PC Devs, is this balancing possible or are we set on direction?

[RestInPieces]

Why is it about getting levels? I just play the game. Even when things were gated behind books I didn't go raid Crack-a-Books for the stuff; I just went about doing what seemed good for my character's survival.

I don't doubt that is how you play the game, but the fact remains that the game itself creates a tendency for something. It's natural for a lot of people to see it as a "zombie grind" if the game motivates you to level up and killing zombies is the best way to achieve that.

Keep in mind that you do not only get XP from harvesting.You also get to keep the resources and build a mighty fortress for the zombies to turn into rubble. =)

That's why I said above that xp sources should be as balanced as possible in order for the player's actions to be affected mostly by his survival needs and preferences. And killing zombies also nets you with extra gains, when looting POIs etc. Imo don't try to balance exp of activities, also considering the benefits of activities - xp benefits are a different kind of animal.

 

[Poojam]

I think there is a lot of balancing to do. Talking with friends last night the thing to consider is are we chasing off new players? The nerf to mining has been huge. Its not just xp/skill nerf but also the pace is nerfed drastically with the stamina limitations. How much wandering around will a new player put up with as they just don't have the skill for most of the POI's. Since there is FAR less loot, harder to gain resources, new players might just give up with the pace of advancing. This nerf feels more so if your a solo player as it feels like to get into any larger POI's you better be in a team or player level 100+. I fully understand a slower progression, but right now I think there is just way too much grind. Harder play can be done with the mods, but if the base game does not hook players, there won't be new players. The ultra hard players are the small part of the gamer pool, don't loose the rest to the desires of the top 10% of players. Things like the last room on a quest filled with 5 feral and tight room, yea is that really a tier 1 quest?

I think it's far more likely that the new players will buy the game because they want a Fallout clone/action RPG experience, and enjoy it. They don't know the game had depth and alternative playstyles that allowed for specialization (miner, scavenger, fighter, harvester) and permitted those players to roughly be as successful at levelling as the next. All of the people that have been around for the last few years are the ones that are disappointed. What they liked is now dead, and we have a simpler playset. The formula for survival is bonking zombies on their heads to win.

 

[gfoster610]

I would have to agree with the point that not all actions are equal at this stage. It's abundantly clear that killing zombies gives you much more XP than any other action. I would also agree that this update did push players into a certain play style.

It's not only that, but how slowly you build/dig/etc besides killing at the start. I rolled mine back to A16 and started a new game.

It's like night an day comparison to A17. I could dig down 5 blocks easily 5 times faster in A16 than A17 on day 1. Building is the same way. Place a frame down. A16 - 2 hits and it's built . A17 - 5 hits and it's built, and they are slower hits.

Also, I built the beginnings of my base in 2 days, had enough levels to put points into tool and weapon crafting, and was able to then go out hunting and scavenging without any worries.

If all actions do get the same amount of XP, I might update again. If they fix the extreme slowness of building and stamina drain, then for sure.

 

[PoppaTot]

Why is it about getting levels? I just play the game. Even when things were gated behind books I didn't go raid Crack-a-Books for the stuff; I just went about doing what seemed good for my character's survival.

For me, levels = progression to things that I want to do in the game. May not be the same for everyone. When level locks are put in place (which I'm OK with now, initially was not) my focus was shifted to "how many levels do I need to get to unlock XXXX to play the way I feel it's fun. Again, I'm OK with that, however, making the main/almost only viable source of XP to be farming zombies makes the game repetitive and unbalanced to me.

Just my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

Keep in mind that you do not only get XP from harvesting.You also get to keep the resources and build a mighty fortress for the zombies to turn into rubble. =)

I can accept that as well, however, the penalty of not staying leveled with MP server is severe by taking the time away from zombie farming to do this.

 

[RestInPieces]

and stamina drain

Don't want to derail the thread, but come on. In A16 stamina was non-issue, mostly a decorative UI element. Here it restrains your actions just a bit if you are fully satiated (which you should) and still becomes a non-issue at higher levels.

 

[Boldero]

I think it's far more likely that the new players will buy the game because they want a Fallout clone/action RPG experience, and enjoy it. They don't know the game had depth and alternative playstyles that allowed for specialization (miner, scavenger, fighter, harvester) and permitted those players to roughly be as successful at levelling as the next. All of the people that have been around for the last few years are the ones that are disappointed. What they liked is now dead, and we have a simpler playset. The formula for survival is bonking zombies on their heads to win.

Poojam has a very valid point here, it is a much simpler playstyle now in A17 than it ever was before, and the game IMHO is much poorer for it, hunting zeds is now the way to go, and any other activity is now a sideshow.

