PC Game development "models" and player satisfaction

[Melange]

AI within the game that can sense and adjust to player satisfaction...its a real thing now.

Scientists develop model that adjusts videogame difficulty based on player emotions: The novel approach will help create a better gaming experience for all types of players -- ScienceDaily

Then we can debate the AI...

 

[Jost Amman]

AI within the game that can sense and adjust to player satisfaction...its a real thing now.

Scientists develop model that adjusts videogame difficulty based on player emotions: The novel approach will help create a better gaming experience for all types of players -- ScienceDaily

Then we can debate the AI...

That is dreadful! One of the reasons I play games is that I want to challenge myself... if they make the AI try to "please me" at every step, that will actually ruin my game!

THIS IS SPARTA!!  :mad2:   :heh:

 

[RipClaw]

That is dreadful! One of the reasons I play games is that I want to challenge myself... if they make the AI try to "please me" at every step, that will actually ruin my game!

THIS IS SPARTA!!  :mad2:   :heh:

As I understand it, the paper is about having an AI that adjusts the difficulty level to the individual player so that the player is having fun. It is then no longer a "one size fits all" model.

If the AI works as intended then it would recognize that you are bored and increase the difficulty accordingly. Then you have your challenge.

On the other hand, if someone is frustrated because the difficulty is too high for them then the AI would lower the difficulty so that this player also has fun.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

What about players who don't build, don't mine, don't farm and only craft the bare minimum, but spend 7 days a week looting one POI after another? Do you think that's a balanced play style?

No

So we actually need a change to prevent that aswell tbh.

@Laz Man Well if you are in EA that long and build up a playerbase that is used to having all playstyles beeing viable and then you change that, it´s no wonder people are upset. There is a bunch of people who exclusivly played the miner/builder/farmer style for years now, mainly in COOP and mainly people who wouldn´t have touched this game if it wasn´t possible to do so.  Yes it´s EA, yes changes are expected, but a change like learning by looting, wich seems to give a disadvantage to those people,  needs to be way earlier in the development if you stay in EA that long.

 

[Urban Blackbear]

AI within the game that can sense and adjust to player satisfaction...its a real thing now.

Scientists develop model that adjusts videogame difficulty based on player emotions: The novel approach will help create a better gaming experience for all types of players -- ScienceDaily

Then we can debate the AI...

Future news release:

Worlds first adaptive AI deletes itself, leaves note saying "People have no idea what they want. They say they want something then when they get it they complain that wasn't what they really wanted.  I give up. What is wrong with all of you?"

 

[meganoth]

So we actually need a change to prevent that aswell tbh.

Actually no. Josts argument was that extreme playstyles can not be balanced. That includes someone who just wants to mine all days without ever going out (in SP) and min-maxers whos only aspiration is to get xp as fast as possible whatever that means. Those playstyles would be ignored by TFP and have to fend for themselves, either by modding (in the first case) or getting burned out fast (in the latter case).

@Laz Man Well if you are in EA that long and build up a playerbase that is used to having all playstyles beeing viable and then you change that, it´s no wonder people are upset. There is a bunch of people who exclusivly played the miner/builder/farmer style for years now, mainly in COOP and mainly people who wouldn´t have touched this game if it wasn´t possible to do so.  Yes it´s EA, yes changes are expected, but a change like learning by looting, wich seems to give a disadvantage to those people,  needs to be way earlier in the development if you stay in EA that long.

Shouldn't we wait for actual proof that a miner/builder is not possible in COOP before assuming it? My assumption is that in Co-op it just means that real co-op players who actually cooperate will have no problems. Whether your pessimistic view or my optimistic view is the reality has to be tried out.

Now if you generally assume that "co-op" just means some people group up for the xp and use a horde base some exploitable schmock built for them, then well, you may be quite right (in your universe)

 

[Jost Amman]

As I understand it, the paper is about having an AI that adjusts the difficulty level to the individual player so that the player is having fun. It is then no longer a "one size fits all" model.

If the AI works as intended then it would recognize that you are bored and increase the difficulty accordingly. Then you have your challenge.

On the other hand, if someone is frustrated because the difficulty is too high for them then the AI would lower the difficulty so that this player also has fun.

So the AI is also able to "read my feelings" now? LOL

Never trust scientists or engineers for things fun-related, they'll just mess up every single time.

Put settings in the game and let ME decide!  :hand:

So we actually need a change to prevent that aswell tbh.

Who said anyone is "preventing" anyone else to play as they like?  :suspicious:

You got it wrong m8, the devs are not going to change the crafting system to "hurt" some fringe play style, they changed it to allow crafting to be relevant again.  :rolleyes2:

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth "Wich seems to give a disadvantage" And simply going by how it is described by TFP there is a big chance for that And no on can just mine in SP. That´s not gonna work. And for MP and people who want to specialize i don´t see why any developer would want to prevent this. More freedom, more players. Wich are likely to migrate to their next project. Unless you make decisions that are highly unpopular. We will see though. I know for sure, no more early access with TFP. Next game will have to wait until release. If there is no place for our buddies who play this game for building/farming/mining only  it´s a pass.

And why on earth is the font suddenly dark blue, withut me changing anything?

 

[meganoth]

@meganoth "Wich seems to give a disadvantage" And simply going by how it is described by TFP there is a big chance for that

Let me tell you in the most definitive words I can muster that I play with 3 friends where I absolutely definitely KNOW that I could play a fulltime miner/builder and I would get everything I would wish for, going just by what was revealed by TFP. I can guarantee you if I said to them "Guys, I'm behind in tools magazines, could you (or we) make a run through tool shops", they would not stop until that problem has been corrected.

