PC Horde night defenses or Modify Zombie Strength ?

It's more of a challenge.

A simple design that has no real thought put into it made by day 3 ....

.... won't cut it anymore.

Now you really have to be clever and you have to work for it.

That's a good thing right?
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It's exactly the other way around. Before this, you spent days doing a perimeter defense. Now in half a day you can do a pathing defense. Not cool and almost effortless.

 
It's exactly the other way around. Before this, you spent days doing a perimeter defense. Now in half a day you can do a pathing defense. Not cool and almost effortless.
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Yup, Exactly. Not to mention AI pathing defenses are completely disconnecting the Immersion into the game.

 
It's exactly the other way around. Before this, you spent days doing a perimeter defense. Now in half a day you can do a pathing defense. Not cool and almost effortless.
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Yeah when I made that comment I wasn't taking into account the pathing defense.

You're right on that account.

Hopefully when TFP introduce the new RND tweaks to the AI we'll see something more challenging.

I don't envy their challenge.

Making an AI to fight against Humans seems incredibly difficult in an open environment like 7DTD.

In a box with specific rules, sure. Big Blue can kick our *ss*s at Chess. Not so much at 7DTD.

 
Making an AI to fight against Humans seems incredibly difficult in an open environment like 7DTD.

In a box with specific rules, sure. Big Blue can kick our *ss*s at Chess. Not so much at 7DTD.
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Yes it's difficult and yes they could make Zombies which kick our butts but then where would the challenge be if they were ALWAYS kicking our butts and we could never win. Part of the winning come with overcoming the challenges.

Or why even have building materials if they are nullified against the horde because they FORCED us into pathing defenses instead of a CHOICE.

 
Chess? Go? The game feels more like Tic-Tac-Toe at the moment.

I no longer feel any sense of long-term strategy, I used to have some sense of feeling like a Roman General on the frontier of the Empire. Building proper defenses and defending them, the feeling is gone.

 
I am not exactly too concerned about how they made zombies hard, or how they made spawning vultures ever 2 minutes of game play.. I just took out their changes.. modded the server exactly the way I wanted it to be.. even gave them more frequent loot drops. If you couldnt mod this game and was forced to play by their rules., I would not be as interested in it at all. I personally do not like some of the changes and refuse to be forced into them.

 
Faatal warned that the new pathing and AI would have its own set of problems. You complain about how easy it is to cheese the AI and then describe these creative mazes and kill corridors as if cheesing the A16 AI wasn’t a billion times easier than it is using these current tactics.

Design a funnel or maze vs dig down three blocks. I’m going to go with A17 over A16 thank you.

It’s not perfect but it is a fantastic starting point that is much improved over zombies that stood around, zombies that spun in circles, zombies that did not destroy blocks at all, zombies that were blind and deaf at night even one or two meters away from you.

There will always be cheesy ways to exploit the AI but we have assurances that faatal knows how to randomize their behavior and make some of them smart and others dumb and improve things from this first version.

 
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...why even have building materials if they are nullified against the horde because they FORCED us into pathing defenses instead of a CHOICE.
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I might have debated you at one point over this but now I'm kind of coming around.

I'm having difficulty finding a good reason to build cobblestone WITHOUT cheesing the AI.

What exactly is it good for now?

I like A17 and I like a lot of the changes.

I also would like to see TFP re-examine the entire block system and see if now some blocks aren't just a little antiquated.

Faatal warned that the new pathing and AI would have its own set of problems. You complain about how easy it is to cheese the AI and then describe these creative mazes and kill corridors as if cheesing the A16 AI wasn’t a billion times easier than it is using these current tactics.
Design a funnel or maze vs dig down three blocks. I’m going to go with A17 over A16 thank you.

It’s not perfect but it is a fantastic starting point that is much improved over zombies that stood around, zombies that spun in circles, zombies that did not destroy blocks at all, zombies that were blind and deaf at night even one or two meters away from you.


There will always be cheesy ways to exploit the AI but we have assurances that faatal knows how to randomize their behavior and make some of them smart and others dumb and improve things from this first version.
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Yeah that's the part I'm really looking forward to.

Randomness in zombies not only seems right [i expect some to be really dumb... not unlike humans], but it's going to make even the best designs less "perfect".

The moaning that's inevitable from the snowflakes though..... ugh.

9qVyLVB.gif


Not looking forward to that.

 
The issue is that the zombies don't act like zombies. I assume at some point in the future they will act like zombies.

Another issue is that steel blocks and concrete blocks are unrealistically flimsy. This has annoyed every player that I've gotten to play with me, they don't understand why steel and concrete get destroyed so quickly. I never really bother going beyond flagstone for this reason. If they are going to beat through the flagstone, they would have done the same to concrete, you're investing many times more resources and tech points to buy maybe 6 or 7 seconds of extra time before they smash through it.

 
It's exactly the other way around. Before this, you spent days doing a perimeter defense. Now in half a day you can do a pathing defense. Not cool and almost effortless.
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And since they claimed they introduced tower defense, it is also pretty much the intended way

to play. However, since it is useful, i am expecting a nerf to it, one way or another.