 

[cricket504]

I think it's far more likely that the new players will buy the game because they want a Fallout clone/action RPG experience, and enjoy it. They don't know the game had depth and alternative playstyles that allowed for specialization (miner, scavenger, fighter, harvester) and permitted those players to roughly be as successful at levelling as the next. All of the people that have been around for the last few years are the ones that are disappointed. What they liked is now dead, and we have a simpler playset. The formula for survival is bonking zombies on their heads to win.

I'm not sure. One of the big gripes I'm seeing with Fallout 76 is its boring. Grind. So now were faced with much the same. I'm still on my original map when A17 came out. Trying to get a feel for progression and options. I've got over 1,000 kills in A17 and over level 50 in a solo game. I love to kill Z's, but there has to be more to it. No books to hunt, mining is nerfed into the ground (pun) and building is a long slog of resource grinding.

 

[Purpendicular]

In my opinion, the best way to balance mining would be to make it so your XP gained is more time-based (or some other mechanic) and not damage-to-blocks based.

Why?

When XP gained is damage-to-blocks based, and we want the iron/steel pickaxe to give a reasonable amount of experience while mining, that gets thrown out the window when the auger is used, or even when a fully upgraded and modded steel pickaxe is used with max perks.

Hell, you can just give an auger to someone relatively low and have them farm XP and gain a ton of levels.

So, suppose we expect everyone to have an Auger and nerf XP accordingly. Well, now if you are using an iron or stone axe, you gain no XP whatsoever, and that's not good.

The xp gained from mining needs to not be married to damage to blocks.

 

[gfoster610]

Don't want to derail the thread, but come on. In A16 stamina was non-issue, mostly a decorative UI element. Here it restrains your actions just a bit if you are fully satiated (which you should) and still becomes a non-issue at higher levels.

Actually Stamina was an issue in A16 if you're a builder. If I dig a row of 20 spots to put frames in, I will run out of Stamina doing all that digging. In A17 it's even worse in terms of Stamina drain.

Again, I was making a comparison between building/digging in A16 versus A17 and yes, your Stamina drains at a much faster rate when building/digging in A17.

Seriously, go chop down a few trees with an iron fire axe, and then tell me where did all of your Stamina go?

The point I was making is that all other actions besides killing in A17 are much slower in comparison to A16.

 

[cricket504]

I'm just saying we lost, mining, building, crafting progression (1-600 level), books, and loot. But we gained quests and dungeons or better known as "kill more Z's". Its just a lot of lost play that needs a balance pass. I do like the new POI's, they are great. But there needs to be more than Z killing.

 

[Poojam]

In my opinion, the best way to balance mining would be to make it so your XP gained is more time-based (or some other mechanic) and not damage-to-blocks based.
Why?

When XP gained is damage-to-blocks based, and we want the iron/steel pickaxe to give a reasonable amount of experience while mining, that gets thrown out the window when the auger is used, or even when a fully upgraded and modded steel pickaxe is used with max perks.

Hell, you can just give an auger to someone relatively low and have them farm XP and gain a ton of levels.

So, suppose we expect everyone to have an Auger and nerf XP accordingly. Well, now if you are using an iron or stone axe, you gain no XP whatsoever, and that's not good.

The xp gained from mining needs to not be married to damage to blocks.

Yea, but they couldn't repair it because they didn't have the book yet. They have to come up with the fuel for it, which required a book. They have to come up with the repair kits. You're talking about people that are essentially providing tools AND mats AND time to repair their auger to power level up a lowbie. It wasn't zero effort. I agree that it was the fastest way to level, but I don't think it was "the way" to do it for most people. Mining to zombie killing certainly wasn't as unbalanced as it is now.

The saving grace was that you got burst xp for leveling your individual skillsets from 1-100. That helped equalize all the different sources of xp gain.

I hope Gazz just forgot to account for that when they calculated how much XP to award destruction of a block.

edit - Seeing as how this is a "single player, small co-op" game, then I fail to see your complaint anyways.

 

[PoppaTot]

In my opinion, the best way to balance mining would be to make it so your XP gained is more time-based (or some other mechanic) and not damage-to-blocks based.
Why?

When XP gained is damage-to-blocks based, and we want the iron/steel pickaxe to give a reasonable amount of experience while mining, that gets thrown out the window when the auger is used, or even when a fully upgraded and modded steel pickaxe is used with max perks.

Hell, you can just give an auger to someone relatively low and have them farm XP and gain a ton of levels.

