PC How to fix unfair randomness in the game once and for all

Actually it is a great example. I have zero Beakers (day 21, so I am close to where I could build a Chem Station). None of my traders have working Chem Stations and I have not found one on the map yet (4k map so I have explored a fair bit with no luck). Horde night #3 tonight and I cannot make gunpowder.


You don't play on high difficulties do you??

A play through with no way to make bullets would be unique, I'll give you that. Fulfilling and enjoyable? I doubt it. They added Tool and Die set to trader inventory to make sure the player could always have one, Beakers need to be next, for exactly the same reasons.

I am the first player to sit here and scream that I hate the new perk system precisely because it gives you the same items at the same level every play through. I hate that. I hate that it destroys replay-ability and makes every run pre-ordained, bland and the same.

Yet not for Beakers. Having Beakers as the one item in the game that cannot be made and must be found doesn't work, for two simple reasons:

1) Too much relies on Beakers. You cannot make bullets AT ALL without them because you cannot make Gunpowder. Without the ability to make bullets you CANNOT survive horde nights on difficulties beyond Nomad without exploiting the AI. You simply cannot. And I refuse the exploit the AI and never will.

2) beaker drop rate is extremely low, and it can only drop from a scant few loot sources. It's the perfect storm of bad RNG.

They absolutely need to add Beakers to the trader inventory, pretty much as a guaranteed item. Make them cost 20k if you must but they need to be buy-able.
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I'd much rather have items like beakers have a very hard recipe or a high cost from the trader than be RNG. Like you say it's an essential item. I don't mind it taking work to get but make it a sure thing. I'll grind a million dukes happily rather than searching an entire map and hoping for the best. RNG is frustrating I find. Having a high bar gives me hope and a sense of progress at least.

 
On a map with only a few Pois and no loot respawn it means you start a new game ?
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I have never seen that problem with the exception of 17.2. And I got lucky to find a good seed first try on 17.2. I dont think they intend to have maps with few poi's.

I dont play no loot respawn but I have never had to loot for things on respawn like beakers, books. RWG has always been sufficient in the past to find what I need on the map the first time. But I have no issue with going nomad on the entire map until I get what I need, then settle down somewhere.

Really though, there is no predicting how it will be when the finish working on RWG. There is issues like smaller maps, POI distribution. So I can see how some people might have a tough time right now.

In my current 17.2 playthrough I found a couple Pop-n-Pills while exploring, got 2 beakers from tier quests, found another in a weird loot container (I think it was a backpack or something) so on day 27 I have 7 beakers.

I mean they arent even as rare as they used to be. I think bringing back the old medicine cabinets would help people have even more chances at it. Those were apparently being re-textured or something and suppose to be back in, but I havent heard about them since.

 
I wish more things were still like the beaker personally.
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I actually do too.....for every item *except* the Beaker. It's just too important. You can't have "an interesting play-though with unique challenges" without a Beaker. Your run is over basically (assuming a difficulty higher than Nomad, and assuming you are not prepared to cheese the AI on horde night).

And no, you can still make gunpowder. Just takes more mats. Or buying from trader ammo/gunpowder/nitrate/coal, all are available there.
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You still need one Beaker to make gunpowder without a Chem Station. I have none. And no Chem Stations at my traders either.

When I get bad luck I go and hunt them down in every possible way until I have them, If it is a priority for you all the tools to get them are there. People that cant find them for "bad luck" are not trying hard enough tbh.
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What like search every Poppin'Pills on the map, including going right back to each and every one of them on a 10 day loot respawn). You think I haven't tried that??

 
Yes, and start a map with loot respawn turned on.
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So the intention of RNG gate essentials is to offer inique gameplays.

And by doing that it disallow settings that make a gameplay really diferent ?

I really dont know why i still discuss it, because i solved it for myself with a mod. But as some here know i like to change the gamerules for each of my gameplays. And all i know is that the current system says

* If you need a decent auger you are forced to specialize in Intelligence

* If you want to play on a (small) map with a low amount of pois you are forced to play with enabled respawn.

* If you want vehicles you are forced to specialize in Intelligence

* + a few more

Or you simply use my mod that warrant you these essentials and you can play as you wish. All you need is one trader on the map for the quests.

With that you can play Int 1/10 Character, on a small map with 100 Pois at all and with no respawn and no airdrops.

And as nice sideeffect, your outcome is comparable to others and not only luck

 
... I don't suppose you expect people to keep finding gas barrels and cars forever to gain fuel for their mega bases? Or is building and crafting said structures not part of the plan?
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With this, have you ever explored the oil station POI? I don't remember the exact name, but the word "Oil" is in it.

You might want to explore that. :)

 
I actually do too.....for every item *except* the Beaker. It's just too important. You can't have "an interesting play-though with unique challenges" without a Beaker. Your run is over basically (assuming a difficulty higher than Nomad, and assuming you are not prepared to cheese the AI on horde night).


You still need one Beaker to make gunpowder without a Chem Station. I have none. And no Chem Stations at my traders either.

What like search every Poppin'Pills on the map, including going right back to each and every one of them on a 10 day loot respawn). You think I haven't tried that??
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Wait, did they change it recently? Used to be you could craft gunpowder right in your inventory, no beaker needed.

I cant remember ever making it all the way through 3 Pop-n-pills without finding at least 1 beaker. Again though, you would have infinitely more chances if they put the med-cabinets back into apts and motels and such.

