PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[graphite]

@Roland

Was not anything bad i thought you where making fun of my extremely overcomplicated description of system of systems with a joke about skyhooks which i found funny.

Dont worry about me i am in my own little world most of the time.

Floor or ceiling where SI is calculated from i still believe it is floor.

 

[Roland]

So catching up, it seems we all agree levelled loot should go away in favor of higher loot at higher challenges, i.e. cities.
Can someone cliffnote the current incarnation of this foundation block idea for me?

Take a reinforced concrete block, call it a foundation block, and give it the following additional properties:

1) You can't build another such block above or below that block.

2) The game will stop at said block when calculating SI when you place a block above it.

The only good such a block would provide is to layout a large 1-block high slab upon which you could build. SI would only be calculated down to the foundation block and stop there instead of continuing down to bedrock. The foundation blocks themselves would still be subject to SI calculated down to bedrock so they wouldn't float and they would be no more durable than regular reinforced concrete.

Benefits:

1) Prefabs could be given this foundation and not suffer any ill effects of underground caves and tunnels should TFP make another stab at randome cave networks below ground or some enterprising player build an underground base below a prefab.

2) Players would have perfect knowledge of any gaps or weaknesses in their designs and not be surprised by ill effects of unknown underground openings.

3) Players could create underground lairs and tunnels without messing up or worrying about what they did above ground.

4) Players could still build without a foundation if desired and SI of their building would calculate down to bedrock per normal.

5) Laying a foundation and then building upon it is very intuitive and consistent with IRL building.

The best way to think of it is that many prefabs right now have a cement bottom layer. It's just plain cement and does nothing special. What I propose is that those cement blocks be given the additional attribute that when the game calculates SI for the prefab sitting on top of that layer of cement it ends its analysis at that bottom cement layer instead of proceeding on down to bedrock. Now if zombies dug enough out from under that prefab and the SI of the bottom layer of cement was compromised it could start collapsing. The same would be true of foundation blocks. They would be destructible, repairable, replaceable, subject to gravity and the same SI rules of any other block.

 

[ppnl]

Um, ok but why not make them stackable?

Sorry for not keeping up.

 

[graphite]

I do like the idea but i imagine most players would build a concrete slab to place the foundation slab on and then it would not have much problem from zombies digging undeneath and even if it did you would have loads of chance to repair and drive supporting columns in.

So i cannot see it being compromised at all really.

 

[Guppycur]

re: Foundation Block idea

...okay, I'm in.

That would be a female dog to calculate though.

 

[Menace312]

You can't build a skyscraper on one layer of dirt right now? I'm not sure what you are implying....
The foundation would not remove SI. It merely is the stopping point for SI calculation. So players would still need to learn how to build within the current rules of SI. The only difference is that unknown air gaps deep below the structure wouldn't be messing with the calculations. You could create a Batcave beneath your mansion and not have it cause collapses in your mansion.

-snip-

Yes, but what I mean is, that as long as the foundation block can be placed, new blocks on top would only calculate SI to the foundation block, right?

So let's say you have a deep hole in the ground and you cover the top, with one layer of dirt.

Since the foundation block is just "a block", you can place it safely on this layer.

Now! You can build a full skyscraper on the foundation blocks, since everything below the foundation block is no longer relevant.

It's gonna be a weird world if you could do this... And also, taking out the foundation blocks on buildings, will have weird effects (I predict).

Just saying

 

[Aurelius]

So catching up, it seems we all agree levelled loot should go away in favor of higher loot at higher challenges, i.e. cities.
Can someone cliffnote the current incarnation of this foundation block idea for me?

What Roland said. That and you need sticks to make it.

-A

 

[graphite]

It's gonna be a weird world if you could do this... And also, taking out the foundation blocks on buildings, will have weird effects (I predict).

Just saying

Foundation blocks cant have any stability glue so if there destroyed and si cant hold whats above it should just collapse.

but totally agree it is weird and would imagine it needs extra coords an will be 2 calculations per metre square chunk

At the momment on the bedrock plane any block in a direct vertical connection has no SI calculated.

Extra rule any block with foundation tag has SI calculated from it and it is at X Y Z.

Throw a branch on a vertical check if you hit a foundation block but continue with SI vertically.

Recursively check vertically SI but halt on second run unless another player block is altered.

 

[Roland]

Yes, but what I mean is, that as long as the foundation block can be placed, new blocks on top would only calculate SI to the foundation block, right?
So let's say you have a deep hole in the ground and you cover the top, with one layer of dirt.

Since the foundation block is just "a block", you can place it safely on this layer.

Now! You can build a full skyscraper on the foundation blocks, since everything below the foundation block is no longer relevant.

It's gonna be a weird world if you could do this... And also, taking out the foundation blocks on buildings, will have weird effects (I predict).