So, suppose we expect everyone to have an Auger and nerf XP accordingly. Well, now if you are using an iron or stone axe, you gain no XP whatsoever, and that's not good.

The xp gained from mining needs to not be married to damage to blocks.

Having an auger, and have the auger equipped are 2 different scenarios. Also, it was only an example of how to stop auger XP level exploiting.

 

[InSanity]

I originally didn't like the fact that zombies gave so much more xp than other playstyles because even though I love hunting them down I also enjoy getting resources and building a base along with crafting and whatnot and I do agree that it does need some balancing however....I have noticed that if you spend all your time fighting and looting in the first week you'll be a high level with a much weaker base with a tougher horde but if you spend your time resource gathering(which is slow) and building a base then you'll have a strong base with a weaker horde as you are not a high level. Obviously changes must be made but one can play different playstyles and still make it out alright even without balance cahnges.

 

[RestInPieces]

Seriously, go chop down a few trees with an iron fire axe, and then tell me where did all of your Stamina go?

In A16 I never remembered having an issue with stamina even when digging out underground bunkers. In A17 it is supposed to restrain you/be an obstacle - that's the whole purpose of having stamina in the game. You may be spending it fast yes, but it also regens very fast. in A17 I find that if I am fully satiated and queue my actions properly (like crafting, when I am out of it) I barely have to wait for stamina to regen. And it gets a lot better if you invest in it - you out-regen most actions.

 

[babspsol]

I agree but probably not for the reasons you think.

The low mining / non killing XP can be exploited and that's why it should be increased (fixed?)

I have a cobblestone base surrounded by 10 rows of iron spikes which the horde doesn't even get through on bloodmoon simply because I have not killed anything and all I have done for 21 days is passively loot and mine therefore keeping by game level really low and getting very easy bloodmoon hordes.

All you need to do is find a forge early game (gas station / trader) and you are golden.

 

[PoppaTot]

I originally didn't like the fact that zombies gave so much more xp than other playstyles because even though I love hunting them down I also enjoy getting resources and building a base along with crafting and whatnot and I do agree that it does need some balancing however....I have noticed that if you spend all your time fighting and looting in the first week you'll be a high level with a much weaker base with a tougher horde but if you spend your time resource gathering(which is slow) and building a base then you'll have a strong base with a weaker horde as you are not a high level. Obviously changes must be made but one can play different playstyles and still make it out alright even without balance cahnges.

It's very easy to use existing structures for horde night still. I used the roof of the new huge pass n gas building for horde nights 6-7. would have used it again for 8-10 if I hadn't server wiped. I just would plop in a few rebar frames and re concrete a bit. About 1000 concrete used per BM. Took out the concrete stairs and that was all it needed.

 

[pahbi]

I guess its the eternal question

Fewer, more difficult levels that mean a lot for each level, or lots of easy levels that give you a little bit each level.

- P

 

[PoppaTot]

I guess its the eternal question
Fewer, more difficult levels that mean a lot for each level, or lots of easy levels that give you a little bit each level.

- P

I respectfully disagree, it's about playstyle equality for me. If TFP came out right now and told me that the final vision of 7DTD is geared more toward FPS and that they intend to continue to remove the builder and other playstyles as an equal emphasis. I would be just fine with that and would most likely revert back to A16 and play some of the mods, even though I truly believe A17 would be a lot better than A16 if balanced, or just move on completely when I'm bored in few weeks to a month and stream something else. Then check back when the next alpha comes out and see if any changes had been made to restore it back to the game I enjoyed.

I know the game development is not about my specific preferences, but we all have a right to discuss constructively what we want/expected.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Adding my 2cents here (and that's all it really is), I still think Zombie XP (and Bandits even more so when we get them), ought to be the stand out XP gainer.

Other activities should award XP, definitely, but not nearly so much as countering the games primary threat.

 

[grieferbastard]

Around level 120 now, melee and intelligence trees almost maxed and I'm working on getting perception up so guns are at least semi-useful compared to heavy weapons

I have 0 issues with leveling being tied to zombies because it means leveling requires risk taking. If I can work out a safe place (which you will always be able to do) then I can endlessly level up risk free. At high level I can all but walk through wandering hordes. Unless I really screw up I'm not ever in a fraction the risk I was in at levels 1-100. If I can go from 1-100 with almost no risk save the ones I want to take then the risk is 100% irrelevant and we're back to the game just being about the BM.

There's some largely different opinions about what is and is not fun. That's fine but it means in the end we're only going to have a solution everyone likes when you've got a difficulty modifier similar to the ARK/Conan Exiles games. You tweak XP gain for different things to your liking.