Roland
Community Moderator
Nothing about this forum could have been said that was more true.
oh...you were talking about the game. That’s tiers.
PC How soon do you expect to see better than primitive loot?
- Thread starter Reckis
- Start date
oh...you were talking about the game. That’s tiers.
Noctoras
New member
Nope. The problem is again level gating. You only get certain books with a certain level. Not cool, but that's the present state of affairs
Boidster
New member
Edit to add: Noctoras was referring to both schematics and perk books (see below) and schematics are scaled by gamestage. The below only applies to perk books.
This is not true. The only place in loot.xml where individual books appear is in this loot group, which has all of the books and no scaling (every book is equally likely):
<lootgroup name="perkBooks">
<item name="bookRangersArrowRecovery"/>
<item name="bookRangersCripplingShot"/>
<item name="bookRangersKnockdown"/>
<item name="bookRangersFlamingArrows"/>
....this goes on for the entire list of books...
<item name="bookTechJunkie5Repulsor"/>
<item name="bookTechJunkie6BatonCharge"/>
<item name="bookTechJunkie7Hydraulics"/>
</lootgroup>
Additionally, every container or lootgroup where the "perkBooks" lootgroup is used has a fixed probability, not one based on gamestage. So it's not even more likely as you go up in gamestage to find books. Every container that might contain books has a fixed probability for finding them. And once RNG chooses "perkBooks" as the group to use, each book is equally likely regardless of gamestage.
Mailbox example below.
The mailbox container looks like this:
<lootcontainer id="14" count="0,2">
<item group="booksAllScaled" prob="0.2"/>
<item name="resourcePaper" prob="0.8" count="1,10"/>
</lootcontainer>
Since the prob values add up to 1.0 it's easy: 20% chance for books, 80% chance for paper. (It may also be empty, or provide double-loot, but % split between paper & books will be the same). But wait! It says booksAllScaled so HA! it must be scaled to gamestage! Nope. The name there is misleading (at least in A19.0). All probabilities in the "scaled" group are fixed:
<lootgroup name="booksAllScaled">
<item group="perkBooks" prob="133"/>
<item group="schematicsModsAndGeneralCommon" prob="60"/>
<item group="schematicsToolsCommon" prob="7"/>
<item group="schematicsWeaponsArmorCommon" prob="36"/>
<item group="schematicsVehiclesCommon" prob="10"/>
<item group="schematicsElectrical" prob="13"/>
<item group="groupQuestChallenge" prob="10"/>
</lootgroup>
That works out to a 49.4% chance of getting something from the perkBooks list. Since there are 133 books in the list, the chance for each is 0.75%. And but so, the final odds are:
Chance for getting a book (any book) = 80% x 49.4% = 39.5%
Chance for getting a particular book = 80% x 49.4% x 0.75% = 0.3%
<lootcontainer id="14" count="0,2">
<item group="booksAllScaled" prob="0.2"/>
<item name="resourcePaper" prob="0.8" count="1,10"/>
</lootcontainer>
Since the prob values add up to 1.0 it's easy: 20% chance for books, 80% chance for paper. (It may also be empty, or provide double-loot, but % split between paper & books will be the same). But wait! It says booksAllScaled so HA! it must be scaled to gamestage! Nope. The name there is misleading (at least in A19.0). All probabilities in the "scaled" group are fixed:
<lootgroup name="booksAllScaled">
<item group="perkBooks" prob="133"/>
<item group="schematicsModsAndGeneralCommon" prob="60"/>
<item group="schematicsToolsCommon" prob="7"/>
<item group="schematicsWeaponsArmorCommon" prob="36"/>
<item group="schematicsVehiclesCommon" prob="10"/>
<item group="schematicsElectrical" prob="13"/>
<item group="groupQuestChallenge" prob="10"/>
</lootgroup>
That works out to a 49.4% chance of getting something from the perkBooks list. Since there are 133 books in the list, the chance for each is 0.75%. And but so, the final odds are:
Chance for getting a book (any book) = 80% x 49.4% = 39.5%
Chance for getting a particular book = 80% x 49.4% x 0.75% = 0.3%
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auto correct strikes again, but I guess it was still correctNothing about this forum could have been said that was more true.
oh...you were talking about the game. That’s tiers.
