PC How do I put this?...Rollback please?!?!?! FUN PIMPS! Whyyyyyy?!?!?!

[Kalen]

Or make them introductory quest rewards

Nah, I think this is another problem with the modern version of the game.... its way too deterministic. Every game is basically the same, you're going to get the weapons you want, you're going to get the work stations you need, you're going to get vehicles in a specific order... there is no randomness. In older versions of the game, you never knew what you were going to get. It might take days before you find the book to unlock the forge or you might get lucky and find a high quality weapon, one that you weren't intending to use, early on.... things like this impacted the direction your game took as you adapted to your luck (whether good or bad). The modern game is missing this emergent game play and is weaker for it, in my opinion.

 

[Krougal]

Nah, I think this is another problem with the modern version of the game.... its way too deterministic. Every game is basically the same, you're going to get the weapons you want, you're going to get the work stations you need, you're going to get vehicles in a specific order... there is no randomness. In older versions of the game, you never knew what you were going to get. It might take days before you find the book to unlock the forge or you might get lucky and find a high quality weapon, one that you weren't intending to use, early on.... things like this impacted the direction your game took as you adapted to your luck (whether good or bad). The modern game is missing this emergent game play and is weaker for it, in my opinion.

Yeah, it has become very rigid. You know how the map is going to be too. I know it was ditched for technical and performance reasons, but there is no sense of wonder & exploration like it was when it was generated on the fly.

 

[Tay1372]

Nah, I think this is another problem with the modern version of the game.... its way too deterministic. Every game is basically the same, you're going to get the weapons you want, you're going to get the work stations you need, you're going to get vehicles in a specific order... there is no randomness. In older versions of the game, you never knew what you were going to get. It might take days before you find the book to unlock the forge or you might get lucky and find a high quality weapon, one that you weren't intending to use, early on.... things like this impacted the direction your game took as you adapted to your luck (whether good or bad). The modern game is missing this emergent game play and is weaker for it, in my opinion.

Kalen's comment is very interesting. I've only been playing 7DTD for a couple of months, so I never experienced what they describe. I think this comment hits the nail on the head of what has made this game fun, but not (for me) as immersive as it could be. Admittedly I only play with enemy spawning off so I don't have to worry about zombies. But the fact that everything is in a certain order... whether you craft them and use them or not, you don't get the minibike until you've got the bicycle. You can't get the workstation until you've got the forge etc.. does make things rather predictable.

I can see the logic behind this, especially for new players to learn the game and how things work, but for the joy of being surprised, I think it would have been good to have experienced the randomness of what you got.

I also think it's odd that we can't repair things. For instance, you take over a house or building that contains a workstation but you have to build a new workstation rather than repair the existing one. Was this ever possible in older versions?

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Was this ever possible in older versions

From what I've heard and seen, workstations in the wild were once fully functional. I gather they were "destroyed" because it made it far too easy to craft everything you'd ever possibly need for a day 21 or so horde by day 2 or 3. Of course, you can still do that if you you're a min-maxer and/or run around like a chicken with its head cut off for the first few days.

 

[meganoth]

Nah, I think this is another problem with the modern version of the game.... its way too deterministic. Every game is basically the same, you're going to get the weapons you want, you're going to get the work stations you need, you're going to get vehicles in a specific order... there is no randomness. In older versions of the game, you never knew what you were going to get. It might take days before you find the book to unlock the forge or you might get lucky and find a high quality weapon, one that you weren't intending to use, early on.... things like this impacted the direction your game took as you adapted to your luck (whether good or bad). The modern game is missing this emergent game play and is weaker for it, in my opinion.

This is a direct result from crafting now being the fastest way to get almost anything. If the deterministic way (crafting) is faster than the random way the random way is useless. And the progression at least becomes deterministic as well. I hope they'll notice this and patch it again. But naturally lots of crafting-fans will protest again, it is a delicate balance that has to be found.

In many earlier alphas looting was too strong because you could find better equipment too often. With how often people were looting they were almost guaranteed to find the better stuff before being able to craft it. Even worse, the trader has been too strong since its inception. Together that made crafting the loser by a too large margin. This has changed though, now crafting is (a little) too strong

Maybe just reducing the number of magazines found in mailboxes could help a lot here.

