bonanza.

I definitely agree that there is a loot bonanza problem with the game. Especially after learning that there are loot multipliers and bonuses for higher tier POIs. As I stated (in what was my OP, but is now just a post in this thread), survival works because of a limit on your resources, and 7D2D suffers from an issue where you reach an inflection point whereupon you gather far more than you can spend. I don't think this is inherently bad, but I do feel that that inflection point is reached far earlier than it should be.

Water is fine, but dew collectors are a really strange way to do it. I think the jars are a more immersive way to do it, but still not ideal. You could make jars lootable but rare, but then again there is too much loot in the game.

But jars are lootable. From dew collectors. Which, to go back to the point of abstraction, are having abstracted-away jars put there by the player to collect the water in.

Simple fix: Make dew collectors water purifiers instead. Make it so boiling doesn't remove all the contaminants and you have to put those jars into the purifier to make it usable for food and drink. Dew collectors being jar manufacturing workstations is just weird.

That is not a fix though. This assumes going back to the previous system of removing water as a bottleneck entirely and adding a second boiling step to the process.

Dew collectors aren't jar manufacturing stations, jars are abstracted away and are there when needed. Just imagine the player filling the dew collector with empty jars instead of following the absurd narrative that, and I quote from a video I saw recently, "dew collectors 3d print jars".

If you really thought that dew collectors were jar manufacturing workstations then campfires are bowl and plate manufacturing workstations.

There you are, I used the min/maxer in negative connotation

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but good for you.

[Edit: The post came in after I hit 'Post Reply', but I need to respond to it here instead of creating a new reply.]

theFlu:

Any of that is only necessary if they're trying to gate crafting with water.

YOU DID IT! YOU GOT THERE! They are trying to gate crafting with water. They stated outright that the goal of dew collectors was to have you choose between hydrating on day two or making glue.

 

[theFlu]

YOU DID IT! YOU GOT THERE! They are trying to gate crafting with water. They stated outright that the goal of dew collectors was to have you choose between hydrating on day two or making glue.

Indeed, and that is what the problem is. If you give me abstract jars when interacting with a Aqua Dimenzia -portal, give me abstract jars when interacting with a puddle. You getting there, yet?

 

[Invariel]

Indeed, and that is what the problem is. If you give me abstract jars when interacting with a Aqua Dimenzia -portal, give me abstract jars when interacting with a puddle. You getting there, yet?

You were right there! You found the point and then you did a 180 and walked away from it.

You, going back to Joel's post, liked it because it was easy, not because it was realistic.

You don't care about the realism, you care that there isn't a water bottleneck in the system, anywhere. This entire discussion will do nothing for you.

 

[theFlu]

You, going back to Joel's post, liked it because it was easy, not because it was realistic.

Reported. Not really, but this all was discussed, what, two years ago? Welcome to roughly up to speed; I guess. Your insults are pointless; and dull, much like your compassion and general understanding.

 

[Invariel]

Reported. Not really, but this all was discussed, what, two years ago? Welcome to roughly up to speed; I guess. Your insults are pointless; and dull, much like your compassion and general understanding.

I have compassion and understanding. You're deliberately missing, avoiding, and dancing around the actual issue about why having access to infinite water was removed, under the guise of realism, ignoring the game needing some sort of balance.

 

[theFlu]

I have compassion and understanding. You're deliberately missing, avoiding, and dancing around the actual issue

You're simply not listening.
I want it harder.
I want it realistic.

It used to be realistic.
It used to be harder (getting a forge was a random book, sometimes took to D30+ finding one. That was better.)

If it's not even made harder, at least don't break the realism.

HARDER.
HARDER.
HARDER.

 

[Kyoji]

To be clear, you think they decided to scrap an entire game system without trying to tweak it internally first? I think there are significant flaws to the magazine system, but I don't think someone decided arbitrarily overnight to scrap the entire LBD system and replace it with crafting magazines just because. The LBD system that we had discouraged interacting with the game: why would you have stat at 19 when you could run around in circles for a minute to reach stat 20? Then stat 25 is just a few circles away from 30, 50, 100. LBD works in Rimworld because you are always doing; LBD is mocked in Skyrim because you can become a master at a task without actually engaging with the game. LBD in Dark Souls would be completely out of place: imagine perfecting your dodge roll stat before leaving your jail cell. It is a nice system, but it isn't a good fit for everything, and eventually someone at TFP made the call that it isn't a good fit for this game, no matter how you tweak the numbers.