Just saying

How wide of a hole are we talking? Dirt itself doesn't have enough horizontal glue strength to stretch one layer thick across a very wide hole and certainly not skyscraper sized. I see what you are saying and if you could dig a 20m diameter hole down to bedrock and cover that with a single layer of dirt and it could actually hold and then place enough reinforced concrete blocks on that layer to form a base and not have it simply collapse from that then...we're already in a weird world.

Maybe it would be too difficult to calculate. Seems to me that it would be less to calculate but I'm no 3D voxel world generation designer so I'm quite ready to be wrong.

 

[fragtzack]

Any news on z Pathing improvements?

 

[Guppycur]

K, so... How many foundation blocks can be crafted?

 

[Demonoid74]

K, so... How many foundation blocks can be crafted?

42 of course...

 

[Crater Creator]

Why not create another "Air block" specifically one that gets place underground that has structural integrity that the player can pass through? SI mechanic calculates it as just another terrain block, basically making it think its a solid, thinking the cave/tunnel is filled in?
its fun to have a round table discussion even if it goes nowhere at times

Yep, I'm enjoying this discussion too. So if this 'strong air' block is calculated as just another terrain block, you could build directly on top of it, yes? In which case, wouldn't it allow you to build floating platforms?

That's the idea I was thinking with Granite. It's just a Stone block. All the same mechanics, except one: It reset's SI. So yeah. It should collapse like Stone, have the same health as stone, have the same resistances as stone, same structural integrity itself as stone, and so on. Just anything that connects with it treats the granite, itself, as bedrock only, only only, from the perspective of SI.

I'll post the answer I gave you a few pages previously again as you seem to have missed it:
If this is the problem with granite, then it isn't a problem. If granite resets SI calculation for anything above it but not for itself then it still needs dirt or stone below it. In other words it will not float.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Okay, chalk some of this up to me not drinking enough catchup. I concede that this granite idea has evolved to where additional floating base designs shouldn't be possible, as far as I can tell.

It would allow base designs that couldn't be supported without granite (obviously, since speaking broadly that's the point). As I'm understanding it now, the most dramatic case would look something like this.

This isn't as bad as a floating base and could be deemed acceptable, but it does throw off the basic concept of SI that a ledge can only take so much weight before it collapses.

Its interesting the point Crater Creator has bought up with the zombie not being an actual visual collidable entity until you can sense them or they begin to change the world.
I didnt like this and i could not work out why i did not and my thinking seemed illogical because the zombie is digging you cannot see it and the terrain is being replaced.

Main problem i can see is is calculating when you have sensed a zombie i would think the first thing was you could hear them but that sound event would need to be added to the zombie before its entity can collide.

So this will come down to a block distance in reality that a zombie can spawn near you which defeats the object to some degree of a dynamic non colliding entity.

You might as well not do the calculations and have a set distance zombies can spawn from.

Would this give players an advantage once this distance was discovered i dont know but if it did you would have to extend the distance and randomise it and we are back to chunk 1.

Most sounds in a 3D game can only be heard out to a fixed distance. The designer can set the closest distance from a player that zombies can spawn to match this distance. You don't need to fire off an actual sound event or use it in the calculation. A distance check is a relatively cheap calculation: much cheaper than spawning the zombie farther away and simulating it as it actually walks and digs its way towards you. That's where the savings would come from.

The other check, for when it would encounter a player placed block, is so that the walls etc. that you build still present an obstacle, and it doesn't perceptibly teleport inside your walls etc.

Yeah I does. It's why the fifth wood frame you attach to an unsupported block falls. How walking on a block at it's limit knows to collapse.
Maybe it's just the way your sentence is worded that throws me. But things being too heavy to sit on each other is basically the SI system.

Though I don't understand the function of a foundation at this point in the discussion as I think the design of it may have gotten a little out of hand...

I'm thinking I was thrown by Roland's description, that foundation blocks rely on being extremely heavy to prevent some exploits. I was referring to how the current SI calculation doesn't include crushing forces. E.g. you can place steel blocks on hay bales and it doesn't matter - blocks can hold infinite weight on them, just not beside them.

 

[Jackelmyer]

It would allow base designs that couldn't be supported without granite (obviously, since speaking broadly that's the point). As I'm understanding it now, the most dramatic case would look something like this.

This isn't as bad as a floating base and could be deemed acceptable, but it does throw off the basic concept of SI that a ledge can only take so much weight before it collapses.

That wouldn't work. The granite has Stone SI itself. Which I think would cause the platform of granite to collapse before you could build that structure. Which is why I like this granite idea so much.

Granite top resets SI.

Otherwise... It's stone.

And in my version of granite, zombies can still bash granite to bits. So that base likely wouldn't stay up for long. The granite would eventually collapse with zombies banging on the little support below.

And who does that? lol. Dig such a huge pit and not just build from the ground all the way up? Looking at it a few more times made me giggle.