What about medical supply thingys in the new POIs. and they have med cabinets, I would think that it would take you way more than 20something days to loot every poi that has those? You tried questing? they drop from there too.

 
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I feel like your blowing it out of proportion too. You can get all the ammo you need from traders just wrenching cars and crafting tools. Since a17 I have not felt much pressure to get chem station at all. Even if you really are as incredibly unlucky as you say, you arent stuck.

 
I think the main problem here is the varying playstyles people tend to choose. We could argue what everyone likes more, randomness or expected (to some extent) results, but the point is however you choose your game settings, you CAN be screwed with randomness.

People will see bad luck or good luck, because their minds make false assumptions. Considering though the worst possible randomness - it is possible to loot every poi on map and visit every trader countless times to not get a beaker. For some not finding it is a breaking point, but like someone said, its a matter of choosing what to do in that playthrough. When you are far enough, counting on getting the beaker, but can't change your skills or get different equipment, there is not much you can do except keep looking.

That is the real issue with randomness - you don't have much workaround when you count on random chance giving you essentials. Is beaker an essential? It does block part of the gameplay, similarly like the forge, but forge usage can be worked around.

 
If you truly feel like you are completely stuck and this constitutes a design flaw then open the cm and give yourself a beaker. You're entitled. This is a game still in development and it is reasonable to except things to break and you never get a beaker.

 
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If you truly feel like you are completely stuck and this constitutes a design flaw then open the cm and give yourself a beaker. You're entitled. This is a game still in development and it is reasonable to except things to break and you never get a beaker.
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Personally, and this is just me, but I love and hate it. We hit something like day 60 before we saw a beaker. Hitting up POIs, treasures, supply drops, and multiple traders, we just could never, ever find one. We've had games like like in earleir versions, too, and then played another game and found one in the first car we've searched.

Needing TWO beakers for a bench can be crippling for a long period of time and necessitate that you find a bench somewhere in the world to use, and I HATES IT ... and yet I LOVES IT too.

 
Personally, and this is just me, but I love and hate it. We hit something like day 60 before we saw a beaker. Hitting up POIs, treasures, supply drops, and multiple traders, we just could never, ever find one. We've had games like like in earleir versions, too, and then played another game and found one in the first car we've searched.
Needing TWO beakers for a bench can be crippling for a long period of time and necessitate that you find a bench somewhere in the world to use, and I HATES IT ... and yet I LOVES IT too.
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You may NOT give yourself a beaker from the cm. Disqualified by your attitude. ;)

 
You may NOT give yourself a beaker from the cm. Disqualified by your attitude. ;)
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LOL, fair!

The whole "holy heck, where are the beakers!!!???" is totally worth it when you eventually go "OMG! HE HAS A BEAKER! BUY IT! BUY IT!"

 
LOL, fair!
The whole "holy heck, where are the beakers!!!???" is totally worth it when you eventually go "OMG! HE HAS A BEAKER! BUY IT! BUY IT!"
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This was my reaction to my first pair of nerd glasses at the trader.

 
If you are never in a position to feel frustrated by the RNG then you also will never feel overjoyed finding what you need. It would be like riding a roller coaster that was completely flat the entire time. Alpha 17 already feels too predictable for an open world survival game.

 
If you are never in a position to feel frustrated by the RNG then you also will never feel overjoyed finding what you need. It would be like riding a roller coaster that was completely flat the entire time. Alpha 17 already feels too predictable for an open world survival game.
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This guy gets it. Sure you remove the problem of OCCASIONALLY (and I mean OCCASIONALLY) truly not getting the loot you need (which btw I have my doubts, because I NEVER have problems getting anything in any of my games... I do not know how people are so unlucky?) but like you said, you trade that for a boring predictable game.

I will say the beakers were the last thing I got in my last game, but it really didn't bother me at all. Certainly not like it seems to be bothering others here.

 
This guy gets it. Sure you remove the problem of OCCASIONALLY (and I mean OCCASIONALLY) truly not getting the loot you need (which btw I have my doubts, because I NEVER have problems getting anything in any of my games... I do not know how people are so unlucky?) but like you said, you trade that for a boring predictable game.
I will say the beakers were the last thing I got in my last game, but it really didn't bother me at all. Certainly not like it seems to be bothering others here.
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I'm not a fan of having loot handed to us to be sure, but in one Alpha, back when we had Calipers still, it was Day 137 before I found my first one.

The trick to making RNG "acceptable" (for lack of a better word), is not to gate anything too essential behind it - that was always my concern about the "Forge Ahead" book, particularly if there's no workarounds.

I think right now the game is actually in a very good spot with it's RNG, indeed, my concern with it now would be there's too much that is craftable (or obtainable from traders), and not enough purely dependent on the loot hunt.

 
Speaking as someone who plays Roguelike games, not knowing whether you'll find something on day 1 or day 101 is part of the appeal of having random game elements.

Fudging the RNG so that it is no longer random but instead enforces smooth distributions would be a terrible move, as it would take a lot of the variation out of multiple plays.

 
I think right now the game is actually in a very good spot with it's RNG, indeed, my concern with it now would be there's too much that is craftable (or obtainable from traders), and not enough purely dependent on the loot hunt.
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Yah, it's all become REALLY dependable.

The forge is pretty reasonable as a perk unlock. Workbench to a degree.

The first 2 vehicles? Definitely. Vehicles 3+? I see no problem with some RNG in there...

Chem station? By the time you get into mass production of firearm ammo you already have alternatives and the means to explore so... not that critical.

 
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