PC Game development "models" and player satisfaction

[warmer]

The one who controls the games development are the ones that are doing the developing. Whether or not they take our feedback into consideration is entirely up to them. I am not sure I understand why someone posts a question like unless they feel they are owed something beyond the game they already got their fun tokens worth out of...
 

It just strikes me as pretentious to assume your feelings of "going in the wrong direction" is going to bear a significant weight into how they have been developing a game for a decade now. Keep in mind, I have read they are going in the wrong direction for at least as long as I have been in this forum, and they keep going in "their" direction. 
 

It also seems kind of related to this notion we have now were everyone thinks their opinion matters on what other people are doing. Your two cents only matter if they already tangentially align with the direction they intend on going. How many copies did you buy, now divide that by how many they sold.
 

The resulting fraction of a percent is how much they care about you saying they are going in the wrong direction. 
 

Instead of expecting the devs to make the game you want, you should learn how to mod the game to suit your taste. It is IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone in a vanilla 1.0 version, and they have given us the framework to make that possible if we care enough to put in the time. There is obvious passion in posts like this, so turn those finger clicks into .xml edits and you are halfway to your desired end goal.

 

[Rotor]

Yep, early accesss is a double edge sword.  I bought this game because family had played and they talked me into it.  Although I find myself playing exclusively SP, due to the others having RL inteference, I am enjoying it.

A couple of thoughts on EA games (not the trademark), I try not to.  In theory is cool, but you do get some curve balls, and some times a nasty slider.  OTOH you get to play early at the cost of not being new any more.  There are all sort of ifs/buts/thens like that.

When SWG first came out it was not finished....based on what I read neither was Cyberpunk2077, but they were pushed out.   That is almost a 30 years spread in game development cycles.  However,  it is an economics thing which has not changed. In theory EA is supposed to help with that, but you get cut and cut hard.

You never forget your first, but I learned then not to get attached to any game, and I try not to EA.  I do love the passion, it reminds of when I used to care .  This is only my second EA, StarCitizen being the other in almost 30+ years of PC gaming to date.

Edit:  Not 30+ my public education math failed me.  "Almost 30 years"

 

[Melange]

it reminds of when I used to care

I am laughing. I used to care too. Thanks for the reminder. 

 

[Rotor]

Actually 20 years is more like it for developement gap between the two games.  I see that SWG was released in 2003.

Somehow I thought it was clsoer to my when I bought my first computer in 1995 heh.  Ah those were the days when 56k was all the rage.  I think @Maharin still trying to play 7D2D in his from then.

 

[meganoth]

I have a few early access games. Green Hell was stellar. Mist Survival I bought to support the one man dev team: it's a fun diversion to play and is still being worked on albeit slowly. Outlaws of the Old West ended up being a scam imo - they closed shop and never finished the game.

I don't know Outlaws of the Old West, but if your only indication is that they stopped developing the game then you should take into account that EA is a method of financing a game that is much like gambling. A developer gambles on getting enough interest in a game so that sales finance his development. In a game that isn't a big hit that might mean working with just enough money to make the next patch in the hope of getting some more positive reviews, exposure and sales from word-of-mouth. Any new alpha that is down-voted on steam can spell the end of your financial means. 

You can blame such a developer for not finding his audience and inability to make a good game, but not that he was dishonest and trying to scam. Again, I don't know anything about Outlaws..., maybe it really was a scam.

I will carefully look to see if any future game offerings have even a remote connection to that house of b@$t@rds. Raft was an interesting and fun experiment to partake in.

Our 7DtD is kinda different. But I've been smacked in the face before by the devs. Wish they'd have put in the bandits long ago and moved on to their new project. The Devil wears Pravda? Nah, the Devil is a mild mannered well-dressed trader who's shop sits on stilts. Speaks kindly, but has a deathgrip on the game.

Don't think I'll be going the early access route again any time soon.

 

[Matt115]

And I am sure there are more Matt. Early access...we take a chance. But I never regarded 7dtd to be really broken. Problems, exploits, well maybe. But broken gameplay that we have to get another change in gamestyle? I don't see that being the case.

Well - Contagion "manage" to left EA but... honestly this was just formal left. Because this game is soo empty - almost nothing to do and just RNG. You have to find key items like keys, wire tool etc. but you can run around few hours and don't find nothing or you can radomly find everything near place where you have to uses -  on some maps zombie spawn endless while some maps are so empty, tons of bugs and more and more

I think "early stage" pools asking  about things like " if we decided to create similiar  game to 7dtd - which setting you want to in this game - medieval, sci fi, japan etc." would be pretty cool

 

[Melange]

I don't know Outlaws of the Old West, but if your only indication is that they stopped developing the game then you should take into account that EA is a method of financing a game that is much like gambling. A developer gambles on getting enough interest in a game so that sales finance his development. In a game that isn't a big hit that might mean working with just enough money to make the next patch in the hope of getting some more positive reviews, exposure and sales from word-of-mouth. Any new alpha that is down-voted on steam can spell the end of your financial means. 

