PC How to fix unfair randomness in the game once and for all

Regardless, I still think (maybe I'm wrong but it's the impression I get) that people don't like RNG in general, hence why things like being able to craft virtually every item in the game was added, or buy from trader, bypassing RNG entirely.
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I like A17, but I don't like that you can craft everything. Assuming we get an influx of new items in A18 I predict this will not be the case in A18 anymore.

Actually it is a great example. I have zero Beakers (day 21, so I am close to where I could build a Chem Station). None of my traders have working Chem Stations and I have not found one on the map yet (4k map so I have explored a fair bit with no luck). Horde night #3 tonight and I cannot make gunpowder.
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Cirion's suggestion that you rushed XP gain and are now bitten by that stategy is quite on point :fat: . You played fast and loose without a safety net and now you got bitten without enough resources to adopt a different strategy.

Just as an anecdote, on our server we had a very relaxed evening with a day 56 horde (on standard difficulty though) because a few blade trape were too effective, we shut them down because we didn't get any zombies anymore to shoot at (I don't want to go into too much detail, there were other circumstances at play here).

I think that with enough time for preparation, a few blade traps, lots of barbed wire to slow down and dart traps to soften the zombies there is a good chance to kill the zombies with a bow. I would advise switching to a gun when you see a cop approaching (because he destroys the barbed wire if he explodes), but apart from that bows/crossbows do quite good damage. Sure, a minimum supply of gun ammo is needed, but unless you have only one trader on your map that can be bought (and scavenged).

 
That a RNG generates clusters of numbers usually means that it's working.
Humans often perceive such an uneven distribution as "not random" when the opposite is true. If something has a regular pattern... it's not random.
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To be honest, when the average person says "Random", what they typically mean is "varied" or "unpredictable". Not a true and rigid definition of "Random".

Most often developers provide a true random experience when random is applied, because, frankly, it's a crap load easier. However if developers in turn used the word "Chaotic" or something similar and then applied true Random behavior in its simplest form, people would be much more on the same page in discussing it.

 
And how many concrete blocks did you craft in this time ?How many Blocks you need to dig ?

And if you think 20 000 Blocks are much reconsider your meaning with a value of 300 000 upwards
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This was done with no auger. hate them, never use them. :)

 
This was done with no auger. hate them, never use them. :)

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I loved the 1 hit pickaxe in A15, in A16 i still used a edited pickaxe (made it onehit again)

Since A17 i (nearly) never used a Pickaxe, i dont like to feel hoaxed.

Btw.

Looks like a nice base

 
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having pop-n-pills right away in day 1 then having mostly all i need from one shop, nah i like to take hard chances . also having 10 box of something is not a reason to give you what you want right away, something like realistically having 10 boxes you ordered but none of them have X item . this doesnt mean if someone opens them he would find X at the last box :)

 
That a RNG generates clusters of numbers usually means that it's working.
Humans often perceive such an uneven distribution as "not random" when the opposite is true. If something has a regular pattern... it's not random.
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watching a spawn stream 6 fat mamma

or 6 nurses as a wandering horde

or 6 football players

Or having maxed out perks and equipment to boost loot finds and finding nothing, nothing, nothing, jar, nothing, jar, nothing, nothing ...

I'm not sure this is the sort fo random I associated with the word random

To which people respond "yeah, but that's RNG for you!" which, sure ... but the more improbable it is ... the more indicative that something isn't working right.

But apparently not random=working right, so I guess this explains why nothing is really random and I see identical results turning up in close proximity

 
And how many concrete blocks did you craft in this time ?How many Blocks you need to dig ?

And if you think 20 000 Blocks are much reconsider your meaning with a value of 300 000 upwards
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So the game needs to adapt to YOUR unreasonable needs in an unreasonable amount of time that you specify?

When you are ready to have a serious discussion about this we are here for you.

 
So the game needs to adapt to YOUR unreasonable needs in an unreasonable amount of time that you specify?
When you are ready to have a serious discussion about this we are here for you.
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No idea how big the part of the Building focused player is. But i guess its safe to say that i am not alone

 
What magic is rhis?

Implement the pseudo random distribution:
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Pseudo_Random_Distribution

It was a core mechanic for games like warcraft and diablo when some chances to find an item or activate a stun buff were too random and were either broken or sometimes never occurred. A lot of games use this mechanic to fix balance issues and provide a certainty in uncertain seeds .

For 7 days to die it can be implemented in at least two ways:

In loot: Say a beaker has a 1 every 10 chances to drop from a medical cabin. With simple random distribution the item sometimes appear multiple times and sometimes doesn't appear at all. By applying random distribution the chances to find the item slowly increase until it is either found or the item reaches 100% . Afterwards it resets back to 10%.

