PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Crater Creator]

I get what Tin is saying I think. It's an air block. Where all it does is reset SI of whatever's above it. Otherwise, it's only an air block. Build through it sure. But no sticky points on it.

Very well then. I pick a patch on the ceiling of the tunnel, consisting of the natural stone or granite or whatever blocks resting directly on top of the 'strong air' blocks. I dig away everything above and to the sides of these blocks. I put a layer of concrete on top of these blocks. Now I build up and out, sticking to the concrete but not to the strong air or natural blocks. I now have an unattached base that floats on strong air.

 

[Crater Creator]

@Crater Creator
The sound been added was more a player warning driven device from the fact that if no material was being altered then no sound will be heard so this will need to be added.

I was gueesing once zombies could be heard they should be seen otherwise you would need to trace when a zombie was near to be uncovered then make them a visible entity that can collide.

If this could be handled by occlusion culling then thats fantastic as it only need sound added to the zombie

The audible distance and the visible distance can be handled independently. It doesn't matter which is larger, but do consider that while they're digging through solid dirt, you can't see them because there's dirt in the way.

So to recap on compiling some suggestions.
Special zombies (VDZ) can dig vertical targeting a underground base.

Underground spawning zombies (USZ) can converge on vertical shaft and then target underground base.

Terrain blocks that USZ clear regenerate in a short time and turn back into terrain.

USZ are highly audiable so a player has a chance to detect.

I like ouch's idea of digging a certain vertical block depth but i would push the button activating USZ at a certain depth so if it was high elevation terrain then there is still danger even if another player kills the VDZ.

I don't see why the underground spawning zombies would need to move towards the vertical shaft. Surface zombies, sure, but the underground ones are already underground. They can take a direct route to wherever you are.

 

[Tin]

Very well then. I pick a patch on the ceiling of the tunnel, consisting of the natural stone or granite or whatever blocks resting directly on top of the 'strong air' blocks. I dig away everything above and to the sides of these blocks. I put a layer of concrete on top of these blocks. Now I build up and out, sticking to the concrete but not to the strong air or natural blocks. I now have an unattached base that floats on strong air.

yeah...No! try that underwater and what do you get .. falling blocks. it would be your same example.

Still think Roland's idea has more merit. just because it would also add an extra element to the building aspect.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Okay, you're technically correct. How about this then? The SI of stone is 7 by the way.

If you think this will collapse, please tell me which block, specifically, won't work.

To be clear, I'm not saying you can build a stilt base with granite, since you can already do that. But I am saying you can build even bigger, heavier, less supported stilt bases than you already could. It's not necessarily a deal breaker, but it's something to consider, especially since zombies will not bang on the support right now, and we don't know what the solution to stilt bases will be or what assumptions the design may be predicated on to work.

That's actually really damn clever. I'd honestly have to recheck the SI of Stone. Though to be honest I'd rather the granite be a bit more sturdy than stone. Bigger caverns.

And being doubly fair and honest, in this latest example, you don't even need the full L joint on the granite m. Just one steel block on the side of the granite platform. But still, it'd only extend to the max that stone can. Still... It's not floating. And that's a pretty damn prone base.

I think in the end based on what I was shooting for, is that caves, caverns, and tunnels would be world genned. So though yeah... You could do that... You'd have less choices of where you could build. And to me that matters a lot. As for me, location location location makes a good base.

Though. To be fair. In game play perspectives... It'd end up a late stages base build. You'd have to go digging for your cavern to build on. That's a crap load of slow searching unless RNG is on your side. And in my mind, the entire underworld isn't chalked full of caves and caverns. Making it that much more challenging to find such a site to build on.

If you want to work that hard to make a shelf base? Have at it.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Very well then. I pick a patch on the ceiling of the tunnel, consisting of the natural stone or granite or whatever blocks resting directly on top of the 'strong air' blocks. I dig away everything above and to the sides of these blocks. I put a layer of concrete on top of these blocks. Now I build up and out, sticking to the concrete but not to the strong air or natural blocks. I now have an unattached base that floats on strong air.

