PC Horde Night is DEAD

It´s almost like they try to make the Z´s the most harmless challenge in the game. Everything get´s stupidly complicated but horde nights are a joke.

They try superhard to make undergroundbases not an option but every POI roof is still a safe place on hordenight. That´s way more cheap and lame than digging down. You have to actually work for your safety instead of just nerdpoling up to a roof after destroying one stairway and a ladder. Just choose another building every week and you don´t even need to be prepared a lot.

 
Just choose another building every week and you don´t even need to be prepared a lot.
I know this works well for a little while. I've seen a couple people base video series on this concept. However, they always start it off on day 21 or less and they aren't consistent with their gamestages. I've tried games where I go for max XP... and when you do that, your day 21 horde will be much harder.

I have never seen anybody do this for an entire playthrough that goes beyond day 21. I am interested to see for how long it works, for the sake of science, of course. If you have an example, please share. This of course does not help me in my situation in any way, but I would like to see someone try this. I have doubts. I think most of the POIs would get wrecked late game.

 
The concept of having to defend something has merit. I just think that it has to be way more streamlined and intuitive than having to invent 100 rules about it. Since we are throwing ideas around for kicks here's one more (not more cheesy anymore, compared to the first time I suggested it, than what is already in game):

Could make the nights similar to
Right on bloody point. There is no excuse anymore - the option is right there on the menu. I think it's high time gameplay became more synergistic, instead of having random optional-in-real-time elements (TD), which the player doesn't have an actual reason to engage with!

 
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My group are currently playing with Blood Moons turned off, to see what difference it makes.

It's actually quite surprising how much better (in my opinion) it makes the game. As the primary builder for our group it makes a huge difference to me in that I'm not spending half my time trying to build/repair a horde-night structure (we wouldn't dream of spending horde night in our primary base) and I can devote more time to scavenging and questing with the others in the group.

We still need to make our primary base defensible against wandering hordes and screamer hordes, so it's not as if it takes that side of the game away completely, but it is very freeing and makes it much easier for us to take things at our own pace.

If you're the sort of player who must get as much XP as possible as quickly as possible then I can see that you might want to keep using horde night, but for the rest of us it's just a chore and I'd recommend switching it off like we've done. Unless there are major changes to the way the game works, we're unlikely to ever switch it back on in future games.

(Note: this isn't intended as a negative "horde night sucks" post - but a positive "having the option to switch off horde night if you don't enjoy it is great" post.)

 
But seriously, people logging out in MP servers to avoid horde night is not a reason to say "oh bloody hell, there is nothing we can do to enforce a game mechanic since people can just stop playing the game, so let's just make everything voluntary and unimportant as a result"- said no game developer ever!
Perhaps one did... but I hope not.

My group are currently playing with Blood Moons turned off, to see what difference it makes.
It's actually quite surprising how much better (in my opinion) it makes the game. As the primary builder for our group it makes a huge difference to me in that I'm not spending half my time trying to build/repair a horde-night structure (we wouldn't dream of spending horde night in our primary base) and I can devote more time to scavenging and questing with the others in the group.

We still need to make our primary base defensible against wandering hordes and screamer hordes, so it's not as if it takes that side of the game away completely, but it is very freeing and makes it much easier for us to take things at our own pace.

If you're the sort of player who must get as much XP as possible as quickly as possible then I can see that you might want to keep using horde night, but for the rest of us it's just a chore and I'd recommend switching it off like we've done. Unless there are major changes to the way the game works, we're unlikely to ever switch it back on in future games.

(Note: this isn't intended as a negative "horde night sucks" post - but a positive "having the option to switch off horde night if you don't enjoy it is great" post.)
It sounds all right. Definitely removes the frustrations.

This wouldn't suit me though. I want to experience the threats, beads of sweat dripping off my brow, the worry if I and my base will survive, my pupils dilated taking in every moment as the chance of everything I have worked for getting destroyed increases, pumping out hundreds of rounds, surrounded by carnage. It could be so great, so fulfilling... until you realize that it really wasn't a threat and now you have to go looting for a week to do it again... for no reason... again.

 
My group are currently playing with Blood Moons turned off, to see what difference it makes.
It's actually quite surprising how much better (in my opinion) it makes the game. As the primary builder for our group it makes a huge difference to me in that I'm not spending half my time trying to build/repair a horde-night structure (we wouldn't dream of spending horde night in our primary base) and I can devote more time to scavenging and questing with the others in the group.