They probaly are going to randomize zombie behavior and INCREASE their block damage by 50%

since they would no longer attack a single spot... :distrust:

 
I might have debated you at one point over this but now I'm kind of coming around.I'm having difficulty finding a good reason to build cobblestone WITHOUT cheesing the AI.

What exactly is it good for now?

I like A17 and I like a lot of the changes.

I also would like to see TFP re-examine the entire block system and see if now some blocks aren't just a little antiquated.
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Careful what we wish for mate.

They might just choose to remove wood, scrap metal, flagstone and cobblestone entirely to make sure

it is worth making concrete bases (it would be the only building material left).

 
If I was in a zombie apocalypse and managed to create concrete, it probably would not be very strong. However, using some aggregate can do wonders beyond just sand and stones. It really needs some limestone, or some calcium carbonate from another source. Being that we eat 10 meals of bacon and eggs each day, I think egg shells blasted in the furnace could provide enough. So I tell myself this whenever I think that it seems too flimsy. We have the recipe wrong. Knowing this though, I would probably sharpen the rebar, so that once the concrete breaks away, you now have spikes in place.

Now steel... that's a different story. Nobody is going to be making that in a homemade forge. That said, if it's too flimsy we should just accept it for what it is and be thankful we actually produced something beyond our makeshift concrete.

 
I wonder if the code is still available for when blocks had health and damage resistance.

The current system of straight HP makes it intuitive that a high HP block is tougher, but when when a horde can sustain a few hundred damage a second it doesn't really matter if a block has 500 or 2500 HP.

 
I was doing some testing using the semi-float method as backup defense with the Ramp Circus Merry-go-Round as primary defense..

View attachment 26527

The support section in the middle is a Red Herring to let the zombies chew on something. But they will ignore the base as long as the ramp is still up. Very little damage done. (Ramp on the right)

View attachment 26528

This is the base from the top of the ramp. I have two fire cages I use for different reasons (you can see the shadow of the second cage that's above the door).

 
I don't want to see them change it.
I like that zombies are stronger now.

It's more of a challenge.

A simple design that has no real thought put into it made by day 3 ....

.... won't cut it anymore.

Now you really have to be clever and you have to work for it.

That's a good thing right?

That sense of accomplishment when you earn something?
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What really do you earn? Zeds aren't lootable anymore and only sometimes drop a "dropped loot" bag. If anything Horde nights is an even bigger annoyance now.

I don't agree they should stay this retardedly strong, any blocks that require specific specialization (Concrete and steel) through level gating and skill points/perks should not be easily destroyed by zeds.

 
I don't agree they should stay this retardedly strong, any blocks that require specific specialization (Concrete and steel) through level gating and skill points/perks should not be easily destroyed by zeds.
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This.

If there will never be a block or defense that can stop them, even with perks and all the grinding collecting resources... Then why the ♥♥♥♥ am I leveling and putting points into ♥♥♥♥ for?!?!

 
A17 is pretty awesome. I like it a bunch.
However On horde nights I see many players log out, not because they are wimps (well maybe some) but because Horde night zombies are too OP for "normal" base defences... and I think tere could be a very simple fix.

Instead of building a cage of Pillars as we could in A15/(early A16?) that you could melee through until it was eventually compromised and you had to retreat to another area/layer of defence ... we see elaborate base designs needing to use weird "time wasting" methods on the zombies or floating bases or employing massive amounts of resources and layers only to have the zombies laser focus to make one path in (and ALL of them are SUPER Genius knowing when and what path to attack)...

This makes no sence. Realizm with A17 is out the door when it comes to the Horde on horde night.

Whatever Bonus Zombies got to block damage in A16 is causing them to chew through defenses too quick.

(reinforced concrete on day 7 took only 6 game mins) That's Crazy for 8 (low level) zombies to do.

Yeah, It worked in A16 because we all just build platfroms for them to mill around under...

But in A17 with increased AI, players are FORCED for build crazy structures to have some sort of long term defense.

MY POINT:

The server I played A16 on had massive horde nights with no limit to the number 16 at a time ALL NIGHT LONG...


That was a blast to be hyped (actively) defending and repairing the horde spot to keep the MASSIVE NUMBERS of Zombies at bay...

 


The Strength was not in the first 16 that appeared shredding your base like tissue paper but the fact that they would do damage ALL NIGHT LONG little by little each one pecking away...




SO... I would hope TFP would listen and maybe work to allow massive amounts of waves instead of 8 zombies blowing through your tissue-paper defenses in 6 mins ...

Just nerfing the Bonus damages? or whatever was changed that they grind through defenses so fast...

Is it just me or do some other veterans feel the same?
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JUST NO! I have been waiting for zombies to finally get tougher for YEARS. No way in hell I want stupid weak zombies again. I even wish they would make the zombie horde night max of 128 instead of 64.