Also making the range of weapons/armors you can loot a little higher again could give looting a much needed boost. But it doesn't need much, especially it doesn't need a chance to find an end-game weapon in the first days. You may have romantic memories of the one find of an end-game weapon on day 3, but you usually don't remember that it made the rest of that game so trivial you stopped playing that game after week 3

 

[EvilPolygons]

This is a direct result from crafting now being the fastest way to get almost anything. If the deterministic way (crafting) is faster than the random way the random way is useless. And the progression at least becomes deterministic as well. I hope they'll notice this and patch it again. But naturally lots of crafting-fans will protest again, it is a delicate balance that has to be found.

In many earlier alphas looting was too strong because you could find better equipment too often. With how often people were looting they were almost guaranteed to find the better stuff before being able to craft it. Even worse, the trader has been too strong since its inception. Together that made crafting the loser by a too large margin. This has changed though, now crafting is (a little) too strong

Maybe just reducing the number of magazines found in mailboxes could help a lot here.

Also making the range of weapons/armors you can loot a little higher again could give looting a much needed boost. But it doesn't need much, especially it doesn't need a chance to find an end-game weapon in the first days. You may have romantic memories of the one find of an end-game weapon on day 3, but you usually don't remember that it made the rest of that game so trivial you stopped playing that game after week 3

I mean, you can still get by via looting instead of crafting if that's what you want to do. Playing like that wouldn't appeal to the min/max powergaming crowd, because all they care about is finding the shortest distance between any two points.

 

[meganoth]

I mean, you can still get by via looting instead of crafting if that's what you want to do. Playing like that wouldn't appeal to the min/max powergaming crowd, because all they care about is finding the shortest distance between any two points.

You may be right. I started my first 2.0 game recently and played up to day 6. Through looting I found a tier1 quality 0 knife on day ~4 while crafting is still at q3 bone knifes. Though I had been hampered by not finding a cooking pot for 5 days even though I concentrated on looting kitchens

 

[NiteVIper]

From what I've heard and seen, workstations in the wild were once fully functional. I gather they were "destroyed" because it made it far too easy to craft everything you'd ever possibly need for a day 21 or so horde by day 2 or 3. Of course, you can still do that if you you're a min-maxer and/or run around like a chicken with its head cut off for the first few days.

You're correct, used to the "Hunters cabin" had a working forge in it already, and most traders had a working forge and workbench in them. I still have the legacy version on console, and when I want to do something different, I'll hop into that game and play it for a bit.

 

[theFlu]

This is a direct result from crafting now being the fastest way to get almost anything.

There's an annoying secondary effect to the drop rate system; you get only what you spec for. The magazines sort themself out once you max out, everything else starts dropping again. But if you decide to go for pistols, there are basically no random _other weapons_ in the loot. Eventually they'll show up, there's always a small chance; but even the loot becomes deterministic by your skill points.

That's also a roadblock on the "emergent gaming" .. unless you spec for that by not speccing for anything; but even then that's a choice you made, "gimme something random". And you'll have to give up your firepower for it...

 

[Kalen]

This is a direct result from crafting now being the fastest way to get almost anything. If the deterministic way (crafting) is faster than the random way the random way is useless. And the progression at least becomes deterministic as well. I hope they'll notice this and patch it again. But naturally lots of crafting-fans will protest again, it is a delicate balance that has to be found.

In many earlier alphas looting was too strong because you could find better equipment too often. With how often people were looting they were almost guaranteed to find the better stuff before being able to craft it. Even worse, the trader has been too strong since its inception. Together that made crafting the loser by a too large margin. This has changed though, now crafting is (a little) too strong

Maybe just reducing the number of magazines found in mailboxes could help a lot here.

Also making the range of weapons/armors you can loot a little higher again could give looting a much needed boost. But it doesn't need much, especially it doesn't need a chance to find an end-game weapon in the first days. You may have romantic memories of the one find of an end-game weapon on day 3, but you usually don't remember that it made the rest of that game so trivial you stopped playing that game after week 3

Well, I hate to keep living in the past, but since I've already started going down the rabbit hole.... To me this is also a consequence of the removal of item degradation. For those unaware, it used to be that every time you repaired an item, its quality declined. Now there was a time when item quality was a range between 1 and 600 instead of 1 to 6, so you had a lot of room to work with. But the fact that items did not last forever meant that both crafting and looting were valuable. You would craft replacement items, but you could save resources if you lucked out and looted something.... or you could even loot something superior to what you could craft.

For me, this was one of the most disappointing changes they've ever made. It seems small, but item degradation made crafting and looting always vital to the game. Now, once you have a top tier item you never need worry about it again.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Well, I hate to keep living in the past, but since I've already started going down the rabbit hole.... To me this is also a consequence of the removal of item degradation. For those unaware, it used to be that every time you repaired an item, its quality declined. Now there was a time when item quality was a range between 1 and 600 instead of 1 to 6, so you had a lot of room to work with. But the fact that items did not last forever meant that both crafting and looting were valuable. You would craft replacement items, but you could save resources if you lucked out and looted something.... or you could even loot something superior to what you could craft.