We still need to make our primary base defensible against wandering hordes and screamer hordes, so it's not as if it takes that side of the game away completely, but it is very freeing and makes it much easier for us to take things at our own pace.

If you're the sort of player who must get as much XP as possible as quickly as possible then I can see that you might want to keep using horde night, but for the rest of us it's just a chore and I'd recommend switching it off like we've done. Unless there are major changes to the way the game works, we're unlikely to ever switch it back on in future games.

(Note: this isn't intended as a negative "horde night sucks" post - but a positive "having the option to switch off horde night if you don't enjoy it is great" post.)
But what's the purpose ? I've always felt like everything I do during the playthrough is a way to get prepared to facing increasingly difficult horde nights. If I throw this out of the window, I fail to see how the game gives me any meaningful challenge at all.

 
The OP seems based on the premise that levels / skill points (and thereby increased GS) is a goal.
When I play I try to avoid gaining XP in order to keep the GS low as I scavenge and improve my gear.

During horde night I also rely on traps as much as possible for the same reason.
This is the first time I've seen specifically not-levelling and avoiding gaining XP as a goal...

Sign of a badly designed underlying system IMO.

 
I think the main problem with HN is that there is no incentive for fighting (rewards are crap and XP makes the game harder) and if you fail, you lose a lot more than your pride. Death Penalty alongside destroyed base (because they had to come in to get you, unless you ran out), appearing somewhere you will surely die again (with lack of belt equipment, bag or all) and all those bullets/bolts/resources lost.

In earlier versions it was "I can't escape this so i will make the bets fight there is", additionally getting cool rewards from the corpses. I enjoyed making towers from which i was shooting at zombies, while they tried to get to their base level through the traps i laid out. Later i gathered loot, repaired and moved on. Hell, i even ran around with a machete a few times, but that got boring after a while too.

Having an actual reward with added difficulty to the HN would benefit it tons. This would solve the problem of people missing out on it, because people would fear not being prepared for it and the game would allow this to some extent. Many people though, will die trying and even more succeed for the sake of reward. Someone at some other topic said, "reward the player, not penalize".

EDIT: @DaVegaNL - This is mainly because zombies are not well balanced (also in AI terms as A17 is an experiment for testing it), quests are not yet fully fleshed out and progression is not fully balanced yet. If you had clear progression in killing zombies (not to steep, but hard later on or perhaps a different factor for calculating gamestage) then this wouldn't be a problem.

 
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This is the first time I've seen specifically not-levelling and avoiding gaining XP as a goal...Sign of a badly designed underlying system IMO.
I guess TFP haven't learned from the mistakes of Oblivion. In that game you were heavily incentivized to designate the actual skills you were planning to use the most as "minor" skills, because increasing "major" skills would actually level your character and likely escalate the game world's threats too quickly to keep up with. It was completely ass-backwards and I remember feeling so relieved when the OOO mod replaced this system with more static threats in the world, so I'd finally have an actual reason to develop my character.

With 7DTD A17, leveling up feels mostly necessary to reduce tedious grind, there's only a few perks that feel like they expand gameplay in a meaningful way (which I personally think should be the purpose of perks). Hopefully the reworked perks and magazines will improve on this in A18.

More on topic: I don't skip horde nights, since I feel they're meant to be the challenge that the rest of this game prepares you for, but I do agree it's currently not working very well. I pretty much always end up exploiting the AI's inability to deal with height differences, as more "realistic" base designs just get trashed way too easily (especially at higher gamestages). The zombie block smashing strength, coupled with their janky animations, means "active" defenses are just not very viable unless you remove their ability to reach you at all.

 
Someone at some other topic said, "reward the player, not penalize".
That is one of the most misguided concepts I've ever seen - it surely sounds like a great concept, until you actually think what reward is, where will it lead and why are you happy after getting that reward. Sometimes you can make "punishment" look like a reward, which is a good thing overall, but in the end it is a matter of perspective. There can't be positive in the long-term without the negative, because it slowly stops being perceived as positive - it's that simple and it applies to everyone.