Your making an argument to yourself. I said that fixing the old system would have been less time intensive than the current system. I never said they didn't try and make tweaks.

The idea behind LBD is to craft 20 clubs, but to use those clubs and ideally get points on kill. Grounded 2 has such a system and it seems to work fine. For things that might not work best that way you make into a perk system.

Are they meaningful because the system and their penalties are worthwhile and add to the game or are they meaningful because people are crying about it being a regular survival game mechanic and so it has to be in this survival game in some state so that the box can be ticked? Because the arguments I've seen online are for the latter: tick the box, and not the former: have the system actually do something worthwhile.

I enjoyed them. I imagine from seeing others post about it they do as well. It's kind of why they are posting about it. I don't understand the logic of someone complaining for something they don't want.

Either way the entire discussion for bringing back things isn't for a one for one, but to bring them back and make them better. You are focused on what previous alphas have done and not what can be done to make things better.

Jars are consumed on use in the current system. They're just also materialized on use. It's not about the jars.

What is subpar about the resource trickle of water that dew collectors provide in the early game? After crafting one, you get three water per day that you have to boil. And then as you progress that can become six per half day jars of actual water that doesn't require boiling. It actually turns your water availability into a progression system: the more you invest into it, the more available your water supply is.

Which goes back to everything I've said about water as a resource and resources having proper sinks.

When you go make 200 coffee, then drink 200 coffee and get empty jars back, then go to your nearest body of water and right-click twice, you don't have a trickle of resources that you've built into a surplus; you have a bunch of jars that make the resource irrelevant.

I was referencing the old system and how one could fix the problem of having too many jars.

The subpar aspects of dew collectors to the old system include:
- Water sources being irrelevant
- They take up a lot of space in your base and you generally need more than one for glue
- Less intuitive than being able to just get water from a water source
- Development time spent on implementing the new system and asset created

Again the point I am making is that if you simply made jars consume on use and some loot chance changes you would have the pros of jars with no cons of having 200 jars as you said.

"A lot of people" wanting something is not a solid argument. Whether I think it was a good or a bad update initially is irrelevant when discussing the systems that have changed and are in place. "A lot of people" in the context of most online discussions consist primarily of the people who are incensed enough to want to go online and complain about a thing. A much smaller percentage of people go online to express praise. Whether you do or not is irrelevant, in the aggregate opinions are more negative than positive.


The replacement drinks are no less unrealistic, they will just have new names and icons to accomplish the same function. Ergo the problem is not the smoothies themselves, but the presentation of them.


"Clearly enough people agreed" does not make it a good thing to agree about. You can infer what I might be referring to.

It's a good argument if you want to understand why the changes are made and gain insight on what the trends are for things.

Also the reply was to your own which was:

You can hurl those words around if you want. I think the underlying problem was, "We need a temporary way to grant access to this dangerous place," and someone in a design meeting said, "How about we let them make drinks that let them do that," and then someone said, "Smoothies are nice," and they went with that. But if you're going to rag on smoothies but then say, "This functionally different thing with a brand new icon—BUT SHE'S GOT A NEW HAT!!!—is a more appropriate thing" just because the name is different, you're not mad about smoothies, you're mad that they're called smoothies, and have no actual issue with the problem that they're solving.

So I am simply saying that implying someone is as you say "on the rag" because they disagree with your take is incorrect as there are plenty of others who agree that smoothies were not implemented well.

Again, as I have tried to explain to which you either willingly fail to understand or do not have the capacity to that it is the unrealistic approach smoothies took that was the issue.

I have compassion and understanding. You're deliberately missing, avoiding, and dancing around the actual issue about why having access to infinite water was removed, under the guise of realism, ignoring the game needing some sort of balance.

And you are missing the point that many of the people who want jars back don't want 100 jars either. That's why suggestions such as breaking on impact exist or consume on use.

For whatever reason you think everyone wants it easy and disregard direct statements saying otherwise.

 

[Invariel]

You're simply not listening.
I want it harder.
I want it realistic.

Then find the mods that make it harder. Or realistic. Putting jars back into the game so you can right-click a water source doesn't make the game harder, it just makes things more convenient.

It used to be realistic.
It used to be harder (getting a forge was a random book, sometimes took to D30+ finding one. That was better.)