For me, this was one of the most disappointing changes they've ever made. It seems small, but item degradation made crafting and looting always vital to the game. Now, once you have a top tier item you never need worry about it again.

Completely agree, and it's why I consider Zilox's Item Quality Degradation mod to be a must-have. I won't play the game without it.

 

[Kalen]

Completely agree, and it's why I consider Zilox's Item Quality Degradation mod to be a must-have. I won't play the game without it.

Woah, no kidding? I looked forever for a mod that did that.... tried writing my own too and never could quite figure out a good way to make it work. I'll check it out, thanks for that!

 

[EvilPolygons]

Woah, no kidding? I looked forever for a mod that did that.... tried writing my own too and never could quite figure out a good way to make it work. I'll check it out, thanks for that!

Can't remember if it's on the Nexus or the 7DaysToDieMods website.

Just want to add that the biggest reason I like item degradation isn't even because of game balance, per se. It's because item degradation keeps you excited about getting good loot all the way up to the endgame. Looting never stops being fun because you never stop needing top-quality gear to replace your stuff when it wears out.

As you said, once you have the best gear, there's nothing left to look forward to. Item degradation completely changes that.

 

[Krougal]

Well we can all live in the past now, A16 mod. I think I'm going to give it a try. While I didn't love the LBD, at least it was pre-FO style skill trees. If you're going to copy something, try to pick something that doesn't suck.
Annnnd....it doesn't...seem...to...work
I made a new instance with the mod launcher, put it and a few QOL mods (like wheelmouse and the like, nothing that should conflict). Still see the same skill trees

 

[Krougal]

Oh nvm, I had to look at images from mod page. I was expecting it to replace the current system not be in addition. It's a kludgy hack...le'sigh.
Maybe I'll just go play A16. I think I'm done. See all y'all next patch!

 

[doublednh]

This New Update is a Slap in the Face to Dedicated Players and a greedy money grab to the new ones. (if there are any now)

After playing this game for years and investing over 3000 hours, I have to speak up.

This latest update....sorry but... its absolutely terrible. It feels like the Fun Pimps completely ignored the core player base—the ones who have supported the game from the beginning—and instead just went for a straight money grab, probably because they have misspent, abused their investments, or no longer have a consistent inflow of funds. It's definitely NOT for the fun of the game and the player base, and THAT....we know, we can tell.

The changes have either broken systems that didn’t need fixing or made core mechanics frustrating and needlessly complicated. Most of the promised updates from years of promises have yet to surface and yet here we are.
The entire "Biome Badge" lock out absolutely destroys any sense of exploration that once existed. We’ve all learned to master and enjoy mechanics over the years that were either janky or normal, that have been gutted or replaced, changed or removed, and we've stuck it out with this "team of devs" no matter what happened. But now, with no consideration for how it affects long-time dedicated players whatsoever, the ones who actually have pushed this game to continue all this time even through all the monotony and delays, ... we have been ignored and slapped in the face with this new biome lock out, useless PAID cosmetic DLC, and reworks/fixes promised yet never happened.

Survival? Is it gone...??? Eat your glass jars and cans with the food and water I guess eh? UI changes? Are there any useful ones? The Grind? Even more excessive or just plain boring now. And don't even get me started on the new zombie types—who asked for those things....? The new bees flying around everywhere...fine, I get it...add some difficulty. The relentless "same zombie appearing every 5 seconds in the desert" is completely unnecessary. Why? Because you want to show off your mediocre development of "something new".....please.

We’ve been giving feedback, testing updates and mods (tons of really good mods actually), and helping shape this game’s community and efforts for years. But instead of rewarding that loyalty, this update feels like a reset that punishes anyone who actually put in the time or stuck with it through all the bs.

I get that Fun Pimps need to attract new players, hence consistent updates—but not at the expense of the ones who have kept the game alive. We’re not asking for everything to stay the same forever. We’re asking to be respected and listened to AND NOT LOCKED OUT OF CORE GAMEPLAY AND EXPLORATION?!@?!?!@##@$%@

Please, if any devs are reading this—stop chasing trends and start focusing on what made this game special in the first place: the community that has stuck with you through every patch, every bug, and every win.