I think what Tin is saying is that the Air blocks don't actually provide support themselves. They only reset the block above. So effectively the block above is unsupported. But any block above that is sitting on a supported block.

S

S

s

A

A

S

S

B

S - Supported Stone

s - Unsupported Stone

A - Air

B - bedrock

The unsupported stone block still needs to be stuck to something that is supported in this example.

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yeah...No! try that underwater and what do you get .. falling blocks. it would be your same example.
Still think Roland's idea has more merit. just because it would also add an extra element to the building aspect.

I'm still smelling something funny with the foundation block. I need to relook at the rules Roland put out for it because I think they're conflicting rules too. Hope to get to a PC to double check.

 

[Tin]

I think what Tin is saying is that the Air blocks don't actually provide support themselves. They only reset the block above. So effectively the block above is unsupported. But any block above that is sitting on a supported block.
S

S

s

A

A

S

S

B

S - Supported Stone

s - Unsupported Stone

A - Air

B - bedrock

The unsupported stone block still needs to be stuck to something that is supported in this example.

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I'm still smelling something funny with the foundation block. I need to relook at the rules Roland put out for it because I think they're conflicting rules too. Hope to get to a PC to double check.

I like it because it involves making a foundation but it may have some underlying issue. who knows

 

[Ouch Quit It]

I don't see why the underground spawning zombies would need to move towards the vertical shaft. Surface zombies, sure, but the underground ones are already underground. They can take a direct route to wherever you are.

Most people put up a wall above ground....they hit your wall and start digging down...within their radius of detection they sense you or a player placed block(shaft)...they turn and horizontally head towards that direction/block(s).

OUCH

COUGHS * VIDEO * Coughs

 

[Roland]

I believe the way people are explaining it is yes you can dig care free under your base with the foundation blocks as long as you don't undermine the dirt blocks directly underneath and to the sides (the ones touching the foundation blocks).
So you could in theory go 2 dirt blocks lower than the foundation and excavate a football field size cavern if you wish.

Not quite THAT carefree. I was more thinking you might go down 10 meters or so and create a large cavern. At any rate I don’t believe a two layer ceiling of dirt would hold up even on its own regardless of whether it had a building on top of it if you tried even just the end zone area of a football field.

Menace is absolutely right that weird situations could occur such as how much you could stack on blocks attached to the side of a cliff but as I said you can’t create a large enough area unsupported even without adding a foundation to really make it viable. And even if you’re satisfied with a small area to work with, your base is very vulnerable to suddenly coming crashing down.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Hey Roland?

Can you do me a favor? Can you quote or restate the most complete list of rules for a foundation block? I'm struggling to put it all together again. Sorry man. Really want to relook at the whole idea all put together again at this point.

 

[Roland]

Like Jacklemyer, I don’t believe that the game is constantly checking SI. The proof of that are unstable prefabs that are still in the game and they stand just fine until you remove something or add something or walk on them depending on whatever action causes the game at that moment to check SI and then the whole building crumbles.

Really the only question is whether the game checks SI from the point of action down to bedrock or from bedrock up to the point of action.

 

[Crater Creator]

I am not sure that I can follow you. What about air blocks? What happens if the ray hits an air block?

The ray continues through air blocks, because air blocks are not player-placed blocks.

I had to think about why this was important for a bit. I imagine what you're getting at is that you could have a big pit outside your base that the digger zombies get across when they shouldn't. However, they still stop when they hit the first player-placed block, and that means they either spawn inside terrain, or in air.

If in terrain, they stand on some kind of terrain block and start attacking your wall, as if they spawned on the near side of the pit. If in air, they fall to the ground like Wile E. Coyote, because that's where they'd end up if they spawned far away and went through the motions of approaching you. Remember, the late spawning isn't to change their behavior for better or worse; it's to improve performance.