Gating progression behind random drops is neither realistic, difficult, nor fun. There was a time when there was a "craft forge" book, but also you could unlock it at Workstations 3 or somesuch -- in my opinion, that was a good place for things: you could spend points to get the things you wanted, or put your points elsewhere and find a book. I would agree that it was "better" because there were multiple paths to the desired outcome, but I would disagree that the only way to have a forge was to find a single book was a better system than what is in place now.

If it's not even made harder, at least don't break the realism.

You keep using that word, etc., etc..
Realism is not necessarily something that translates well into games or fun. It's a balance, and I would agree that there are places where TFP have thrown realism out the window for the sake of fun (that perk that lets you throw yourself off of a skyscraper and live as long as you're holding 5000 dukes), but I don't think that they removed realism and removed fun in the process.

HARDER.
HARDER.
HARDER.

BETTER.
FASTER.
STRONGER.
MORE THAN, HOUR.
HOUR, NEVER.

I said that fixing the old system would have been less time intensive than the current system. I never said they didn't try and make tweaks.

And I responded by saying that I suspect (because I don't work for the company and wasn't there) that they tried to make tweaks and changes, and came to the decision, for their game, that there was no series of levers and meters and buttons they could press to make the system work in a way that also worked with the game they want to make.

The idea behind LBD is to craft 20 clubs, but to use those clubs and ideally get points on kill.

I was there for LBD. But an LBD system by itself fundamentally doesn't work because it detaches you from the actual game. At that point you may as well just alter your stats to be all 100s before you load into the world for the first time.

You are focused on what previous alphas have done and not what can be done to make things better.

I'm focused on the arguments I see people making where they want to return to previous alphas. I have my own laundry list of things that I think would improve existing systems and make the game better, but outside of writing small mods that do fix issues

I was referencing the old system and how one could fix the problem of having too many jars.

The subpar aspects of dew collectors to the old system include:

Again the point I am making is that if you simply made jars consume on use and some loot chance changes you would have the pros of jars with no cons of having 200 jars as you said.

- Water sources being irrelevant

Fair point, at the moment they are, absolutely. That doesn't mean they should be immediately reinstated as an infinite resource.

- They take up a lot of space in your base and you generally need more than one for glue

Yep, they take up quite a bit of space, but as far as I have experienced zombies don't attack them so they're just there for you to run between. Personally, they go on the roof of my bases. Also, lakes and rivers take up a lot of space.

As for needing more than one for glue, yep. You have to actually build toward having a reliable source of water, spending resources in the process, which is more in-line with how a game system should function.

- Less intuitive than being able to just get water from a water source

They're a water source. You craft them, plant them, and then interact with them using existing systems. Maybe they should have a tutorial?

- Development time spent on implementing the new system and asset created

That's a whole different level of entitlement that I am going to ignore, but the gist of that entire discussion is, "you giving TFP $10 twelve years ago does not let you direct their development process."

Again, as I have tried to explain to which you either willingly fail to understand or do not have the capacity to that it is the unrealistic approach smoothies took that was the issue.

The "unrealistic" part of smoothies is that they let you exist in the biome for a period of time. But the community seems generally happy that smoothies are being rebranded to do the exact same thing with a new icon. If you're upset about the unrealism, then you should still be upset about the rebrand.

And you are missing the point that many of the people who want jars back don't want 100 jars either. That's why suggestions such as breaking on impact exist or consume on use.

Once again, jars are not the problem. You've made the argument a number of times that there's a decision to be made for the distance between a water source and the base; when you minimize that, the jars go into a storage box to sit and wait until you need them, with no chance of breakage. Even if you're carrying ten of them with you while you wander, you're risking, at most, a small fraction of your infinite resource. As for consume on use, jars are currently consumed on use, disappearing from your inventory and returning to the abstracted away void space where jars are materialized from when they are needed. Jars are not the problem.

Water being an infinite resource is the problem, and I have yet to see a viable solution to that problem that doesn't make things even more needlessly complicated for players at anything less than the endgame that also make realistic sense. Water is meant to be a system in the game, not the entire game.

 

[theFlu]

Realism is not necessarily something that translates well into games or fun. It's a balance, and I would agree that there are places where TFP have thrown realism out the window for the sake of fun (that perk that lets you throw yourself off of a skyscraper and live as long as you're holding 5000 dukes), but I don't think that they removed realism and removed fun in the process.

