PC If TFP wanted natural progression might I suggest they bring back "spam crafting"

[JCrook1028]

I'd like to have the option to die ten times trying to get a pistol on day one, instead of having to "grind" my way through easy early game enemies until the game decides the stone age is over and starts showering me with pistols like that's supposed to make it feel better.

What you're asking for is already planned when biomes and specific POI's are able to have GS modifiers so they get better loot and tougher zombies. All comes back to the same point, it's a work in progress. You are not seeing the finished product.

 

[warmer]

If progression backed xp is brought back, leveling through quests would help. you get tasked with making x amount of an iron or better tool, and the reward would be mostly xp in that skill + a schematic. 

That would make for some cool trader quests. 

"We need 6 iron shovels by day 6 or we'll very get that moat dug to protect ourselves, can you help source the goods?"

^ that seems like an interesting question just for the fact that it will break up the repetition of the other quest types.

 

[Dracula]

Man, I think the hub city is one of the things I miss the most. All cities now are pretty much the same, but the hub city was the city. I remember you always had to wait till you had somewhat decent gear to go there, and as you say it's where all the good stuff was. You couldn't just clear it out either, as respawns where almost instantaneous, so you had to sneak around or be as quick as possible.

Yeah, the hub city was great. I wish they put it back, or there was a mod for it at least.

It almost seems like it was a different game.  I remember staying on the outskirts of the city; sniping dogs and cops until I could make my way to a car for resources, run back to my encampment just outside the city, and repeat.

When I got a minibike, it meant I could make a mad dash to a new building; sometimes it would have good loot, sometimes it wouldn't.  It was a fun gamble and took about an in-game week to search a few buildings before heading back to my base for horde night.

I miss the dumb AI and the feeling that the trips into the city were a risk/reward gamble; now it plays as craft wood frame, find trader, build base across from trader, build horde base outside of town.

 

[Xtrakicking]

It almost seems like it was a different game.  I remember staying on the outskirts of the city; sniping dogs and cops until I could make my way to a car for resources, run back to my encampment just outside the city, and repeat.

When I got a minibike, it meant I could make a mad dash to a new building; sometimes it would have good loot, sometimes it wouldn't.  It was a fun gamble and took about an in-game week to search a few buildings before heading back to my base for horde night.

I miss the dumb AI and the feeling that the trips into the city were a risk/reward gamble; now it plays as craft wood frame, find trader, build base across from trader, build horde base outside of town.

I remember the tension of breaking the windows of a Working Stiffs from afar with either guns or crossbows, enter and loot the crates as fast as possible, then running away if things got too heavy to handle.

Those were the guns blazing days. The stealth days were all about crossbows and stones.

 

[Roland]

you didnt have to worry about killing zeds in a18, because you still had the ability to find decent loot, even if your game stage wasnt far along. in a19 now loot is directly correlated to gamestage, meaning youre forced to try to level as quickly as possible if you want the decent weapons that you need to defend your base during horde nights

Loot has always been directly tied to gamestage ever since there was gamestage. It was just a looser relationship than it was now. 
 

I promise you that this game has NEVER forced anyone to level as quickly as possible and does not do so now. And yet we have people choosing to rush leveling because that is how they like to play. And that’s fine. But don’t claim that people must play that way because there is plenty of proof otherwise. 
 

Decent weapons for Day 7 horde ARE blundies, spears, and primitive bows Along with pipe bombs and molotovs. The event only lasts a couple game hours or so. I found a brown AK47 before the day 14 horde in my last game and that was more than decent for that night. 

I mean I can only handle get a level 4 or 5 blunderbuss about 10 times before i get sick of how artificial it feels

My experience has been different. Once I start getting quality 5 and 6 primitive gear I am starting to find parts and quality 1 guns. 

 

[Ranzera]

And now the circle is complete, anyone who has criticisms of spam crafting is a troll.  That was fast.  Ad hominems against anyone who disagrees is a great way to discredit your own opinion and taint the ideals you hold with your poor example.  I heavily advise against it.  Disagree with other people, hold the opinion that spam crafting is better, it's a subjective preference so you cannot be wrong (and neither can they) by definition.  But don't be a @%$*#! by insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

Game design is always going to evolve and change, things you like will eventually change as a game continues to develop.  Whether LBD or the current skill system is the "better" option the current system is what we have now and the player counts for this 7 year old PVE game are at record levels and the game keeps consistently growing.  A18 gained a large player bump the game maintained.  The end of the year normally gets a small bump in activity over the holidays, but A18 doubled the active population and then maintained it.  A17 was the initial flawed implementation of the new skill system, A18 went back and fixed most of the problems with it, A19 provided some polish to the skill system.  A18 was basically the culmination of the new skill system.