 

[Crater Creator]

That is why I think that granite should not transfer sideways SI and not get sideways SI (i.e. granite would always fall if nothing is below it), so a staircase design is not possible. EDIT: Correction, it is possible, but you need to put stone or concrete ledges under and between the granite.

If I understand you correctly, then the granite couldn't line the ceilings of tunnels and caverns like Jackelmyer wants. There is air under the granite, so the granite would fall immediately before the player did anything.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Like Jacklemyer, I don’t believe that the game is constantly checking SI. The proof of that are unstable prefabs that are still in the game and they stand just fine until you remove something or add something or walk on them depending on whatever action causes the game at that moment to check SI and then the whole building crumbles.
Really the only question is whether the game checks SI from the point of action down to bedrock or from bedrock up to the point of action.

I'm pretty sure it checks until near by block stability is all lower than the block being checked. Then zips to bedrock to be sure that the column is fully supported. Haven't seen the code. But by video tutorials that demo everything except subterranean air pockets and just how things seem to behave in game.

What I find to be the most vodoo is the load sharing that's done by two unsupported blocks. But I think that's a simple matter of, if we're both unsupported, we split the weight of a block that's attached to us both.

Referring to scenarios like...

Ssssss

Sssss

Ssss

Sss

Ss

S

S = Supported to bedrock

s = Unsupported

Where the top platform should only be able to hold 4 wood frames out, but because the Support underneath, it can hold 5 or 6 I think. But more than the 4 wood frames with nothing but air under them.

 

[Roland]

It’s evolved but basically my thought was that it would basically be a reinforced concrete block that could be activated to be a foundation block. It would have the same properties as any other reinforced concrete block in terms of weight and horizontal glue. The changes would be as follows:

1) As a foundation block it would act as an endpoint for SI calculation for construction done above it. (assuming top down checks)

2) A second foundation block could not be activated anywhere above or below one already in existence.

The only real exploit is that you could support a huge base on an unrealistic stilt but that would be pretty risky to do. The foundation blocks themselves would still be subject to SI calculated down to bedrock below them so they would collapse if not supported adequately or if any supports holding them up were destroyed.

 

[Aldranon]

Like Jacklemyer, I don’t believe that the game is constantly checking SI. The proof of that are unstable prefabs that are still in the game and they stand just fine until you remove something or add something or walk on them depending on whatever action causes the game at that moment to check SI and then the whole building crumbles.
Really the only question is whether the game checks SI from the point of action down to bedrock or from bedrock up to the point of action.

Maybe in the "Subways, Sewers & Skyscapers" DLC @$9.95, they will increase the SI of reinforced concrete to a realistic level. Reinforced concrete was designed to give concrete a torsion strength to complement its amazing compression strength. Americans recently have made a concrete (HPC + UHPC) that is UNBELIVABLY strong, so if MM said 7D2D is near future then using 10 meters of that stuff will hold up anything within the games scope.

No need for magic, unless American ingenuity is magic.

 

[Crater Creator]

This digging zombie idea seems floored before it is given any chance sorry.

There are multiple ideas and we're all still actively evaluating them, with page after page of ongoing analysis. Why so quick to draw conclusions?

But i myself don't want tunnels everywhere cause of a digging zombie. Defending against such digging as won't be an issue as 2 steps take place. TFP always puts in counter actions to be able to defend.

The existence of an effective counter action doesn't mean an attack presents no issue. Consider rock-paper-scissors: every attack has a counter, but the attacks are still an issue for the defense, because no single defense can counter every attack. It's my hope that 7DtD will eventually have enough kinds of attacks that there can be threats to the player in all scenarios. E.g., your stilt base is safe from diggers but not from fliers, your underground base is safe from fliers but not from diggers, etc.

2. Gamers will again always be able to find ways to defend from such diggging as.

This is not the issue! Besides which, it's wrong. The developers set the rules of their universe. Of course they can come up with a rule set that has no defense. They can add lightning strikes that kill you no matter what. But they won't, because this is not the goal.