On damage buffs : Say there is a 20% chance for stun to take effect when you strike with heavy or clubbed power attacks . Sometimes it activates a lot of times consecutively but sometimes it doesn't activate for long periods of time making it unreliable. By applying pseudo random distribution you make absolutely certain thato on average 1 every 5 attacks is going to stun.

Pseudo random distribution mostly fixes chances for items and buffs BUT it has the capability to come in handy in random world generation as well : From chances to create zombies ,to how many number of ores can exist at a certain level ,how many animals is a city allowed to have and even the chances for hordes to appear every time you create noise.

I would personally be very happy if it was at least applied to items and weapon buffs.

The only downside is it needs to keep a track of previous randomness (it has memory) so that might be a little tough for the developers ,but in my opinion the pros outweigh the cons.
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GAZZ? This sounds like something you have experience with?

 
@Joe. Blow

It's simply not a new idea.

A random function is a function and a seed. No more, no less.

Another way to describe it is that you keep using the same seed for the same item instead of rolling all items from the same seed or from a changing seed like time.

If you keep doing that, the function will be not random at all but generate the same _series_ of rolls / chances every time, again and again.

That is perfect for those players who have one perfect progression plan because they know they will - for instance - get 2 beakers within the first 13 medicine type loot containers.

It sucks for replay-ability because it's the same game every time.

 
@Joe. Blow
It's simply not a new idea.

A random function is a function and a seed. No more, no less.

Another way to describe it is that you keep using the same seed for the same item instead of rolling all items from the same seed or from a changing seed like time.

If you keep doing that, the function will be not random at all but generate the same _series_ of rolls / chances every time, again and again.

That is perfect for those players who have one perfect progression plan because they know they will - for instance - get 2 beakers within the first 13 medicine type loot containers.

It sucks for replay-ability because it's the same game every time.
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I guess our tastes are completely different then.

I personally love the predictability in creating my base . In A16.4 I loved how I could go to certain locations ,find leather and craft myself a forge day 1~2. Now this has changed by adding a level gate . It is not predictable when will I hit level 10 anymore ,plus it's tedious .

Furthermore Madmole said a few days ago players used to hate not being able to create a forge in the past. Sometimes they couldn't find the recipe for weeks.

So how is that different when someone cannot find two beakers for a chemistry station or a battery for battery bank or sometimes even engines when trying to build mega structures and generate electricity? I don't suppose you expect people to keep finding gas barrels and cars forever to gain fuel for their mega bases? Or is building and crafting said structures not part of the plan?

 
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I guess our tastes are completely different then.
I personally love the predictability in creating my base . In A16.4 I loved how I could go to certain locations ,find leather and craft myself a forge day 1~2. Now this has changed by adding a level gate . It is not predictable when will I hit level 10 anymore ,plus it's tedious .

Furthermore Madmole said a few days ago players used to hate not being able to create a forge in the past. Sometimes they couldn't find the recipe for weeks.

So how is that different when someone cannot find two beakers for a chemistry station or a battery for battery bank or sometimes even engines when trying to build mega structures and generate electricity? I don't suppose you expect people to keep finding gas barrels and cars forever to gain fuel for their mega bases? Or is building and crafting said structures not part of the plan?
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I'm not sure I can ever truly understand how it can be enjoyable to play a game where every path is laid out for you and everything is a guarantee. This is a survival game. Part of the element to survival IS the randomness. Having to overcome a different situation each time, or having to adapt to new scenarios.

The game itself has already veered so off the the RNG track i couldn't possibly see how now making things a guarantee in loot would extend the playability or the fun of the game. At a certain point this no longer becomes a realistic request but more a matter of just using creative to spawn in whatever you want whenever you want. Which in your own game is fine, do so. But if this game were to ever be designed in such a manner where going out to loot and reloot pois becomes non essential it will surely be the death toll for it.

Thankfully with the addition of the books it looks like we are moving AWAY from bough based perks and giving those who love the unt some more content so I imagine things like this pseudo RNG (which is surely contributing to the slow death of WoW and Diablo both) will become a non issue.

 
It sucks for replay-ability because it's the same game every time.
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What? You mean exactly like the entire A17 perk system??

I think the best pseudo-random is the one where the chance increases each time it fails to happen. So if I have 1% to get a Beaker from loot sources that can have a Beaker, then each time I loot one of those sources, the chance for a Beaker increases by 1% until I get one or it finally hits 100%, whichever comes first. Then it resets back to 1%. Simple.