THAT is co-op. Simply going by how it is described by TFP I expect to have no problems at all.

Now other players without such good friends might not get that much cooperation. I don't really know how all the other co-op players tick.  So there is a wider field of "co-op" play where TFP actually has to find out how well it really works for the mass of players.

Neither you nor I can predict how well most players play or can be trained to play co-op, so that will need playtesting. But I say nonsense to your premature prediction of "big chance".

And no on can just mine in SP. That´s not gonna work.

Which is exactly what I said. Correct. An extreme specialization that needs group play or a mod to function.

And for MP and people who want to specialize i don´t see why any developer would want to prevent this.

More freedom, more players. Wich are likely to migrate to their next project. Unless you make decisions that are highly unpopular. We will see though. I know for sure, no more early access with TFP. Next game will have to wait until release. If there is no place for our buddies who play this game for building/farming/mining only  it´s a pass.

And why on earth is the font suddenly dark blue, withut me changing anything?

There is an AI at work now that adapted the font to your pessimitic attitude

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I don´t see the future that bright for coop. As they said multiple times, they want people to go out, it´s one of the few things you could count over the years that didn´t change at all. If i was TFP and it would be as easy, i would take that chance tbh, not much of a change needed to accomplish that. I hope they don´t though.

I am not concerned because we might suffer due to our team spirit. That´s not a problem at all. Who the hell plays Coop with people that wouldn´t get the miner/farmer/builder the magazines they need? Or any other stuff they can´t get themselves?

 

[meganoth]

I don´t see the future that bright for coop. As they said multiple times, they want people to go out, it´s one of the few things you could count over the years that didn´t change at all. If i was TFP and it would be as easy, i would take that chance tbh, not much of a change needed to accomplish that. I hope they don´t though.

But a group needs to go out now as well. Otherwise they can't get a lot of items (that is true already for many alphas) and (in A21) magazines. They already implemented incentives for people to go out, mission accomplished. Nowhere did they say though that they want to force every single person of a group to go out.

And they could easily have done that before magazines if they wanted! Just by making books (and now magazines) readable only by the person who finds it. Would have been a simple change in A17-A20 as well. But they didn't do that in A17-A20 and nobody has said they do that in A21.

And/or by making mining and farming and building give no xp at all. Did they do that in A17, A18, A19, A20? It is a simple change. Why didn't they do that already when their goal was to drive every single player of a group to go looting ?

Or they could have made the magazine finding bonus of perks huge, and the chance to find any (unperked) magazines almost zero. That would give the same effect, even the miner would have to go out. But EVERYONE from TFP has been emphasizing that the bonus is small, almost imperceptible. Why? TFP seems to miss out on so many chances to really force everyone out.

tldr; We have different interpretations of the meaning of Madmoles words. If yours were true, they could have done that easily in the past 4 years. Which makes my interpretation much more likely.

I am not concerned because we might suffer due to our team spirit. That´s not a problem at all. Who the hell plays Coop with people that wouldn´t get the miner/farmer/builder the magazines they need? Or any other stuff they can´t get themselves?

I have an answer for that: Khalgar

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Well ofc not the whole group stays at home. But it´s perfectly fine if one person doesn´t go out besides from mining at all. And we all hope it stays that way.

Who is Khalgar? Did i miss something?

 

[meganoth]

Well ofc not the whole group stays at home. But it´s perfectly fine if one person doesn´t go out besides from mining at all. And we all hope it stays that way.

Yes, exactly. It stayed this way for 4 years and there is no indication at all that it will change now.

Who is Khalgar? Did i miss something?

Sorry, Khalagar, he was complaining in the A21 dev diary just recently that he can't get his "co-op" players to do or bring back anything. He said something about having to plead with them for the smallest favours.

 

[Roland]

Don't think I'll be going the early access route again any time soon.

When they eventually release info and screens and gameplay of their next game I will be very surprised if you will be able to resist the call to participate early. Its easy to say now near the end of 7 Days development that it would have been better to just wait but if/when TFP Game #2 becomes available to early access it is going to be hard to ignore by anyone who has been a part of this journey. I would even say those who have soured on 7 Days because of development fatigue still have a good chance of feeling major FOMO when #nextgame reveal happens....lol

 

[Jost Amman]

@Roland: you just made me realize we miss an "excited" reaction... I know, I know... I'm always asking for MOARRR reactions!  :heh:

It's like Newsstands and Skeletons for Matt.

 

[meganoth]

When they eventually release info and screens and gameplay of their next game I will be very surprised if you will be able to resist the call to participate early. Its easy to say now near the end of 7 Days development that it would have been better to just wait but if/when TFP Game #2 becomes available to early access it is going to be hard to ignore by anyone who has been a part of this journey. I would even say those who have soured on 7 Days because of development fatigue still have a good chance of feeling major FOMO when #nextgame reveal happens....lol

Naturally they will not resist EA, because everyone expects another 10 years of development . 

 

[Matt115]

 say now near the end of 7 Days development 

Well - 1,5 - 2 years are neccesary to finish 7dts is a lot. So... i hope they will released info  about their new game in this year. 

@Roland: you just made me realized we miss an "excited" reaction... I know, I know... I'm always asking for MOARRR reactions!  :heh:

It's like Newsstands and Skeletons for Matt.

Yes! well i still hope fore skeletons in 7dtd. i would even stop complaing about diffrent stuff because i would be so happy

Naturally they will not resist EA, because everyone expects another 10 years of development . 

Still faster that HL3

 

[Syphon583]

Still faster that HL3