less than week
yeah wellthats quantity issue ... when you loot three shovels from one box .... this one should get better when they add primitive guns .. i think people see them as useless mostly because they cant be sold .. unlike normal loot and scraping them gives almost nothing as well
because wooden bow belongs to same tier as pistol, magnum, AK or iron tools
yeah guess transition should be little bit earlier but with alot lower chance as well slowly ioncreasing now we are quite flooded by iron tools when we reach high enough GS
hmm problem is ... q6 is 50% better than q1 (or 40%? doesnt matter) amd every mod slto adds 6% so another 18% tmaking q1 wooden bow better than q6 primitive would require huge gap between tiers stat wise
and primitive bow feels quite bad even now honestly we would be better with just wooden + compound
wooden and primitive have same low accuracy and projectile speed .. it kinda feels like someone forced in another bow withou actual place for it
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Noctoras
New member
Sorry, I was considering recipes as books, my bad for not expressing myself adequately, which also goes for my previous answer
Boidster
New member
I see, sorry. I updated my post above. You're right that schematics are scaled by gamestage.
Tmodloader
New member
Huh I thought I read somewhere schematics and books were not gamestage scaled. That being said I have a current run on day 60 and have never seen a forge schematic, is that primitive loot that I likely passed?
Boidster
New member
Books no, schematics yes.
To continue the mailbox example above, there is a 20% to pull from this group:
<lootgroup name="booksAllScaled">
<item group="perkBooks" prob="133"/>
<item group="schematicsModsAndGeneralCommon" prob="60"/>
<item group="schematicsToolsCommon" prob="7"/>
<item group="schematicsWeaponsArmorCommon" prob="36"/>
<item group="schematicsVehiclesCommon" prob="10"/>
<item group="schematicsElectrical" prob="13"/>
<item group="groupQuestChallenge" prob="10"/>
</lootgroup>
Each of those has a fixed probability to choose the group, but once you dive into a group - say "schematicsToolsCommon" - you might see this:
<lootgroup name="schematicsToolsCommon">
<item group="schematicsToolsT0"/>
<item group="schematicsToolsT1" loot_prob_template="ProbT1"/>
<item group="schematicsToolsT2" loot_prob_template="ProbT2"/>
</lootgroup>
The T0 stuff isn't scaled so that group counts as 1.0 when calculating probability. The others - T1 and T2 - are going to have probabilities based on standard GS-scaled T1 and T2 probability tables. Whatever results come from the T1/T2 prob tables will be combined with the 1.0 for T0 and then final probability can be determined.
For example, at GS 100, it works out to 73% chance for something from the T0 list (which includes the Forge schematic), 24.1% chance for something in the T1 list, and 2.9% chance for a T2 item. Within the T0/T1/T2 groups, all items are equally likely.
Have faith, you can still find one! The "schematicsToolsT0" loot group where it lives is never used with a GS-scaled probability template. So it's always an option. As well, within destroyed forges the schematic has a flat 20% chance to pop up.
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guardianangelmp
New member
I could, but I won't, cause you couldn't pay me enough to do that job.You refer to the "in shotgun messiah" part? Oh, come on, you still were saying you open safes as well (with just lockpicks or a stone axe and no experience in safe cracking) and that is the unbelievable part, right?
Could you please also correct my punctuation while you're at it.
Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
I dunno, I've felt the loot provides me upgrades and the dupes blunderbuss are useful early on for multi shot and for selling to trader. I play 60 minute days so leveling/looting hasn't felt to grindy to me. Apart from wpns and tools the mods that show up are quite nice as well.
Stingerwolf
New member
Wait, wrenches are steel, aren't they? Is this why, at Day 35, I have yet to find a single wrench?
Boidster
New member
No, wrenches count as Tier 1 tools, and they can be found in some containers (e.g. sinks) with no scaling to game stage. If my loot database is not lying to me, there are five containers which can produce a wrench with no GS-scaled probabilities (the lines without "ProbT1" in them):
Query1
blockname
tblLootGroupItems.lootprobtemplatename
cntGraniteSink
cntCabinetOldSink
cntLootCrateConstructionSupplies
ProbT1
cntLootCrateCarParts
ProbT1
cntCollapsedWorkbench
ProbT1
cntRollingToolBoxClosed
cntToolBoxClosed
cntStoreShelfSingleBottomHardware01
Could be more than that; there is a lot of groups-within-groups going on and I'm not sure I covered all of the paths. But you get the idea.
