dont the modders deserve early access too?
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Pille
Prefab Creator and Great Galactic Imperator
The vast majority that say "this is exciting!" consists of (successful) streamers.^^ Ofc there are some people (non streamers) who like the event. That's positive power of the internet: No matter how terrible your actions are, you will always find users that appreciate your wrongdoings. ;P
Imagine the reactions if TFP would say 'we're holding the game back for marketing reasons...' :smile-new:
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dont the modders deserve early access too?
I for one am not a twitch watching kinda person. However I totally plan on watching the stream event, just not enough to ruin all the cool new stuff. Probably just enough to see MM mess up a few times. While I watch I'll probably be playing this cool game I got for like $20 called 7 Days to Die. It's currently on Alpha 16 and I've had it for years but they keep basically re-writing the game every couple of months so I deff got my monies worth.
What would really suck is if they released it at quitting time on Friday, bugs and all, and then didn't fix a thing until Monday; or scrambled together some shoddy fix over the weekend just to make it playable while they sort through thousands of bug reports from people who had problems on the weekend. This way the streamers get to catch the few show-stopping bugs and by the time I get home on Monday night it'll be ready to play! And lets face it, none of us are going to be responsible and go to bed at a decent hour once this thing drops! So I say thanks TFP, and Roland for constantly taking a beating!
I for one am not a twitch watching kinda person. However I totally plan on watching the stream event, just not enough to ruin all the cool new stuff. Probably just enough to see MM mess up a few times. While I watch I'll probably be playing this cool game I got for like $20 called 7 Days to Die. It's currently on Alpha 16 and I've had it for years but they keep basically re-writing the game every couple of months so I deff got my monies worth.
What would really suck is if they released it at quitting time on Friday, bugs and all, and then didn't fix a thing until Monday; or scrambled together some shoddy fix over the weekend just to make it playable while they sort through thousands of bug reports from people who had problems on the weekend. This way the streamers get to catch the few show-stopping bugs and by the time I get home on Monday night it'll be ready to play! And lets face it, none of us are going to be responsible and go to bed at a decent hour once this thing drops! So I say thanks TFP, and Roland for constantly taking a beating!
Roland
Moderator
Terrible action?
Wrongdoing?
I think you need some perspective. Every single customer has received exactly what they were promised: Early access to a development build of the game. During the streaming event any player in the world who has access can play 7 Days to Die. It will be A16 or earlier that they are playing but they will not lose access for even a moment of the streaming event.
If this event is what really constitutes terrible actions and wrongdoing it is amazing that TFP wasn't shut down after the A16 streaming event. How is it that such a horrible and immoral business practice resulted in the largest player spike in the game's history and inspired the developers to increase the scope?
If such a monstrous choice was made so publicly you would think the outcry would dampen the release. The backlash would send the business the message to never do it again. And yet the results speak to the exact opposite. Like I said, if the actual results of the A16 stream event supported yours and Kubikus' opinions I would give them more credence. In fact, we probably wouldn't be gearing up to do it again as we would be saying things like, "Gosh, all the people who were upset about the A16 stream event announcement were right! They called it perfectly!! We better NEVER try something so stupid again!!!"
Instead...the opposite is the historically factual result. And it wasn't some fringe group with some weird fetish that appreciated the A16 event. It was general and unassailable success.
I'm sure the reactions would be explosive. But TFP doesn't have to say that because it isn't true. The update will be on a Monday regardless of what transpires on the Friday - Sunday before that. Cynical minds like yours won't believe it no matter what I or anyone else says. You'll just smile and wink and say "Riiiiiiiiiiiiight....". But I can't help you with that.
Pille
Prefab Creator and Great Galactic Imperator
Wow you took everything I said seriously... Next time I should refrain from using any exaggerations, irony and other statements that could be misunderstood.
To make it clear: You didn't read my perceptive. It was just the typical perceptive of a users that doesn't like the streaming event.
To make it clear: You didn't read my perceptive. It was just the typical perceptive of a users that doesn't like the streaming event.
Reality doesn't matter (see Madmole's extremely cautious attempt to give an estimation for a release date. It became a promise in no time). Thus, it doesn't matter what was really promised.
I meant villainous actions and crimes against humanity, sorry.