 
It is not predictable when will I hit level 10 anymore ,plus it's tedious .
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What is your requirement? Do you want to predict the exact minute you hit level 10 and is that really necessary? Wouldn't it be ok to just predict the day plus minus 1? Wouldn't that be enough for making plans?

 
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Why are people insisting on having everything NOW! Being unable to find an item is not a cause for boredom or quitting. It makes you reevaluate how to proceed and challenges you to work around the problem.

Bows work well with stealth and are effective even late game as long as noise is controlled. I only use guns in an emergency and have never needed to buy/make ammo for them. Playing dead is dead I rarely get above lv 100 and enjoy the challenge new random gen brings( when the fix arrives!).

If you must have everything immediately, please use creative and dont try to force another banal change on us. If every single challenge ends up in an ammo/ beaker / whatever youre missing today fest and you dont have to find anything the game just ends up a building sim. You do not need auger/beaker/ whatever to progress, its become a case of "i cant be arsed to look for it, so just gimme!" Enjoy what challenge there is before its all gone!

 
Why are people insisting on having everything NOW! Being unable to find an item is not a cause for boredom or quitting. It makes you reevaluate how to proceed and challenges you to work around the problem. Bows work well with stealth and are effective even late game as long as noise is controlled. I only use guns in an emergency and have never needed to buy/make ammo for them. Playing dead is dead I rarely get above lv 100 and enjoy the challenge new random gen brings( when the fix arrives!).

If you must have everything immediately, please use creative and dont try to force another banal change on us. If every single challenge ends up in an ammo/ beaker / whatever youre missing today fest and you dont have to find anything the game just ends up a building sim. You do not need auger/beaker/ whatever to progress, its become a case of "i cant be arsed to look for it, so just gimme!" Enjoy what challenge there is before its all gone!
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Sorry, please explain me where the challenge is in having luck or not ?

Is it not the Opposite ?

By making it all luck dependent your actions as player are 100% void on the Question if you succeed ?

 
Sorry, please explain me where the challenge is in having luck or not ?
Is it not the Opposite ?

By making it all luck dependent your actions as player are 100% void on the Question if you succeed ?
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It changes on how you have to succeed. Not if.

Cheers

 
Sorry, please explain me where the challenge is in having luck or not ?
Is it not the Opposite ?

By making it all luck dependent your actions as player are 100% void on the Question if you succeed ?
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The challenge is in overcoming the bad luck when you have it with sheer willpower and determination.

For example, with your actions of looting the entire map or checking every trader on every restock (after you beat the challenge of finding them all)

There would be no challenge at all in knowing for sure you will get the drop/unlock whenever you loot x number of crates, or hit x level. Clicking "examine" x number of times to get a guaranteed drop is no challenge.

You are asking "Where is the challenge in hunting and cooking my food? Isnt there more challenge in having the chef hand it to me?"

 
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Why are people insisting on having everything NOW! Being unable to find an item is not a cause for boredom or quitting. It makes you reevaluate how to proceed and challenges you to work around the problem. Bows work well with stealth and are effective even late game as long as noise is controlled.
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Successfully dealt with a GS 300+ horde night on high difficulty with a Bow have you? (without exploiting the AI ofc)

The item of contention here is the Beaker. Nothing else. No Beaker = no ammo other than what you can loot or what the trader sells you, which is a pitiful amount either way.

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There would be no challenge at all in knowing for sure you will get the drop/unlock whenever you loot x number of crates, or hit x level. Clicking "examine" x number of times to get a guaranteed drop is no challenge.
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For the Beaker there would be since there are a very limited number of loot sources that can actually drop it. Finding sufficient numbers of those sources would itself become the challenge.

 
The item of contention here is the Beaker. Nothing else. No Beaker = no ammo other than what you can loot or what the trader sells you, which is a pitiful amount either way.

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For the Beaker there would be since there are a very limited number of loot sources that can actually drop it. Finding sufficient numbers of those sources would itself become the challenge.
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I wish more things were still like the beaker personally. I have never had a problem finding them. And no, you can still make gunpowder. Just takes more mats. Or buying from trader ammo/gunpowder/nitrate/coal, all are available there.

When I get bad luck I go and hunt them down in every possible way until I have them, If it is a priority for you all the tools to get them are there. People that cant find them for "bad luck" are not trying hard enough tbh.

As far as limited sources, it would be nice if they put back medicine cabinets in large POIs and houses (hotels ect) I remember them saying a long time ago the medicine cabinets would be reworked and put back in, but havent seen or heard anything since.

 
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