Disappointed doesn't even begin to cover it. I for one am praying that they read endless bags of edited reviews, constant forum discussions on how terrible this update was, stop banning players for voicing their opinions in the forums.... and instead....MAYBE JUST MAYBE ADMIT THIS WAS A BAD UPDATE....>>!>!>!>!>!>

Do you even realize how INCREDIBLE it would be for the Fun Pimps to literally hop on here and say.....
"You know what players...we're sorry for this one. You were right. We kinda screwed the pooch on this update and we're gonna make it better. Please give us a moment to adjust, we will not disappoint you."

O M G I cannot begin to only hope to see their actual words come through in such a caring way for their player base THAT IS SPEAKING UP. The players tell you because they LOVE 7DTD and they don't want to see it die.

I will continue to stay here for a much longer time if I see this kind of care and effort put into a product from the developers, that's why I even support early access to any degree actually...., and I know I'm not alone.

Please FUN PIMPS...please please do NOT let this update be the death of you! We are all seeing waaaaay too many bad reviews and responses to this one.
Help us.........we are waiting and we will continue to support you when you make this right.

P.S. - Please don't ban me for voicing my opinion.

LINK TO STEAM FORUMS discussion also- please take a look at all the responses!

How do I put this?...Rollback please?!?!?! FUN PIMPS! Whyyyyyy?!?!?! :: 7 Days to Die General Discussions

This New Update is a Slap in the Face to Dedicated Players and a greedy money grab to the new ones. (if there are any now) After playing this game for years and investing over 3000 hours, I have to speak up. This latest update....sorry but... its absolutely terrible. It feels like the Fun Pimps...

steamcommunity.com

So I have 14,000 hours in game. Does that mean my opinion 4 1/2 times more important than yours? I like the update.

 

[Riamus]

There's an annoying secondary effect to the drop rate system; you get only what you spec for. The magazines sort themself out once you max out, everything else starts dropping again. But if you decide to go for pistols, there are basically no random _other weapons_ in the loot. Eventually they'll show up, there's always a small chance; but even the loot becomes deterministic by your skill points.

That's also a roadblock on the "emergent gaming" .. unless you spec for that by not speccing for anything; but even then that's a choice you made, "gimme something random". And you'll have to give up your firepower for it...

It is interesting that you mentioned that. I've seen others mention it as well. But in my game, I'm getting a variety of weapons and I'm only perked into spears, plus one point in pistols that I did on the first horde night. I've found the fist weapons, sledgehammers, batons, stun batons, pretty much every type of tier 1 weapon, etc. I am not far enough yet to start getting much more than tier 1... even my spears are only mid-quality iron, so I can't comment on high tier weapons. But even though I get more spears because I'm perked in them, I am getting a pretty good assortment of weapons. Does that change as you get to the higher tier weapons? Or is it based on having points in attributes rather than weapons even though weapons are where it says you get the bonus? I am a jack of all trades, so I do have points in 3 attributes (none in strength or fortitude yet).

 

[theFlu]

Or is it based on having points in attributes rather than weapons even though weapons are where it says you get the bonus?

Well, my A23 experience is rather limited still; one game, at around D33 with about a week spent just faffing about with the new stuff - so this may have changed. I'm specialized into Agi in that one, and considered myself 'lucky' for getting a singular Q1 M60 (for throwing away all the 7.62 littering my loot tables).

Usually my games have been: if I spec into spears, at some point I have 4-5 steel spears in a box somewhere - I keep a spare, and the rest will just get auto-stacked in that box until I need to make space. Usually nothing else of similar tier. Never anything Better off-spec, unless I buy it - so No incentive to swap "emergently". Ofc one can always re-spec into a weapon to get it drop, but that's about as far from emergent as you can..

Won't be able to say much about A23, as I doubt I have another game in me after I deal with a d35 horde (wasteland, grover high). Might stretch that game into d42/49, and then try a push-to-wasteland-asap just to see how it plays - but that won't give me any new insight into loots.

 

[meganoth]

Day 8 now, I speeced only in AGI weapons, and found:
2 q0 hunting knifes in toilets
~2-3 bone knifes
~2 pistols
1 sledgehammer
2 knuckle wraps
1-2 pipe rifle
2 pipe machine guns
1 pipe shotgun

 

[theFlu]

q0 hunting knifes

Pointless nit, but ain't that Q1?

And yeh, the early stuff drops are more varied, that's partially due to not having maxed out the skill yet. But in comparison to earlier Alphas, where you could get something that'd make you go "should I swap over to this"; that list won't have that effect.

Thanks for the data point