PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[graphite]

Still cant think of a system and ruleset of SI for calculating top down when only having mass and stabilty glue to work with.

Anyone got any ideas ?

Regarding other ways to make it difficult i suggest smoke.

Everyone loves smoke and fog so smoke bombs from bandits and smoker whiteout zombies that explode into plumes of smoke.

 

[Menace312]

Depends, imagine you play Death is DeathYou are Lvl 140, go to loot a POI

There is a 3 Block high Brick wall (Parking place poi)

You have cleaned the poi

You wrench a car, 3 meters behind you a Corner 100% clean

Bنm you are death thanks to ninja spawn in that Corner

Start again

And no thats no imagination, thats happend really to me.

If the game would be not EA i would have stopped playing.

ohh i have stopped playing, instead i work on prefabs and my mod since weeks. (and wait for the fix)

So it ultimately comes down to playstyle... As always...

I like to stay safe, so I build bases... Whenever I go out I'm nervous and cautious, so maybe that's why this is less of a problem for me...

I don't wanna sound like an old record, but it's a bit much to expect the game to be ready for dead is dead.

Glitches and landscape generation errors can also kill you unfairly.

In those instances you'd respawn for the reason of: It's unfair...

Ok, it can be difficult to determine whether a sleeper kill is real (you just didn't look hard enough) or unfair. I get that...

And it can take away the fun...

At least POI design is fun too

Edit:

What's this MOD your doing? Any hints your willing to dish out?

 

[Pille]

The little player guy just looked too happy for me not to comment but he could also be jumping in fright.We need speech bubbles next time I could see one with 'Yay!' just as easily as 'Eek!'

Lol, no. He or she is very sad:

 

[Crater Creator]

Thanks. The situation showed in the upper right diagram shouldn't happen imo. Looks like a teleporting zombie to me.

Looks like a teleporting zombie if you see it teleport. Let's compare this with the alternative of spawning the 'usual' distance away.

Note that the result is the same. If you can get the same results with less simulation to process, why wouldn't you? Just to spite your CPU?

Btw. you have to add checks for motion sensor and other electricity stuff (wouldn't be easy, I guess)...

These would be part of the 'can the zombie be seen spawning' and 'can the zombie be heard spawning' checks. Motion sensors count as observers. You should have to do this check no matter where a zombie spawns, since anywhere you pick could potentially be in view of a motion sensor.

Very nice diagrams btw. How did you make them?

Thanks. You're not the first to ask, actually. It's an OpenOffice spreadsheet with the cell heights and widths set to a quarter inch and using the background color to represent the different materials. I use the same method when designing actual bases I plan to construct in game. The animation is a series of screenshots sequenced in Photoshop (an old school, labor intensive approach I'm afraid).

 

[Doombringer101]

Lol, no. He is very sad:

Hahaha

 

[Royal Deluxe]

So it ultimately comes down to playstyle... As always......

I don't wanna sound like an old record, but it's a bit much to expect the game to be ready for dead is dead.

Glitches and landscape generation errors can also kill you unfairly.

Thats why i said "If the game would be not EA"

In the final game there is no place for Ninjaspawn in a corner you checked a few seconds before. This is completly gamebreaking like the Dupe Bugs are gamebreaking for PVP.

 

[Pille]

Looks like a teleporting zombie if you see it teleport. Let's compare this with the alternative of spawning the 'usual' distance away.

Note that the result is the same. If you can get the same results with less simulation to process, why wouldn't you? Just to spite your CPU?

This wouldn't work (see picture below). You have to consider a squillion possibilities to achieve a decent spawn behavior (e.g. trap damage from traps at the bottom of the pit, electricity (I don't think that you can handle this reliably)):

Imo it's not a 'robust' solution since you have to consider a lot of scenarios. To me, the underground spawns still look like a guaranty for more bugs and highly counter-intuitive zombie spawns.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Note that the result is the same. If you can get the same results with less simulation to process, why wouldn't you? Just to spite your CPU?

Because after the fall of 100 Meters in the Pit and slicing by Blades and Spikes, there would be no Zombie

if this would be the real gameplay i forecast

at console forum: a ♥♥♥♥storm you never saw elsewhere

at Pc Forum: "No Blockdamage for Zombiehands Mod"

 

[meganoth]

Well, the dirt under your foundation is subject to SI, too. And dirt has a low SI of 2. So you couldn't make a very big foundation at all if you're relying on just a layer of dirt to hold it up.

Why should caves not have to account for stability? A big cave should need a stone ceiling, and really big caves need pillars, just like now. Remember, neither granite nor Rolands foundation blocks do anything different to what is below them. If a cave is unstable now it will be unstable with granite somewhere above. If it is stable now it will be stable with granite somewhere above

The difference between jackelmeyrs and my proposal is just that jackelmeyrs granite can be used as ceiling directly while my granite needs layers of normal stuff between it and the cave. But the cave ceiling just follows and must respect normal rules for the cave to be stable.