I agree that Oh ■■■■'s drops are fun; I don't mind them, although the whole magic candy system does put me off. Another money sink to enforce the quest loop gameplay. But the Aqua portals aren't fun, or difficult. Just another push to get people into POIs to loot plastic. What's the difficulty difference between "craft a 100 jars" and "craft a single dew portal"? None, you needed the forge for the jars which has always been a little harder to unlock than the portal is. You needed to go gather some sand vs you need to gather some polymer.. yay for difficult decisions?

You obviously weren't here for the early implementations of the game; you're fine with different things than I am; and want different things than I do. That's fine. But stop assuming you know "they're just lazy", about me or anyone else. That's purely Madmole's delusions. I can't remember Anyone whose arguments would've boiled down to that in the couple years this has been moaned about. I'm sure there have been _some_, but about 95% care about something else.

State YOUR opinion about the game; and stop trying to insult others by pretending you know their thinking better than they do.

 

[Invariel]

I started playing, albeit not that frequently, around A15. I've watched things progress: I watched drying concrete be removed and was thankful for it. I watched learn by doing disappear and it took an adjustment but I am comfortable with the system that replaced it. I saw crafting skills removed from the skill tree being replaced by magazines and I think the system needs tweaks.

Another money sink

The sinks are required to make the survival portion of the gameplay loop make any sense. Without the sinks there's no sense of urgency or anything else because the resources are always there. And, you get to the point where you're gaining more than you spend, and that's a "problem" with these types of games, but sinks are an attempted solution to the problem of safety. They're an inherent gameplay mechanic to keep things interesting.

to enforce the quest loop gameplay

I've seen a lot of commentary about the devs pushing players into the quest system for things, and I agree. I think things were better when everything was, in some way, salvageable or craftable. I don't like that certain things are gated behind merchants, and I don't like that if you turn traders off you can now just never have a consistent source of water. But I accept the quest system as a stepping stone toward whatever bandits are supposed to be, and as a means of some sort of guarantee of resources by completing stated objectives. Is questing the only way to get a bike, no, but you are guaranteed one after completing ten quests. And I think that's better than not being there.

Would I like the quest system to be less mandatory? Yep. Would I like traders to be less mandatory? Also yep. Do I think it's silly that traders have a magical zombie-repellent forcefield that also keeps players out? Yep. But I live with that because it's not a big deal.

You obviously weren't here for the early implementations of the game;

But stop assuming you know "they're just lazy", about me or anyone else.

I'll just let these two statements sit here, side by side.

State YOUR opinion about the game; and stop trying to insult others by pretending you know their thinking better than they do.

I have stated my own opinion about the game, as it relates to the points I find repeated on the internet that I disagree with. That's how a conversation works. You're trying to tell me why my ideas and beliefs are wrong, and I'm trying to convince you that you're mistaken by offering up a perspective you might not have considered. And even if you have considered it, maybe you'll consider it again.

 

[theFlu]

You're trying to tell me why my ideas and beliefs are wrong, and I'm trying to convince you that you're mistaken by offering up a perspective you might not have considered. And even if you have considered it, maybe you'll consider it again.

Which part of "you're just lazy and want it easy" do you think I hadn't considered over the last two years?

 

[Kyoji]

I was there for LBD. But an LBD system by itself fundamentally doesn't work because it detaches you from the actual game. At that point you may as well just alter your stats to be all 100s before you load into the world for the first time.

I was too. I never said I wanted LBD by itself in fact if your curious I don't even think adding jars and LBD is worth doing I'm simply trying to correct what I believe are your misunderstandings on what others are wanting.

I personally agree with Lazman that a perk and LBD system would have been ideal. But again I don't think it's worth the development time to get there. The point is that the people asking for LBD from what I have seen are asking for a system that isn't as exploitative as the previous versions where you craft 200 clubs to get to max rank.

If you made clubs increase on zombie kills then that would be more on line with a proper LBD system.

Fair point, at the moment they are, absolutely. That doesn't mean they should be immediately reinstated as an infinite resource.


Yep, they take up quite a bit of space, but as far as I have experienced zombies don't attack them so they're just there for you to run between. Personally, they go on the roof of my bases. Also, lakes and rivers take up a lot of space.

As for needing more than one for glue, yep. You have to actually build toward having a reliable source of water, spending resources in the process, which is more in-line with how a game system should function.


They're a water source. You craft them, plant them, and then interact with them using existing systems. Maybe they should have a tutorial?