You can blame such a developer for not finding his audience and inability to make a good game, but not that he was dishonest and trying to scam. Again, I don't know anything about Outlaws..., maybe it really was a scam.

Meg, its a game currently in 'Paused Alpha'. Still available on Steam. The parent company owns ARK. The game, even unfinished, was good, but it was abandoned. Yep, $. Both the developer and those who purchased it took a chance.  They took it in the shorts much more than we did I'll bet, and there was a potential update yet lawyers got involved and that was squished. I stand by my definition of scam. ARK I find unsavory in and of itself (I own a copy). But that's not relevant here. Or maybe it is...

Many good Eastern European programmers lost their job too. I know their origin because when the game first came out, they didn't do a good job of  concealing the code. I didn't hack it, but I read it.  They didn't follow a core directive...it was a working haphazard mess with poor naming conventions. Maybe that was one of the reasons it wasn't pursued. Too much to clean up. Quick dash for cash,  coupled with poor project management.

No, not drawing any comparison to 7dtd. Just reinforcing my claim of 'scam'.

 

[Maharin]

I voted the last option, no control.  Without getting too wordy it comes down to the simple fact that absolutely nothing would ever get done if everything was done by committee.  Every issue has various perspectives and will cause division of the user base no matter what decisions are made and no matter who is making those decisions.

While recent posts suggest TFP might be dumb, I think they're making this game in the best way possible.  They are presenting their game, their vision, and giving us every opportunity to change it to match our own vision of the game.  Everybody wins and nobody loses as long as people realize TFP's version is all their own and not up for negotiation (meaning they are in control, not us).

 

[Matt115]

I voted the last option, no control.  Without getting too wordy it comes down to the simple fact that absolutely nothing would ever get done if everything was done by committee.  Every issue has various perspectives and will cause division of the user base no matter what decisions are made and no matter who is making those decisions.

While recent posts suggest TFP might be dumb, I think they're making this game in the best way possible.  They are presenting their game, their vision, and giving us every opportunity to change it to match our own vision of the game.  Everybody wins and nobody loses as long as people realize TFP's version is all their own and not up for negotiation (meaning they are in control, not us).

I would agree but....   "They are presenting their game, their vision, and giving us every opportunity to change it to match our own vision of the game." They change vision drasticly during development.  If you played in A11 for example you would see base for typical hardcore survive game. Now it's casual so much. So no. Not everybody wins. And i'm not only thinking about this like that - i think @pApA^LeGBa can agree. Meat smell, food spolining , dark (visibility is very important too) etc. This sound like typical hardcore game - tell me - how i could expect that 7dtd will be casual game in future? Project zomboid is still hardcore game welll i don't remember well games in EA from 2013-2016 period but i don't remember so drastic change like 7dtd

 

[Maharin]

I would agree but....   "They are presenting their game, their vision, and giving us every opportunity to change it to match our own vision of the game." They change vision drasticly during development.  If you played in A11 for example you would see base for typical hardcore survive game. Now it's casual so much. So no. Not everybody wins. And i'm not only thinking about this like that - i think @pApA^LeGBa can agree. Meat smell, food spolining , dark (visibility is very important too) etc. This sound like typical hardcore game - tell me - how i could expect that 7dtd will be casual game in future? Project zomboid is still hardcore game welll i don't remember well games in EA from 2013-2016 period but i don't remember so drastic change like 7dtd

I don't think you understand what I am saying.  But let's back up a bit to make one thing clear... changes during ALPHA should not ever be considered changes in "their vision" unless the posted goals of the game are modified.

Having said that, what I said earlier is that there will definitely be people making overhaul mods that essentially turn 7DTD into 7DTD2 or whatever.  It will happen.  And I have been around since A11.    I bought the game at the end of 2014 which was during A10.  Incidentally, 2014 saw at least 4 different alpha versions.  If I had known it existed before then I would have jumped on the Kickstarter.

 

[Matt115]

I don't think you understand what I am saying.  But let's back up a bit to make one thing clear... changes during ALPHA should not ever be considered changes in "their vision" unless the posted goals of the game are modified.

Having said that, what I said earlier is that there will definitely be people making overhaul mods that essentially turn 7DTD into 7DTD2 or whatever.  It will happen.  And I have been around since A11.    I bought the game at the end of 2014 which was during A10.  Incidentally, 2014 saw at least 4 different alpha versions.  If I had known it existed before then I would have jumped on the Kickstarter.