ZOMBIES WITH LESS HP BUT MORE DAMAGE IS A GOOD THING! We don't want bullet sponge zombies either.

suggestions

1) zombie damage settings (like how we get HP settings from Scavenger to Insane)

2) improve zombie AI for A18 to avoid exploits of zombies with cookie cutter base designs

3) zombie hordes spawn in huge waves like in the previous alpha that way it takes time for their bonus group damage to build up

 
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Faatal warned that the new pathing and AI would have its own set of problems. You complain about how easy it is to cheese the AI and then describe these creative mazes and kill corridors as if cheesing the A16 AI wasn’t a billion times easier than it is using these current tactics.
Design a funnel or maze vs dig down three blocks. I’m going to go with A17 over A16 thank you.

It’s not perfect but it is a fantastic starting point that is much improved over zombies that stood around, zombies that spun in circles, zombies that did not destroy blocks at all, zombies that were blind and deaf at night even one or two meters away from you.

There will always be cheesy ways to exploit the AI but we have assurances that faatal knows how to randomize their behavior and make some of them smart and others dumb and improve things from this first version.
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YES! it is a Better system then A16, a great starting point

AND I love Everything about it EXCEPT THE ♥♥♥♥ING BONUSES that give Zombies the ability to rip through reinforced Concrete in 6 mins... totally ABSURD.

I Hope Faatal puts in some sort of randomizer to make the zeds sometimes forget their Tri-corders and act like a brainless zombie just beating on the nearest surface between it and you on horde night. BUT I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT IS NECCESSARY...

IF IT TOOK ABOUT 1-2 GAME HOUR(s) (not 6 mins) for 8 Zeds to beat through Reinforced Concrete I would consider that "realistic reward for the effort to build" .

Otherwise it is just seems too unbalanced and you see all the gamers just building Cheezy pathing AI mazes and unrealistic builds.

JUST NO! I have been waiting for zombies to finally get tougher for YEARS. No way in hell I want stupid weak zombies again. I even wish they would make the zombie horde night max of 128 instead of 64.
ZOMBIES WITH LESS HP BUT MORE DAMAGE IS A GOOD THING! We don't want bullet sponge zombies either.
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I didn't advocate a Stupid Zombies, nor a Weak one.

I Was stating the time it takes zeds to blow through "normal" Logical layers of defenses is pittifully out of balance.

The Extra Bonuses they get grouped up and for night and for blood moon make walls of NO VALUE.

Why even have materials to build anything if they take 2 game days to acquire and are paper thin taking only 6 mins for 8 zeds to rip through with all the zombie BONUSES to their damage on horde night.

Totally Stupid.

I was NOT whining about ME being UNable to develop a winning strategy... I Was saying the CURRENT Design and BALANCE causes me to change the method of defenses which causes a LACK OF FUN FACTOR AND CHOICE.

I'm Hard core and totally up for a challenge but when the GAME DESIGN FORCES me to take actions to create AI mazes OR THE GAME FORCES me NOT TO BUILD that REMOVES the Fun choice factor of THIS GAME that was present in the past and IMO part of the reason it is successful.

That is what I'm talking about and the REASON for the OP.

It could be a Simple change that would make the Game Much more Balanced and appealing.

I don't agree they should stay this retardedly strong, any blocks that require specific specialization (Concrete and steel) through level gating and skill points/perks should not be easily destroyed by zeds.
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This.
If there will never be a block or defense that can stop them, even with perks and all the grinding collecting resources... Then why the ♥♥♥♥ am I leveling and putting points into ♥♥♥♥ for?!?!
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My point clarified. Thank you.

 
Faatal warned that the new pathing and AI would have its own set of problems. You complain about how easy it is to cheese the AI and then describe these creative mazes and kill corridors as if cheesing the A16 AI wasn’t a billion times easier than it is using these current tactics.
Design a funnel or maze vs dig down three blocks. I’m going to go with A17 over A16 thank you.

It’s not perfect but it is a fantastic starting point that is much improved over zombies that stood around, zombies that spun in circles, zombies that did not destroy blocks at all, zombies that were blind and deaf at night even one or two meters away from you.

There will always be cheesy ways to exploit the AI but we have assurances that faatal knows how to randomize their behavior and make some of them smart and others dumb and improve things from this first version.
Click to expand...
I feel like the AI is less of a problem than the speed at which zeds apply damage now. I don't get why the devs hate forts bases so much (evidenced by concrete nerfs and stainless steel removal after it became apparent there was trouble brewing). Cheese has become almost mandatory and the few designs that aren't cheese, still feel cheesy.

What's the goal here?

 
hey Randomdude and others, who are unable to defend hord. make some adjustments to your hord base. first start using flagstone, upgrade to gobble. use wooden bars, you can upgrade them to iron. find random small stone or brick building or evn rubble corner, build woodbar platform, 2 wide, cover with woodframes. put wood spikes below. walk around and shoot down. it is not hard at all to defend first 2 bm hordes. by then you have reached point, when you can improve your base even more.

 
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