Whatever. You should never get personal.
From which point of view? Business, Strengthening of the user base, improvement of the FTP's reputation (note: I am not saying that TFP have a bed rep.) or something else?
Maybe the customers answer is delayed and reads 'we don't buy another game from this company' (unlikely, I know) but we don't know. Just want to say that your perspective looks shortsighted and oversimplified to me.
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Roland
Moderator
If you were being facetious you hid it well. If you were striving for sounding like a typical naysayer then you hit the nail on the head. I didn’t see anything that sounded like hyperbole that anyone else who hates the idea of the stream event hasn’t said before. 
If you’d gone with villainy and Crimes against humanity from the start I probably would’ve picked up on it.
Also, saying that you have a cynical mind is not an insult. In fact, many would take it as a compliment.
If you’d gone with villainy and Crimes against humanity from the start I probably would’ve picked up on it.
Also, saying that you have a cynical mind is not an insult. In fact, many would take it as a compliment.
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Pille
Prefab Creator and Great Galactic Imperator
Ok, back to topic:
I would like to have a voting system giving 'good' modders a chance to get 'early early access'. This might bolster the modding community a bit.
Well, to be honest, I got triggered by Roland's comments which seemed to be a bit onesided to me (if I read such onesided stuff, I feel the urgent need to represent the other site). So there is nothing else I have to say regarding the actual topic atm.^^
I would like to have a voting system giving 'good' modders a chance to get 'early early access'. This might bolster the modding community a bit.
Well, to be honest, I got triggered by Roland's comments which seemed to be a bit onesided to me (if I read such onesided stuff, I feel the urgent need to represent the other site). So there is nothing else I have to say regarding the actual topic atm.^^
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Roland
Moderator
Lol..
Kubikus: Nobody likes the stream event.
Roland: Some don’t, some are ambivalent, and some are excited and do love it.
Kubikus: No Roland, nobody likes it.
Yep, I’m the one-sided one....
Anyway... I would love to see the modders get the xml files concurrently with the event but not just the most popular. (I’m never doing another Forum popularity vote). It would have to be available to all modders.
The problem is that the owners aren’t especially partial to the idea. They aren’t sure yet whether they want to even release the patch notes early.
Guppycur
Well-known member
Is... Any thread safe from #streamergate?
Kub, gotta ask homie... What do you hope to accomplish? Realistically?
Pimps determined this is a good idea as marketing strategy. Right, wrong, indifferent, it doesn't matter... Their pilot program last year was deemed a success, and they took feedback into account and decided to do it again this year, AND on a larger scale.
What's your goal, besides wearing out qwerty?
Serious question.
Kub, gotta ask homie... What do you hope to accomplish? Realistically?
Pimps determined this is a good idea as marketing strategy. Right, wrong, indifferent, it doesn't matter... Their pilot program last year was deemed a success, and they took feedback into account and decided to do it again this year, AND on a larger scale.
What's your goal, besides wearing out qwerty?
Serious question.
random person
New member
now that a good question
if the devs wont release the game 3 days earlier anyway, how does it hurt if we watch some videos of it?!
i mean, if you dont like it dont watch it, let other people enjoy it...
JaxTeller718
New member
Realistically this whole thread is pointless. No offense intended but its not pointless because of the intentions of it. Its pointless because at this point its everyone barking at the moon.
Yes mods kept this game in the public eye far longer than without. If you don't believe that go ask ANY streamer who isn't interested in PR that has played mods what they ALL say. That they have a hard time going back to vanilla after playing mods. Some had even sworn off vanilla.
If ONLY vanilla existed i would guarantee you the viewership and word of mouth this game generates as of today would be sliced in half. Go check Twitchs 7 Days channel. Now go count how many are playing a straight vanilla game vs how many are playing mods. Its just a fact that mods prolong the life of any game but in particular with an update over a year out you better bet your bottom dollar that mods reigned in a much more vocal community and satisfied a rabid crowd.