So you know how gameplay looks then and now. So you could "experience" how their vision change. 

"making overhaul mods that essentially turn 7DTD into 7DTD2 or whatever.  It will happen " I think it won't happend. There will be just This same overhauls that are now avaliable and nothing bigger - because if someone would do something like this that would be mean is working now about something like that. This 7dtd. Even linear mods for hl2 take a lot of times.Big overhauls even more  star wars bf2 - bf3  legancy mode take +-15 years to made

 

[Maharin]

So you know how gameplay looks then and now. So you could "experience" how their vision change. 

"making overhaul mods that essentially turn 7DTD into 7DTD2 or whatever.  It will happen " I think it won't happend. There will be just This same overhauls that are now avaliable and nothing bigger - because if someone would do something like this that would be mean is working now about something like that. This 7dtd. Even linear mods for hl2 take a lot of times.Big overhauls even more  star wars bf2 - bf3  legancy mode take +-15 years to made

Do you realize that there are still HUGE mods being made for Half Life 2?  That's a lot of years of mods to still be having huge ones released.

Never say never.  It will happen.  The reasons for it not happening so far is that modding is still a moving target since the game is still in alpha.  Once the game releases and mods get integrated with Steam Workshop then the number of mods will explode.

 

[Matt115]

Do you realize that there are still HUGE mods being made for Half Life 2?  That's a lot of years of mods to still be having huge ones released.

Never say never.  It will happen.  The reasons for it not happening so far is that modding is still a moving target since the game is still in alpha.  Once the game releases and mods get integrated with Steam Workshop then the number of mods will explode.

Yes i realised. that's why i wrote it's take a years to create such big mods. Years.  so maybe yo are right but who cares what will happens after for example 10 years?  So - there is no chance for 7dtd dlc. No chances -if 7dtd wasn't moddable - probably we would get few big dlc like in Ark or Conan situation. Still better to pay that wait 10 years.

and..." number of mods will explode." this is nothing good. Because this don't mean quality will be good. Well  Enemy territor was killed by bad quality mods. So workshop don't mean good quality of mods right?

"Never say never."  Yeah but other hand?  after so long ago it's became too late. I know a lot of good games. But after 10-15 well it's to late to came back to this games. For many reasons

 

[RipClaw]

The result, though, is that, like in real life, if you choose an unbalanced way of life (read gameplay), sooner or later you're going to pay for it. You're surely free to do that, but then you can't really complain that your free extreme choice caused you problems!

Just out of curiosity. What is your idea of a balanced play style in terms of how much time to spend on looting, mining, building or farming?

Usually, when I play a game, I learn the rules, and try to beat the game (or the other player if in PvP) by using the rules to my advantage.

That sounds to me a lot like a Min / Max play style.

 

[Jost Amman]

That sounds to me a lot like a Min / Max play style.

Think more like Chess: you can ONLY win by following the rules, there's no leeway for cheesing or cheating.  

Just out of curiosity. What is your idea of a balanced play style in terms of how much time to spend on looting, mining, building or farming?

Balanced is to not completely ignore one or more parts of the game that the devs included as "intended to be used".

An extreme example would be to ignore skills/perks: that would be very hard, maybe even fun, but sure as heck unbalanced!  :juggle:

 

[Laz Man]

The way I see it, some player angst when things change stem from the following.

1)  Game has been in public EA for so long some people are either burnt out on changes and/or looking for new content (e.g. new vehicles, quests, etc.)

2) Game is perceived as a "Sandbox" of mechanics and options that player should have full control on how to use or not use.

 

[RipClaw]

Balanced is to not completely ignore one or more parts of the game that the devs included as "intended to be used".

An extreme example would be to ignore skills/perks: that would be very hard, maybe even fun, but sure as heck unbalanced!  :juggle:

What about players who don't build, don't mine, don't farm and only craft the bare minimum, but spend 7 days a week looting one POI after another? Do you think that's a balanced play style?

 

[Matt115]

The way I see it, some player angst when things change stem from the following.

1)  Game has been in public EA for so long some people are either burnt out on changes and/or looking for new content (e.g. new vehicles, quests, etc.)

2) Game is perceived as a "Sandbox" of mechanics and options that player should have full control on how to use or not use.

Well... new content is the best exctining thing

 

[Jost Amman]

What about players who don't build, don't mine, don't farm and only craft the bare minimum, but spend 7 days a week looting one POI after another? Do you think that's a balanced play style?

No

Well... new content is the best exctining thing

Especially if it's newsstands and skeletons!  arty:  

 

[Matt115]

No

Especially if it's newsstands and skeletons!  arty:  

Yes. Honestly this would something that could make me happy.Rly i would be so happy about that