Like it or not, the rebuild was super successful from a metrics point of view.  I'm sorry you preferred the old system.  I could do either and I view either as a tradeoff progression wise in a vacuum in an individual playthrough.  For multiple playthroughs I vastly prefer the current system however because now all the builds and weapons have their own identities and offer greatly different experiences, which did not exist in the old systems.  I can also progress what I want by playing how I want, offering much more freedom of gameplay.  If I want to pour all my points into weapons early on and crush at scavegning I can do that.  If I want to pour it all into mining and crush as mining and basebuilding I can do that.  The nuances and experiences I can choose right now are pretty diverse.  In the old LBD system, it didn't matter how I wanted to play  it was going to take me 20 hours to be able to effectively play that way and most of the early to mid game experience of each run would be the same.

Seriously though, go pure agility then go pure perception then go pure int then go pure strength then go pure fortitude.  All of them play incredibly differently in ways that did not exist before and they do so from like day 3 instead of like day 20-30 like would be the case with the old LBD.   And to implement that same kind of functionality of being able to quickly choose a playstyle while maintaining your freedom into the old LBD system would be nearly impossible and is fraught with problems.

The new system lacks some of the charms of LBD, but in tradeoff it crushes in alot of other areas...especially replayablity.

I didn't say spam crafting was good or anyone with criticisms against it was an idiot. I SAID IT WAS ALREADY GONE IN THE LAST VERSION OF LBD

 

[Ranzera]

ITT Moderators come to defend the purity of the strawmanning trolls.

 

[meganoth]

ITT Moderators come to defend the purity of the strawmanning trolls.

If you think a post is against forum rules, report it. If not and you start using insults, you can only blame yourself for the result.

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

Loot has always been directly tied to gamestage ever since there was gamestage. It was just a looser relationship than it was now. 
 

I promise you that this game has NEVER forced anyone to level as quickly as possible and does not do so now. And yet we have people choosing to rush leveling because that is how they like to play. And that’s fine. But don’t claim that people must play that way because there is plenty of proof otherwise. 
 

Decent weapons for Day 7 horde ARE blundies, spears, and primitive bows Along with pipe bombs and molotovs. The event only lasts a couple game hours or so. I found a brown AK47 before the day 14 horde in my last game and that was more than decent for that night. 

My experience has been different. Once I start getting quality 5 and 6 primitive gear I am starting to find parts and quality 1 guns. 

I have noticed some youtubers like jawoodle get shotguns first day. So it sounds like rnJeasus is still large and in charge here. The blunderbus is not a bad weapon either, i find that it is a simple insta kill at close range gun. Is it dependent on shotgun perks? if so than that might explain why i did so well with it. 

I remember the tension of breaking the windows of a Working Stiffs from afar with either guns or crossbows, enter and loot the crates as fast as possible, then running away if things got too heavy to handle.

Those were the guns blazing days. The stealth days were all about crossbows and stones.

I do remember those days.I have not run away from a poi in a while now that you mention it. I am not sure if it's because the pois have changed, or if my play style adapted, or because i can't due to the questing system. I found in that after the baseball bat was introduced that it changed the game difficulty for me quite a bit. I had a system where i would go into a room, regardless of night or day, hit the wall, then deal with everything that woke up to fight me. If i do run away from something, it will be because of the mod i am playing. I have not had too many experiences with feral wrights jumping out of a building anymore. My set up is "apocalypse knight" where i am in steel armor and have baseball bats. In a19 the only change is i use the steel club now. I rush to make tier 5 blue steel armor. Its good for close range fighting, and now that it is in the strength tree that play style is much easier for me. 

I have more difficulty doing that now, because of the critical wound system. Getting hit too many times in a fight will mess you up a bit. 

Maybe some pois need to be infested spawns? they can have their own sprite, and a quest that will appear next to it, and when you start that quest it will have 64 times the normal level of zombies, that are 20 game stage higher? 