So, think about it: you want "rewards" in order to make BM worthwhile without being penalized. Why do you want them? Which is the ultimate goal? Perks, items? What is the purpose of those in the first place? Survival? Do you want to get rewarded in a BM with those, so that you can survive the ...rest of the time that you are barely threatened? And what is that about "don't penalize"? What is survival, other than the positive state on one side of the coin?

Seriously, I know everyone loves reward, but a little common sense won't hurt. Reward must be cleverly, prudently placed not handed out like confetii, otherwise it's not much of a reward.

 
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But what's the purpose ? I've always felt like everything I do during the playthrough is a way to get prepared to facing increasingly difficult horde nights. If I throw this out of the window, I fail to see how the game gives me any meaningful challenge at all.
Having fun exploring, looting, and generally surviving the zombie filled world is its own reward. It doesn't need to be serving a purpose.

 
Having fun exploring, looting, and generally surviving the zombie filled world is its own reward. It doesn't need to be serving a purpose.
Is this a survival game or is this minecraft?

Yes exploring CAN be its own reward. But it shouldnt be the only one in a SURVIVAL game.

PPL have different tastes. And if it was just about exploration, it wouldnt be a survival game.

I said it before:

everything in 7d2d is focused on getting ready for hordenight.

leveling up.

getting ressources.

looting.

doing quests.

Everything is there so you stand a chance against the hordenight you know will come.

It is like if you play WoW but there is no PvP at the end.

Yeah sure the journey is its own reward, but the majority of players (at least those that continue playing) are there for PvP and high level raids. There would be something missing without it.

Why do you want a legendary ultra weapon, when a normal one more than does the job against normal monsters?

 
1 You can safely ride around on a vehicle for the duration of horde night. - Don't like it ? don't do it.

2 you find yourself making expensive repairs afterward. - That my friend has been in the game from day one and is a core part of the game.

3 If you make a base that does cheese the AI, you are likely doing this to gain XP. - See No 1

4 but we are still left with the same problem of expensive repairs and little reward. - See No 2

5 set a base and defend a base just for the sake of doing so... because it is fun. - See No2... and yes it is fun.

6 A no-XP mod solves some of the problem. - NOPE. See No2... and yes this MAY be a problem for some so just Mod it in.

7 There are many reports of people in multi-player who simply log off the server when horde night comes. This is true but if they want to play that way, let them.

One of the main things i like about 7DTD is you can play the game the way you like... i hate games that make you play one way and lock you down to that play style.

In short... let players play the way they want to, don't lock players down just be cause SOME players don't like a small part of the game.

Now there is one thing that i'm with the OP on 100% is that there does need to be more reward added. I loved the old days when you use to get ammo, gear and food ect off killing the Zombies and yes you now get all that from looting POI's but as the OP says removing the zombie loot has taken away from Horde nights.... Maybe add more and better drops from them just for Horde night ???

 
1 You can safely ride around on a vehicle for the duration of horde night. - Don't like it ? don't do it.
How are there still ppl spouting this nonsense. Sorry. But it is.

If you dislike hordenight, disable it.

But can you not see, how there is a difference in experience, when in Resident Evil, there is a button that instantly removes every threat?

Yeah sure "don't use it". But you will not feel the same stress as you would without because you secretly know you can simply avoid it no problem.

In fifa if there is an exploit where certain shots are op, why do you think people (in offline mode) tell the devs to fix it?

Because it is boring. "just don't use it" is such a lame excuse for bad design.

If you want to avoid hordenights just use the console to skip the time or disable the hordenight in the options.

But don't tell me that an exploit that makes part of the core design null and void is somehow a good thing for the game.

Just stop.

Yes you enjoy it. And I am happy for you. I also enjoy the skyrim bugs for its hillarity.

That doesnt mean it shouldnt be fixed. If I want these bugs back I can mod them back in. But the base game should be a bug/glitch/exploitfree game.

How hard is this to get?

 
1 You can safely ride around on a vehicle for the duration of horde night. - Don't like it ? don't do it.2 you find yourself making expensive repairs afterward. - That my friend has been in the game from day one and is a core part of the game.

3 If you make a base that does cheese the AI, you are likely doing this to gain XP. - See No 1

4 but we are still left with the same problem of expensive repairs and little reward. - See No 2

5 set a base and defend a base just for the sake of doing so... because it is fun. - See No2... and yes it is fun.