I am not suggesting they do reinstate anything. I am simply pointing out flaws in the new system.

Building lots of dew collectors is hardly difficult in the stage where you would need to craft glue. So I wouldn't say it helps towards progression much.

I am fine with the dew collector or jars or whatever. I think the issue still remains that water is still far too abundant in loot and it makes the early game trivial.

That's a whole different level of entitlement that I am going to ignore, but the gist of that entire discussion is, "you giving TFP $10 twelve years ago does not let you direct their development process."


The "unrealistic" part of smoothies is that they let you exist in the biome for a period of time. But the community seems generally happy that smoothies are being rebranded to do the exact same thing with a new icon. If you're upset about the unrealism, then you should still be upset about the rebrand.

Why is that entitlement to suggest that the development time for dew collectors, which doesn't fix the water scarcity problem, was wasted potential? I listed reasons why adjusting the old system would be better. Why would avoided development time for a new system not be a positive?

Based on that logic it's entitlement to suggest any critiques of the game including ones the developers are looking into - such as jars.

Why would you not expect a radiation suit to provide some protection against radiation? It's much better than a magical smoothie that does the same thing. Even if your argument is that it doesn't go far enough you should at least concede that it's better than a radiation mushroom smoothie. Further work may be done to make the system better but it's a step in the right direction for sure.


If anything the most pressing issue for the game is breaking the monotony of the quest rinse/repeat cycle and making gameplay more open ended and diverse.

 

[Invariel]

I was too. I never said I wanted LBD by itself in fact if your curious I don't even think adding jars and LBD is worth doing I'm simply trying to correct what I believe are your misunderstandings on what others are wanting.

I personally agree with Lazman that a perk and LBD system would have been ideal. But again I don't think it's worth the development time to get there. The point is that the people asking for LBD from what I have seen are asking for a system that isn't as exploitative as the previous versions where you craft 200 clubs to get to max rank.

I think LBD with perks and caps would be a fantastic way to merge the two systems. But I can only comment on the things I have seen other people saying, which, for the most part, has been, "Removing LBD was a waste, why remove a perfectly good system in its entirety and replace it with crap?" and no other words, suggesting that what that group of people wanted was to have the old system back with no changes.

And I do think it's worth the development time to get there, since the previous code still exists in some form, and it could be the mix that the playerbase could appreciate. I understand and recognize there are other priorities, but back burnering bringing LBD back into the game in a way that still encourages interacting with it would be a plus.

If you made clubs increase on zombie kills then that would be more on line with a proper LBD system.

That depends on the granularity of the LBD system; smacking zombies with clubs could level up their durability as you learn how to hit more effectively without affecting your ability to craft them.

I am simply pointing out flaws in the new system.

But are you able to acknowledge that the new system does solve a fundamental problem with the old system, and this measure, while maybe imperfect, at least adds water back as a concern for some stage of the game rather than a mild inconvenience?

Building lots of dew collectors is hardly difficult in the stage where you would need to craft glue. So I wouldn't say it helps towards progression much.

You have to do the bare minimum of work of building the dew collectors, and then wait for them to fill a couple of times, in addition to being able to run out and loot buildings to try to find more of the resource, instead of the previous system where that wasn't a concern at all. This system, however flawed it may be, at least requires interacting with it to get to the point where you can mass produce glue.

I think the issue still remains that water is still far too abundant in loot and it makes the early game trivial.

Water's abundance in the early game is directly proportional to the number of people you're playing with in the current system. My experience is that four or five people are a massive drain on water that questing/POIs don't quite meet, and where there is definitely an inflection point where enough dew collectors remove the concern, however walking up to the river and filling up 125 jars at a time to bring back to the base removes water from the equation no matter how many people you're playing with.

Why is that entitlement to suggest that the development time for dew collectors, which doesn't fix the water scarcity problem, was wasted potential?

It's not entitlement to say that you don't think a system that was released missed the mark. And I am not saying that you are claiming entitlement issues. What is entitlement, what I have seen elsewhere on the internet, is people claiming they should have been asked directly as to whether it was worth pursuing, on the basis that the person gave the company some money one time.

Whether or not dew collectors address the water abundance issue (and I would argue that they are a step in the right direction, and a problem you can scale yourself out of with some degree of ease is an actual discussion that we can agree and disagree about.