Stingerwolf
New member
Thanks Boidster. With no Trader in my world , I'm totally reliant on searching for items. I was unaware of the new loot progression but it's beginning to explain why I'm getting the same low-level stuff over and over again. 35 days - no wrenches, 2 blunderbusses, one pistol on day 30, very first Bow part today. The struggle is real.
wrenches drop early, even with the new loot progression. you are just having really really bad luck.
Keep hitting the kitchen and bathroom sinks as often as you can. I usually target a small apartment building or something like that when i am on the hunt with close to 100% success.
Boidster
New member
That's amazing. Amazingly bad. Definitely search every single sink and toolbox you find! Usually I make kitchen sinks a very high-priority loot item for the first few days or until I get a cooking pot and wrench. I don't think I've ever gone past day 3 or 4 without a wrench (though I do play on 120 minute days, which helps).
(Edit: in other words, what @katarynna said!)
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Kattla
New member
In A19 they are iron tools, and can be crafted fairly cheap. Might require a point in salvage operations and some mechanical parts, can't quite remember.
Stingerwolf
New member
Thanks guys. I do this too, pots and wrenches are highest priority for me in the early part of the game. I've been pulling apart sinks, cracking every crate I could find I've got nada. I've been playing this game since Alpha 8 or 9 and I've never had this much trouble. I play at 75% loot but that's never been an issue previously. I'm wondering if my game is borked seeing as there's no Trader on my map either
100% of primitive loot feels absolutely completely worthless.
I should be crafting blunderbusses, not finding five of them in the same building, and stone tools are... they strain SoD (who put this stone hammer inside this Working Stiff crate?) and generally useless.
Any tools you care about, you can make decent quality versions by the end of the second day.
Give us more crafting parts for basic low-tier weapons instead, or just chunks of forged iron.
Edit: To answer the op directly, I want to see better look (or rather, different loot) on minute one.
Stone axes could be a drop in specific types of container (survivor backpacks or such) but they have absolutely no place being on the standard loot-table.
What an absolute waste of a Loot-crate or a supply-drop.
Edit: If pipe-guns existed (besides the blunderbuss) it wouldn't be too bad.
Blunderbuss is a fine weapon, a pipe-pistol or a pipe-rifle would be perfectly serviceable (if still weird to find inside a shotgun messiah)
But there aren't, so you'll get four primitive bows, a stone-sledge and six stone axes from one looting trip, and you'll scrap every single one of them because you made yourself one of each during the tutorial.
For tools, I'd suggest a whole other tier that sits between stone and iron.
"Scrap"
Jury-rigged metal tools, pre-forge but after you've had a chance to do some looting and collect some scrap-iron from a car or two.
Much less weird to find on some dead-guy. He'd properly look like a post-apocalyptic scavenger, rather than a stupid caveman.
I should be crafting blunderbusses, not finding five of them in the same building, and stone tools are... they strain SoD (who put this stone hammer inside this Working Stiff crate?) and generally useless.
Any tools you care about, you can make decent quality versions by the end of the second day.
Give us more crafting parts for basic low-tier weapons instead, or just chunks of forged iron.
Edit: To answer the op directly, I want to see better look (or rather, different loot) on minute one.
Stone axes could be a drop in specific types of container (survivor backpacks or such) but they have absolutely no place being on the standard loot-table.
What an absolute waste of a Loot-crate or a supply-drop.
Edit: If pipe-guns existed (besides the blunderbuss) it wouldn't be too bad.
Blunderbuss is a fine weapon, a pipe-pistol or a pipe-rifle would be perfectly serviceable (if still weird to find inside a shotgun messiah)
But there aren't, so you'll get four primitive bows, a stone-sledge and six stone axes from one looting trip, and you'll scrap every single one of them because you made yourself one of each during the tutorial.
For tools, I'd suggest a whole other tier that sits between stone and iron.
"Scrap"
Jury-rigged metal tools, pre-forge but after you've had a chance to do some looting and collect some scrap-iron from a car or two.
Much less weird to find on some dead-guy. He'd properly look like a post-apocalyptic scavenger, rather than a stupid caveman.
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