But in the end it doesn't even matter. Modders do NOT put money in the Pimps pocket, we technically just keep the game hype alive while they work on the next Alpha. We ARE the streamer event for 362 Days of the year when the other ones who reap the benefits are doing all they can to generate hype for their own brand with other games. Modders generate hype for the Pimps every day of the year. I mean realistically, hate the streamer event, throw darts at Rolands picture, boycott the stream event. There is not a single one of us who will NOT be playing on release day (well except those unfortunate to be called away for real life matters). I dare you to find me one person who is going to NOT update because they are mad with the Pimps decision to give streamers 3 early days.
It is what it is and the sooner we accept the less angry we will be. Raising a stink last year did not get modders access, and doing it again next year won't either.
Yes mods kept this game in the public eye far longer than without. If you don't believe that go ask ANY streamer who isn't interested in PR that has played mods what they ALL say. That they have a hard time going back to vanilla after playing mods. Some had even sworn off vanilla.
If ONLY vanilla existed i would guarantee you the viewership and word of mouth this game generates as of today would be sliced in half. Go check Twitchs 7 Days channel. Now go count how many are playing a straight vanilla game vs how many are playing mods. Its just a fact that mods prolong the life of any game but in particular with an update over a year out you better bet your bottom dollar that mods reigned in a much more vocal community and satisfied a rabid crowd.
But in the end it doesn't even matter. Modders do NOT put money in the Pimps pocket, we technically just keep the game hype alive while they work on the next Alpha. We ARE the streamer event for 362 Days of the year when the other ones who reap the benefits are doing all they can to generate hype for their own brand with other games. Modders generate hype for the Pimps every day of the year. I mean realistically, hate the streamer event, throw darts at Rolands picture, boycott the stream event. There is not a single one of us who will NOT be playing on release day (well except those unfortunate to be called away for real life matters). I dare you to find me one person who is going to NOT update because they are mad with the Pimps decision to give streamers 3 early days.
It is what it is and the sooner we accept the less angry we will be. Raising a stink last year did not get modders access, and doing it again next year won't either.
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Gazz
Fun Pimps Staff
That's all true and the modders don't actually raise a stink, either. They know very well that they get supported more than would be necessary for just releasing the game. =P
It's rather the white knights fighting the good fight... because of reasons.
For TFP it would be no PR advantage whatsoever to have people looking at XML files. That usually doesn't make for interesting footage.
It's rather the white knights fighting the good fight... because of reasons.
For TFP it would be no PR advantage whatsoever to have people looking at XML files. That usually doesn't make for interesting footage.
SylenThunder
Community Moderator / IT Guru
Agreed. And even if we got some things like the XML or assets, it would be basically useless without a running client. I mean I could slap some stuff together and it might save me a few hours of coding, but without the ability to test the end results could be disastrous. And trying to find the needle after you've altered 800 lines of code in 7 different files isn't fun.That's all true and the modders don't actually raise a stink, either. They know very well that they get supported more than would be necessary for just releasing the game. =P
It's rather the white knights fighting the good fight... because of reasons.
For TFP it would be no PR advantage whatsoever to have people looking at XML files. That usually doesn't make for interesting footage.
Kubikus
New member
As I already said, I understand people like watching streams. And those who are excited probably don't actually understand what's going on or are blinded by the idea that something is exclusive. Like exclusivness would be a good thing, in this case.
If you tell people what's going on, you'll get these two groups. Maybe there are some who are happy for the streamer, that the streamer gets an exclusive deal, cuz certainly that's good for the streamer. So there's another group. Your group of people who like that they can't play does not exist. At least I never saw a single person with such an opinion and it does not makes sense either.
Could you lay out how it is pleasing people? The only thing I can think of is the free keys. What else could be pleasing people? That streamers stream A17 three days before everybody can play? Is that, like, "great"?
It certainly is not.
A bad decision by the company does not mean my logic is faulty.
Of course it is. The version the streamers use will be the same as the one the rest of us get on Monday. So it's obviously held back. It would even be held back if there was no stream event, but the version that exist on a Friday would not be released before Monday.
But "would not" does not equal "could not" and instead of canceling the event you could also just move it to the next Monday and if you think that Friday is better, because people are having a free weekend, you confirm my argument that a Friday is the ideal release day. In any case it could be released on any day of the week and most certainly could it be released on the same day streamers get access.
I know that the players don't have a choice. But the company does. And I'm not making it up that the company has that choice, you try to frame the situation like the company's decision was some kind of cosmic law that cannot be broken.