 

[Crater Creator]

The purpose of that image was to show that if we had dig-and-backfill zombies, then they could spawn closer to the player than previously thought without affecting gameplay.

Putting your stuff at risk by placing it up against your outer wall is not unique to underground bases. This is also a consideration/challenge for surface bases.

No way to defend = no fun

True... but not the case here.

 

[graphite]

i would not bother with player placed block but just trace a ray to player from edge of active region and then pick a spawn point at a set distance from player as long as it was in terrain.

i am still not sure this will work i like to spite the cpu and make it do the work lol

 

[Crater Creator]

Cave = only one way out (with maybe sleepers that close the entrance behind you)Means i dont go in

Caves, not to be confused with PoIs. There are no sleepers in caves, as much as I'd like there to be (It was my number 1 question for Alpha 16 at one point.) I stay aware enough of my surroundings to know if a zombie senses me before I enter. Once I'm underground, any surface zombies I alert don't know how to get to me. The only real dangers I've found in caves that aren't present everywhere else are falling, and getting stuck because I didn't bring an adequate means to build or dig my way out.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

True... but not the case here.

In my imagination your Zombie Spawns inside my safe Zone

So he never need to cross my

3x Spikes

Steelwall

Fallpit (100 Meter deep trench)

again spikes

Blades

Turrets

Instead the zombie simply spawns inside the Plateau in my base.

Means the only defense is a passive Defense by removing all Rock Blocks inside my Base area

 

[Crater Creator]

Yep, the zeds could spawn inside your base (if I've understand Crater Creator's Diagram correctly)...

The ray is cast from the edge of the world inward toward the player. Pragmatically speaking the 'edge of the world' could be just outside of the loaded chunks. I'm not sure I'm reading your diagram correctly; are your base walls made solely out of stone?

 

[graphite]

In my imagination your Zombie Spawns inside my safe Zone
So he never need to cross my

3x Spikes

Steelwall

Fallpit (100 Meter deep trench)

again spikes

Blades

Turrets

Instead the zombie simply spawns inside the Plateau in my base.

Means the only defense is a passive Defense by removing all Rock Blocks inside my Base area

I see your point of why have defenses when zombie can spawn past them.

That is why i think some distance is needed to spawn in and for the zombie to be heard.

What i dont think is a problem is zombie on outside of your fortress trying to get in and you have to get them before they break your wall down.

 

[Crater Creator]

The most people build underground because they dont like to play architect.Making the underground more interesting is one aim and ok for me.

But make it anoying like the surface (for players that dont want to play as architects) is in my opinion to much.

As you can see on my Screenshots i dont fear to build big. But many players want to play more a shooter than a Building game.

And even i doesnt like the idea of undefeatable Zombies in the rock.

Well I don't find the surface annoying, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

They're not "undefeatable." If I were a player that wanted to play more of a shooter than a building game, I would, you know, shoot them as they came in! :laser:

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Well I don't find the surface annoying, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
They're not "undefeatable." If I were a player that wanted to play more of a shooter than a building game, I would, you know, shoot them as they came in! :laser:

Inside the rocks ?

I make my Playerbases (and my Prefabs thought as playerbases) maximum 53x53 to give the spawner a fair chance to spawn zombies outside my perimeter.

The game need to consider that. Else every defense is so pointless like to fight the 7th day horde at all or using a crossbow since A16 Spawns all 3 meters glowing zombies.

 

[graphite]

I understood Pille diagram as a player had just dug a shaft and hollowed out a cavern and then placed a forge.

Dependent on N S E W the ray originated from could cause issue with player placed block being passed the player.

Having no player place block in the path is problematic and you want to trace the least amount of rays possible i understand.

 

[Pille]

@Crater Creator

See graphite's reply (especially the last paragraph):

I understood Pille diagram as a player had just dug a shaft and hollowed out a cavern and then placed a forge.
Dependent on N S E W the ray originated from could cause issue with player placed block being passed the player.

Having no player place block in the path is problematic and you want to trace the least amount of rays possible i understand.

The ray is cast from the edge of the world inward toward the player. Pragmatically speaking the 'edge of the world' could be just outside of the loaded chunks. I'm not sure I'm reading your diagram correctly; are your base walls made solely out of stone?

So, yes there are made solely out of stone (at least the blocks touched by the ray).

 

[graphite]

Regarding non colliding zombies

The way am thinking about resource saving is that it only extending the time they wont be used and not saving on them in total.

So you will not get more zombies on map because of it just lighten the load which can be offset by delayed spawning.

I hope you are all working on top down SI calculation it is driving me mad so please work it out.

It is bad enough Gaz wont let the base ingredient of the secret SI sauce go but not having a solution to top down calc makes it worse.