 

[Biscoitoso]

This ridiculous system forces you to use a certain weapon because it is in the same skill tree as the one you want to take. You can't, for example, be a guy with intellect and at the same time good with pistols (at least not in the beginning, because you won't have points to put in the two skill trees).
 

I liked the old system, it was far better, which didn't have these stupid limitations. The limitations were on the character's level and on certain skills that were learned by pratice. For example, do you want to be good at mining? Mine. Want to be good with pistols? Use pistols, and so on.
 

You could place the points freely on the skills that were of interest to you and you didn't need to waste points where you didn't want to.

But there is no use criticizing, TFP does not care much about the opinions of the players, you have to eat what they want to serve and if you don't like the taste, ask a modder to bring you "water" to make it easier to eat.
 

The old system was undoubtedly much more organic and challenging, it was much more customizable. Now to have the character the way I want it, I need to have a lot more levels and spend a lot more time playing.
 

Not to mention that, in my view, the points spent purely to enhance attributes, are often wasted points. Sometimes I want to raise the Force tree just to be able to mine better, without pretending to use shotguns or clubs, and these points are of no use to me, because they give bonuses directly in skills that I never will use.
But ok, here we go wasting 8 character levels to level up Force to 7 so I can have Miner'69 Er and Mother Lode maxed.

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

This ridiculous system forces you to use a certain weapon because it is in the same skill tree as the one you want to take. You can't, for example, be a guy with intellect and at the same time good with pistols (at least not in the beginning, because you won't have points to put in the two skill trees).
 

I liked the old system, it was far better, which didn't have these stupid limitations. The limitations were on the character's level and on certain skills that were learned by pratice. For example, do you want to be good at mining? Mine. Want to be good with pistols? Use pistols, and so on.
 

You could place the points freely on the skills that were of interest to you and you didn't need to waste points where you didn't want to.

But there is no use criticizing, TFP does not care much about the opinions of the players, you have to eat what they want to serve and if you don't like the taste, ask a modder to bring you "water" to make it easier to eat.
 

The old system was undoubtedly much more organic and challenging, it was much more customizable. Now to have the character the way I want it, I need to have a lot more levels and spend a lot more time playing.
 

Not to mention that, in my view, the points spent purely to enhance attributes, are often wasted points. Sometimes I want to raise the Force tree just to be able to mine better, without pretending to use shotguns or clubs, and these points are of no use to me, because they give bonuses directly in skills that I never will use.
But ok, here we go wasting 8 character levels to level up Force to 7 so I can have Miner'69 Er and Mother Lode maxed.

Yeah, darkness falls has this system, and as a result it is my go to for this game. am not waiting for the game to update, i am waiting for darkness falls to update. 

The best leveling system i have ever seen, was in the freeware rouglelight ELONA. You leveled up by doing, but you got skill points per level to put wherever you wanted, on top of perk points. 

Then there are some other logistical aspects that i think got missed. What makes shotguns op? they are  ammo that is not brass dependent. There are pois where you can get tons of paper, there are things that drop paper, so for the logistics of a shot gun, it's an ammo that you can make vs the bullets that will one day run out of brass. Arrows require feathers, but those are under the agility tree so if you do run out of brass for pistols, you can still have a very good weapon. 

I do miss the old system though, maybe they will change their minds and reconsider it? 

 

[Biscoitoso]

Yeah, darkness falls has this system, and as a result it is my go to for this game. am not waiting for the game to update, i am waiting for darkness falls to update. 

The best leveling system i have ever seen, was in the freeware rouglelight ELONA. You leveled up by doing, but you got skill points per level to put wherever you wanted, on top of perk points. 

Then there are some other logistical aspects that i think got missed. What makes shotguns op? they are  ammo that is not brass dependent. There are pois where you can get tons of paper, there are things that drop paper, so for the logistics of a shot gun, it's an ammo that you can make vs the bullets that will one day run out of brass. Arrows require feathers, but those are under the agility tree so if you do run out of brass for pistols, you can still have a very good weapon. 

I do miss the old system though, maybe they will change their minds and reconsider it? 

The best skill system I have seen was in Project Zomboid, there you can read books, but they dont give you skills, they just give a XP Boost to the learning. If you read a medicine book, you gain XP boost to medical skills. And all skills in this game are pratice skills.

 

[Ralathar44]

The best skill system I have seen was in Project Zomboid, there you can read books, but they dont give you skills, they just give a XP Boost to the learning. If you read a medicine book, you gain XP boost to medical skills. And all skills in this game are pratice skills.