I mean, you are technically right. You can declare the whole thing an "exclusive media preview". But compared to other exclusive media previews, yours is a bit... Hey: Adorable. :-D Because all you have is a buggy experimental of another alpha of an unfinished game. Like you could compare that with gameplay footage of the next DooM. There is also the fact that the version we get is the same, and that we get it, what?, 1 second after the event? If it was a couple weeks earlier, it would be a different story.
I happened to find an explanation on the stream event page:
As I mentioned, you could avoid the players disgruntlement by giving the streamers access on a Monday as well. However, the argument for Mondays is not quite valid either. If a new alpha was released once a month: Alright. Employees should have their free weekend. But after a year, this argument ain't flyin. Tens of thousands of excited fans have to wait three more days, cuz Joel and the devs wanna go fishing?
We have an impasse because you're either incapable or not allowed to see company decisions sceptical and realistically.
I agree that we disagree. And then..?
Actually, the situtation is like a company who ran a fairly clumsy marketing stunt last year, that already displeased a large number of people back then. But instead of improving it, the company makes the same mistakes again, and every time it is being brought up on a company forum, and be it in a subsentence, the chief moderator in charge unpacks his rhetorical toolbox in order to devalue the criticism with a fairly wide array of methods, that does, though, not include logic, reason and high quality techniques alike.
I am in favor of a stream event, it's a good idea. That is why my perspective is not one sided at all. My approach is inclusive. As always, btw, just get over those brief flashes of self-approval that sometimes sparkle in my posts, and you'll see that I always argue for the greater good that is agreeable for everyone involved.Ofc you both are one-sided.
In this case, the only alteration to the organisation I suggest is to give everybody access, preferably on a Friday. The company still has 100 streamers streaming the game, the streamers still have keys to give away and can hype the event as some official stuff to attract people, and people can play and watch their favorite streamer.
That way, everybody could be happy. And there is no data availabe, thus neither proof, nor evidence, that this approach would negatively affect the company's profit.
I'm trying to mod 1 block ingress back into the game. Isn't that obvious.
I don't know what's going on, but here's my Twoonie.
I don't think that the XML's will be of much help to modders, even after the experimental is released, because their mods can and will continue to break when updates to 7dtd gets pushed. Sure, they can get their mod updated and have it working for a while, but who knows when it'll break again? I don't see much point in giving them a couple days head start. I don't say this lightly; I have a mod for Factorio which is still in heavy development, and about every other update breaks it.
I'm excited for the stream event. Streamers are the reason I even got 7dtd, and by extension, my wife and her brother. I enjoy watching them explore and experience the game through their own playstyle. If I have to wait 3 days before I get the same version, it just gives me more reason to watch them.
Kubikus, I'm not sure what decision you think was made by TFP that is a bad thing. Is it the decision to do a streamer event? Is it the choice not to do a release on a Friday? (I think Roland mentioned that, and I'm not surprised. The biggest and worst games are usually within 48 hours of a release, so don't do it when the team has gone home for the weekend)
Also, just because there's an event doesn't mean that we would have gotten the experimental any earlier if there weren't an event. The streamers are getting an experimental experimental version.
I don't think that the XML's will be of much help to modders, even after the experimental is released, because their mods can and will continue to break when updates to 7dtd gets pushed. Sure, they can get their mod updated and have it working for a while, but who knows when it'll break again? I don't see much point in giving them a couple days head start. I don't say this lightly; I have a mod for Factorio which is still in heavy development, and about every other update breaks it.
I'm excited for the stream event. Streamers are the reason I even got 7dtd, and by extension, my wife and her brother. I enjoy watching them explore and experience the game through their own playstyle. If I have to wait 3 days before I get the same version, it just gives me more reason to watch them.
Kubikus, I'm not sure what decision you think was made by TFP that is a bad thing. Is it the decision to do a streamer event? Is it the choice not to do a release on a Friday? (I think Roland mentioned that, and I'm not surprised. The biggest and worst games are usually within 48 hours of a release, so don't do it when the team has gone home for the weekend)
Also, just because there's an event doesn't mean that we would have gotten the experimental any earlier if there weren't an event. The streamers are getting an experimental experimental version.