Why would you not expect a radiation suit to provide some protection against radiation? It's much better than a magical smoothie that does the same thing. Even if your argument is that it doesn't go far enough you should at least concede that it's better than a radiation mushroom smoothie. Further work may be done to make the system better but it's a step in the right direction for sure.

I would expect a radiation suit to offer protection against radiation. And I like that the badges are becoming some sort of PPE that can be multi-craftable. My genuine hope is that badges were a stopgap that were always meant to be replaced by PPE, because I agree that walking up to your local Pokémon gym to be able to control Pokémon up to level 30 ... err ... safely walk around the Burnt Forest is silly. I'm glad that the system is being updated.

But in terms of a temporary solution to the radiation (or smoke or heat or ...) problem, since clothes don't currently degrade and disappear, a consumable makes the most sense within the current systems of the game for a temporary buff that lets you go there safely.

My point of frustration with the hypervocal part of the community that are okay with smoothies being rebranded mushroom pies is that the pie and the smoothie are exactly the same thing, and the anger is misplaced.

If anything the most pressing issue for the game is breaking the monotony of the quest rinse/repeat cycle and making gameplay more open ended and diverse.

I strongly agree with you here. While I do like traders and having objectives, I don't think that should be the focus of the game, and I think the people that want to play without interacting with those systems should be able to. Locking items behind trader progression (water filters, solar panels) is, in my opinion, a bad solution to a progression problem.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Water's abundance in the early game is directly proportional to the number of people you're playing with in the current system. My experience is that four or five people are a massive drain on water that questing/POIs don't quite meet, and where there is definitely an inflection point where enough dew collectors remove the concern, however walking up to the river and filling up 125 jars at a time to bring back to the base removes water from the equation no matter how many people you're playing with.

You weren't likely to have 125 jars (or a forge) on day 1 back in the day. I can easily have minimum 2 dew collectors built on day 1. I've made as many as 4 (I haven't really tried to see how many I could build.) The dew collector system, and the removal of jars (I'll admit, I'd have preferred they'd added containers for all fluids rather than removing jars, similar to Undead Legacy) utterly fails to address the issue it was meant to address.

Which, to me, makes it seem like a pointless change. Much like the badges, which are so trivial to acquire that they also feel like a pointless change.

Personally, I'd love long complicated processing setups required to refine ore, clean water, etc., but I'm also a fan of factory games, so....

 

[Invariel]

You just as equally aren't likely to find the Forge Ahead that you need on day 1 alongside 200 polymer to make those Dew Collectors unless you laser focus on them, and even then you aren't getting any actual water until day 2 because of how long that takes. It gives you a slow drip of resource instead of all of the resource all at once.

I'm sure you could find or commission a mod that makes the game as complicated as you want it, up to and including (and going beyond) Factorio's Seablock, but I'm sure you can also appreciate that people aren't quite as dedicated or hardcore as you are and aren't likely to even have one Dew Collector on day one.

 

[Vaeliorin]

You just as equally aren't likely to find the Forge Ahead that you need on day 1 alongside 200 polymer to make those Dew Collectors unless you laser focus on them, and even then you aren't getting any actual water until day 2 because of how long that takes. It gives you a slow drip of resource instead of all of the resource all at once.

I'm sure you could find or commission a mod that makes the game as complicated as you want it, up to and including (and going beyond) Factorio's Seablock, but I'm sure you can also appreciate that people aren't quite as dedicated or hardcore as you are and aren't likely to even have one Dew Collector on day one.

Honestly, I just gather everything as I go, I don't focus on dew collectors. And the likelihood of not finding at least 1 Forge Ahead in the trader compound is seemingly vanishingly small.

But yes, someone less familiar with the game is certainly going to be slower.

 

[ALEXZANDER]

Game difinitely needs more survival elements! I Abondoned game untill will see a normall update

 

[Corwyhn]

Definitely do not make water radioactive. Sorry but dumb ideal Just add jars back and except its more immersion then being about adding a challenge. There are many more interesting challenges to have in the game.

If they REALLY need to make water a challenge seems simple enough. Bio contaminants of some kind and you have to make filters that only last so long and need special resources to make. But then you have to have a chance to get infected or sick when going in water. Still my preference is just let water be water and have plastic containers for it. Jars never made sense with the amount of plastic containers out there to grab and use.

 

[Suxar]

But no, a drone must require 20 gallons of glue, so you can have a choice of day one whether to drink water or not ..

It doesn't matter. By the time you collect the magazines needed to open its production, you will have thousands of glue.