I love everything about that game except playing it .  If it had all the same systems and etc but controlled and played more smoothly in the gameplay and UI I'd be all over that game.  Well, I WOULD mod the infection to have some hard to make cure.  That 1 scratch from a corpse on the ground around a blind corner ending your entire run if you get infected is uncool.

 

[Roland]

Not to mention that, in my view, the points spent purely to enhance attributes, are often wasted points. Sometimes I want to raise the Force tree just to be able to mine better, without pretending to use shotguns or clubs, and these points are of no use to me, because they give bonuses directly in skills that I never will use.

The points are never wasted. They are the cost of gaining the mining ability you desire. Why do you care that they also give benefits elsewhere?  
 

You would rather pay the same overall cost for Miner69 without any other side benefits being granted? Because if TFP were to separate out perks like Miner69 they would definitely keep the overall cost to progress the same as they are now when you go out of your preferred attribute. 
 

And what’s wrong with advancing strength to pay the cost of Miner69 and also as a side benefit knowing that if you happen to snag a shotgun sometime in the game you’ll have some extra skill with it?

 

[Laz Man]

Just another question... Are there good games out there with survival/rpg elements and a LBD skill system? 

None come to mind...the best hybrid LBD skill point system I've seen recently (apart from 7d2d) is bannerlord: mount and blade.  Last I played it was still very much unbalanced, especially at the higher game stage.

Increasing attritubes in that game would increase your hardcap on certain LBD skills while increasing focus points were ways to increase specific LBD skills faster (e.g. think multiplier).

Different tyoenof game though but an interesting hybrid implementation.

 

[Biscoitoso]

The points are never wasted. They are the cost of gaining the mining ability you desire. Why do you care that they also give benefits elsewhere?  
 

You would rather pay the same overall cost for Miner69 without any other side benefits being granted? Because if TFP were to separate out perks like Miner69 they would definitely keep the overall cost to progress the same as they are now when you go out of your preferred attribute. 
 

And what’s wrong with advancing strength to pay the cost of Miner69 and also as a side benefit knowing that if you happen to snag a shotgun sometime in the game you’ll have some extra skill with it?

I strong and totally disagree with you! Points spent without any direct benefit are WASTED points. And NO, I dont use shotguns, I dont like shotguns. I play as a grenadier using explosives, rocket launcher and m60. The atribute system is very unfair to me.

If you like mining and shotguns, then it is a great deal to you, cause EVERY single point you spent in your preferred tree will give you direct benefits. But others players like me who enjoy mining, but playing with other weapons than shotguns, will have a very slow progression. The atribute system is OK if you like play with "skill kits", but not ok if you dont like the pre made character sets.

The old LBD system with pre-requirement skills and levels was great. You can build your character like you want without need spent any useless points. And in the old versions of the game, like A-15 and A-16, I got myself more time playing with low tier and quality items before got some high end stuff. Now with this atribute system, I got end stuff very fast.

And yes, no matter what you say, I will tell you again: every point I spent, I want direct benefit, it is not fair to me be  punished just cause I dont want follow the pre made skills set.

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

Why did they move away from the old system? is there a thread on that? did they ever give a reason for that? 

 

[Roland]

Every point you spend does give a direct benefit. It pays the required cost for Miner69 and Motherlode. 
 

1 point for tier 1

3 points more for tier 2

4 points more for tier 3
etc

It’s the direct cost for the benefit you want. Instead of the level 2 perk itself costing 3 points, you pay two for strength plus 1 for Miner69 tier 2. 
 

 

[Noctoras]

Loot has always been directly tied to gamestage ever since there was gamestage. It was just a looser relationship than it was now. 

and as such gives you more moments of disappointment or joy, more emotion. 

Right now it's like opening a can of beans and finding beans inside. It's not a thrill, no excitment anymore, so I understand why people don't like this tight relationship as it currently is. 

 

[RipClaw]

Why did they move away from the old system? is there a thread on that? did they ever give a reason for that? 

As far as I know this is the first step to establish areas and POIs with different gamestages.

For example you go to a factory and this POI has a gamestage bonus of e.g. +50, which means you get loot that is better by +50 gamestages than what you get in the base POIs but you also have to deal with enemies that would show up 50 gamestages later.

There are also areas with different radiation levels planned so that you have to prepare yourself when entering an area with higher radiation.