 

[Tin]

Yep, I'm enjoying this discussion too. So if this 'strong air' block is calculated as just another terrain block, you could build directly on top of it, yes? In which case, wouldn't it allow you to build floating platforms?

Not if they could somehow recognize that its a player crafted block. Player crafted blocks would not be supported in anyway by the "strong air" block. So you would need to attach your player crafted block to the cave/tunnels ceiling/floor/walls or it would crumble. I think they already have a type of system that already tells if it's a player crafted block or not.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Not if they could somehow recognize that its a player crafted block. Player crafted blocks would not be supported in anyway by the "strong air" block. So you would need to attach your player crafted block to the cave/tunnels ceiling/floor/walls or it would crumble. I think they already have a type of system that already tells if it's a player crafted block or not.

I get what Tin is saying I think. It's an air block. Where all it does is reset SI of whatever's above it. Otherwise, it's only an air block. Build through it sure. But no sticky points on it.

 

[Tin]

I get what Tin is saying I think. It's an air block. Where all it does is reset SI of whatever's above it. Otherwise, it's only an air block. Build through it sure. But no sticky points on it.

Pretty much. Just tricking the system into thinking there's no tunnel or cave system underneath... at least that's the idea behind it.

 

[graphite]

@Crater Creator

The sound been added was more a player warning driven device from the fact that if no material was being altered then no sound will be heard so this will need to be added.

I was gueesing once zombies could be heard they should be seen otherwise you would need to trace when a zombie was near to be uncovered then make them a visible entity that can collide.

If this could be handled by occlusion culling then thats fantastic as it only need sound added to the zombie

Someone mentioned that zombie going directly to the wall would not give them any chance to counter.

But you could argue concrete wall you would hear them scratching away for quite a while.

I snipped this from earlier in the thread.

Snip snip

So to recap on compiling some suggestions.

Special zombies (VDZ) can dig vertical targeting a underground base.

Underground spawning zombies (USZ) can converge on vertical shaft and then target underground base.

Terrain blocks that USZ clear regenerate in a short time and turn back into terrain.

USZ are highly audiable so a player has a chance to detect.

I like ouch's idea of digging a certain vertical block depth but i would push the button activating USZ at a certain depth so if it was high elevation terrain then there is still danger even if another player kills the VDZ.

Snip snip

 

[Crater Creator]

@Crater Creator
I came to the conclusion that this question is essential for further discussions: how do you define outside and inside (regarding the term 'base')?

Atm the discussion is a bit pointless since we don't have a common basis.

Defining inside versus outside is indeed a wide-reaching consideration, and I've noticed the game has (perhaps wisely) been mostly designed without explicitly defining this concept. I don't think we need an all-purpose definition in this case, either. But for the purposes of how close a digger zombie can spawn so as to not have 'skipped' part of your base that they intuitively shouldn't have, the definition is easier. Start at the edge of the map, and cast a ray inward toward the player (like sticking a pin in a pincushion). Where the ray hits a player placed block, the digger zombie can spawn no closer than that. It could be a single block the zombie could easily go around, but our goal is optimization, not perfection. Then you can do any other checks necessary, like pushing the zombie spawn back just beyond the player's hearing radius.

 

[Menace312]

Foundation blocks cant have any stability glue so if there destroyed and si cant hold whats above it should just collapse.
but totally agree it is weird and would imagine it needs extra coords an will be 2 calculations per metre square chunk

At the momment on the bedrock plane any block in a direct vertical connection has no SI calculated.

Extra rule any block with foundation tag has SI calculated from it and it is at X Y Z.

Throw a branch on a vertical check if you hit a foundation block but continue with SI vertically.

Recursively check vertically SI but halt on second run unless another player block is altered.

Well that's the thing... It may end up increasing load instead of alleviating it. (But still potentially allowing caverns under buildings, as Roland suggested).

It ultimately comes down to the way it's coded I guess...

How wide of a hole are we talking? Dirt itself doesn't have enough horizontal glue strength to stretch one layer thick across a very wide hole and certainly not skyscraper sized. I see what you are saying and if you could dig a 20m diameter hole down to bedrock and cover that with a single layer of dirt and it could actually hold and then place enough reinforced concrete blocks on that layer to form a base and not have it simply collapse from that then...we're already in a weird world.
Maybe it would be too difficult to calculate. Seems to me that it would be less to calculate but I'm no 3D voxel world generation designer so I'm quite ready to be wrong.

Well, I was using dirt as an example... How about this:

2 wood frames out over a cliff.

1 foundation block.

200 reinforced concrete blocks stacked high.

Now I know it's not a "safe" building. But still weird .

It's not that I don't appreciate the approach...

It's much better than the: if "x" blocks down from the user placed block exist, then SI all good.

Your way is better, but it still has some holes...

I believe SI calculations happens nearly all the time, and massively too... So I wonder if the game just demands to much raw CPU?

So when it's released, maybe it'll be more optimized... And our PC's will be upgraded...

So maybe then?