6 A no-XP mod solves some of the problem. - NOPE. See No2... and yes this MAY be a problem for some so just Mod it in.

7 There are many reports of people in multi-player who simply log off the server when horde night comes. This is true but if they want to play that way, let them.

One of the main things i like about 7DTD is you can play the game the way you like... i hate games that make you play one way and lock you down to that play style.

In short... let players play the way they want to, don't lock players down just be cause SOME players don't like a small part of the game.

Now there is one thing that i'm with the OP on 100% is that there does need to be more reward added. I loved the old days when you use to get ammo, gear and food ect off killing the Zombies and yes you now get all that from looting POI's but as the OP says removing the zombie loot has taken away from Horde nights.... Maybe add more and better drops from them just for Horde night ???
You've set this up to list everything I say is wrong with horde night along with a simple disagreement without any reasoning behind them. Then you conclude that list by stating everyone should be able to play the game they want to.

Well what about me? Why can't I play the game I want to? Because you say so?

I want meaningful, satisfying events like you get in most games. Can't I have that?

 
Yes, the meaning of the game is lost without the night Horde.

Moreover - before it was risky just to go out at night from hiding, now it is possible to do a robbery the night, but why all this?

There is no motivation.

 
That is one of the most misguided concepts I've ever seen - it surely sounds like a great concept, until you actually think what reward is, where will it lead and why are you happy after getting that reward. Sometimes you can make "punishment" look like a reward, which is a good thing overall, but in the end it is a matter of perspective. There can't be positive in the long-term without the negative, because it slowly stops being perceived as positive - it's that simple and it applies to everyone.
So, think about it: you want "rewards" in order to make BM worthwhile without being penalized. Why do you want them? Which is the ultimate goal? Perks, items? What is the purpose of those in the first place? Survival? Do you want to get rewarded in a BM with those, so that you can survive the ...rest of the time that you are barely threatened? And what is that about "don't penalize"? What is survival, other than the positive state on one side of the coin?

Seriously, I know everyone loves reward, but a little common sense won't hurt. Reward must be cleverly, prudently placed not handed out like confetii, otherwise it's not much of a reward.
Considering that HN only penalizes the player currently, when in the past it awarded with a lot of loot which apart from repairing your base, was enough to make you feel progressing forward. Now you get only XP which increases difficulty and perhaps some bags if you're lucky enough, but most likely will give food.

To some extent we all are people who thrive to have the best possible way to play the game, some people only in little steps, but it's still there. You gain experience in the order of skills you unlock (first pack mule, perhaps stealth, Sex T-Rex or aim for the forge), what materials you need first (focus on wood or stone, dirt and sand later, etc.), where you explore (burning is good with building corners, desert is too vast, forest is always good, etc.), how you build your base (take over a POI, build something from scratch or dig into the ground) and many other aspects of the game. Along all of that is the enjoyment we get, but it doesn't mean we don't strive to GIT GUD.

Apart from what everyone said, there's not much more to be said about Horde Night.

- It SHOULD NOT be avoidable.

- It SHOULD be difficult.

- It SHOULD scale according to player progression, not faster nor slower. A good equilibrium is required in everything.

- It SHOULD give a sense of reward, unless it's only purpose will be to haunt the player (like the incoming hordes in They Are Billions). In its current state, it does neither of those.

- It SHOULD be satisfying as you kill the last zombie victorious.

- It SHOULD have a breather, so you don't have a WH on you 2 minutes after sunrise. I imagine HN as the gathering of EVERYTHING from around, i don't suspect a single group decide to wait till dawn to ambush me...

EDIT: n2n1 - Shortly after i started playing 7DTD i was scared of going outside at night, but i did try multiple times until i knew how to do it safely. Things worked different in the past, but it was still possible to out at night if you were careful.

 
You don't need to defend a base. You can safely ride around on a vehicle for the duration of horde night. You might say, so what? After all, shouldn't a person decide what they want to do in the game? Of course, they should. However, if you do this for every horde night, where is the challenge in the game? Why have horde night at all then? Wouldn't this get boring rather quickly?
It could, if you have vehicles. I do think there needs to be more risk to using vehicles on horde night. I don't think they need to be taken out of the picture entirely. I like playing against the hordes, so I doubt I'll ever take this option, or if I do it will be rare. However, I do like having a vehicle that can save my butt if the horde overruns my base/my base design fails. As for other players, who can say? Maybe they find horde nights ridiculous as a concept and would rather just deal with the day to day threat of zombies. But I think ppl who don't want to deal with the horde can already effectively turn it off/lengthen the time between hordes.