As for the terrain being replaced by a digging z lol that is absurd to say the least because that be like it is magical.

Actually it's way, way less magical than all that terrain being stuffed in your backpack. The latter brand of magic is so legendary, we have a name for it: hammerspace.

And if I am in my base and magically appears a digging z that be as bad as teleporting as everyone was complaining about. And then there is no sign of how it got there cause the holes been covered you then need to refer to the above and repeat in a loop.

You wouldn't see the digging zombie appear. It would just skip over the boring and performance-hurting part of slowly chewing through many blocks of terrain, and get to the interesting and detectable part where it's about to break in. When done correctly, you won't be able to tell the difference.

 

[Crater Creator]

Perlin caves shouldn't be a problem. Just give us a surveyors camera thing lol. If your gonna build a base or lol or prefab you need to survelleince the area you intend to build to check for so weaknesses caves etc. No need for this foundation stuff.

All this talk about SI notwithstanding, I agree with this. The game now includes advanced sensor equipment like motion sensors, pressure sensors, and night vision goggles. Add a vibration sensor to detect digging zombies, and a... reverse stud finder (not the right term, but I don't know the technology) that beeps if you're standing over an air pocket, and both worries are addressed.

 

[wolfbain5]

I kinda want to see home/house POI's have a chance to include a Zombie dog in their spawn. So sure, sleepers might be easy. But eeeevery now and then, the families guard dog stuck with them to the end... Plus!

Already do. I have faced a few

 

[Crater Creator]

I don't like a big world granite slab. Where at -20 height, there's some granite layer a few blocks thick. You just narrow SI problems that way.

I'm still thinking there's potential to take the granite/foundation idea, and generalize it to all SI calculations, instead of applying it to a special type of block. Pardon my repost:

Hmm... I think you may have hit on something pretty profound here.
Conceptually, a big hole right under a base is going to cause problems, but the same sized hole a kilometer deeper isn't as big of a deal. So I'm wondering if, instead of a new type of block with different properties, SI could pay progressively less attention to blocks the farther below they are from the block in question. I'm still thinking about the math, but the first spitball would be, like, the SI calculation for block (x,y,z) terminates down at block (x,y,z-20) instead of down at block (x,y,[bedrock]). If you get down to (x,y,z-20) and SI still holds up, that's good enough. It's similar to your granite & foundation ideas, but applied as a relative offset each time SI is calculated instead of at absolute values where special blocks exist.

I'm not defining this very rigorously, and someone will probably point out it again allows floating castles, but I think there's something here...

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I see what you are saying and my only thought is how good of an exploit is that really? Lets say that a large enough area could be attached to the side of a cliff to be useful as a safe base. There is still the weak point of contact that only takes a few hits and the whole thing comes down. People build stilt bases now that sometime in the future will be quite risky to rely upon.

Do you promise?

 

[Jackelmyer]

Already do. I have faced a few

The groups available for sleeper volumes in A16 don't have a group like I'm referring to. If you ran into a dog, it's because of city spawn mechanics, biome spawn mechanics, or a wandering dog horde.

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It’s evolved but basically my thought was that it would basically be a reinforced concrete block that could be activated to be a foundation block. It would have the same properties as any other reinforced concrete block in terms of weight and horizontal glue. The changes would be as follows:
1) As a foundation block it would act as an endpoint for SI calculation for construction done above it. (assuming top down checks)

2) A second foundation block could not be activated anywhere above or below one already in existence.

The only real exploit is that you could support a huge base on an unrealistic stilt but that would be pretty risky to do. The foundation blocks themselves would still be subject to SI calculated down to bedrock below them so they would collapse if not supported adequately or if any supports holding them up were destroyed.

Thanks Roland. Gotta sleep on this SI bit. Think I've about hit my SI problem solving limit.