If you do make a base, and you make it so that it doesn't cheese the AI, you find yourself making expensive repairs afterward.
I guess it depends on what counts as 'cheesing' the AI. RN I and a couple of friends are using a maze base filled with iron spikes and blade traps with iron bars up above that allow for shooting down. So far, we're suffering minimal damage to the base and traps. Later horde nights might change that as their numbers overwhelm the dps of us and the base and that is entirely possible.

As the game progresses, you quickly realize the massive amounts of ammunition you have gone through. The zombies don't drop enough loot to make up for this. That is, if you were lucky enough to grab the very few loot bags that do drop before they despawn. What you probably have gained from this is a good amount of XP. But guess what, you've also increased your gamestage, so get ready to waste even more resources the next round. So, isn't it better to simply avoid horde night? Probably.
Agree so hard here. It's a huge bummer to watch loot bags drop and then despawn. Worse is if you manage to get a lootbag and it has a couple of beers in it. I do hope the loot tuning gets another pass. I know that some people want less xp and no loot at all from zombies, which is cool. But me? I'd like a treat or two that I can actually get after horde night. However, and this is something I go back and forth on in my own thoughts, should the horde compensate for the resources spent? Right now I'm in the 'mmm maybe it shouldn't' phase of thought.

We can accumulate resources pretty quick and with the introduction of steel casings, the biggest limiter we have is the ability to get nitrate. (I've gone on many a nitrate digging parties for this reason. In A16 it was brass that we were constantly hunting for.) Steel can be a pain if you're building that strong and the base is taking a lot of hits, but the materials to get steel are plentiful. So, it does make some sense to me that the horde nights deplete resources. Meaning that what we get out of them is far less than what we need to put in. Something has to balance our ability to stockpile or the threat lessens significantly.

What I'm less sure about when it comes to gamestage and resources spent is the POI spawning. If the resources required starts to consistently net the player less than what they must spend to get them, then IMO, that's a real problem as it puts it us in the position to use straight mining and maybe quests as a means of stopping the horde. I'm really pushing agility/stealth and perception/bow perks right now to see if the tipping point exists. I can reliably one shot regular cops, some ferals, and sometimes irratiateds with steel arrows and I think I still have another level in sneak shot to take. It's not entirely without risk and I've had a couple of instances of needing to pull out my trusty 9mm, but that's the exception rather than the norm. So, the resources I'm spending, at this point, are far less than what I'm usually getting. However, for my friends playing in the same server who haven't gone so heavy into those attributes/perks, their results are different, sometimes hugely.

I had another thought here, but it escaped due to lack of coffee.

 
I don't want to see vehicles go either.

I proposed a solution for that in another post.

Regrading the resources used when repairing after horde night, I want to clarify.

I don't expect to get back the resources. I have no problem spending time after to gain them back in prep for the next HN.

The problem is that there is no balance here. For what I have spent in resources and time I should get back in something special and worth the time and effort.

 
Since this discussion is the same since it arose with The first iteration of vehicles:

Bloodmoon is obviously different than any other night.

There is thunder before it is nighttime.

So why can't we say that the electromagnetic pulses off the bloodmoon somehow mess with the electronics (obviously not the bycicle).

In game terms:

every few minutes there is a chance on several debuffs or buffs (not all need to be added. adding one is enough but the more the better and more fun):

buffs:

vehicle is even faster than before (overcharged) but also damages the vehicle for 20%per ingamehour (calculate how much that is per second :D )

vehicle exhausts 5x the smoke than before, making zombies not hunt you anymore but uses 20x more fuel.

debuffs:

vehicles breaks dont work anymore and speed is locked in for the rest of the hordenight

vehicle randomly stops for a minute or until you use a repairkit on it. (dangerous midair)

vehicle is 80% slower than before

vehicles steering doesnt work anymore or is completely eradic (so the sensitivity is at 4000%)

there are more options that might not be as agressive.

or the simplest and basic method (and probably prefered method of tfps because they dont think little touches are worth it):

batteries go haywire on bloodmoon making batterybanks and vehicles unusable.

 
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