PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[dcsobral]

Well, I, for one, absolutely want digging zombies. Not swiss cheese zombies, but if I'm underground during horde night, at least at higher game stages, then zombies should sure as hell dig to get me. Whether they are digging down, up, sideways or whatever, I don't care.

The ideas about pockets of gas, exploding rocks and similar, on the other hand, I don't like. It would slow down mining a lot, and I find mining already annoying enough. But if that's the challenge, that's the challenge. I like the buried zombie thing, at least on the dirt layer.

 

[Pille]

Those two properties simply realign with any changes to how the world works, they do not dictate anything.

So basically you say a world can never be inconsistent? Inconsistency doesn't exist? Don't understand you, I think.

 

[Janna3921]

Zombies won't even appear near your base if you are not in the chunk making it active.

Uuuummmmm, Wrong. My son (yeah, I know, him again lol) was playing and left his forge on. In the desert close to the trader. He went to the city to loot the skyscraper and when he returned the screamer was inside trashing the place and a few zombies were wandering around outside. He had been gone all day and it was dark when he got back.

Leave a forge on and they will come. Even if you aren't home they will still come. Determined little zombies to have your brains for a meal.

 

[Pille]

Uuuummmmm, Wrong. My son (yeah, I know, him again lol) was playing and left his forge on. In the desert close to the trader. He went to the city to loot the skyscraper and when he returned the screamer was inside trashing the place and a few zombies were wandering around outside. He had been gone all day and it was dark when he got back.
Leave a forge on and they will come. Even if you aren't home they will still come. Determined little zombies to have your brains for a meal.

So an active forge keeps the chunk loaded? Mhh good to know.

 

[ZombieToad]

Jackalmyer made a good point regarding the 40 blocks thing. That would actually make no sense at all thinking of it now.

People wouldnt be burried so far down, the term 6 feet under didn't come from nowhere. Noone on the planet would be digging down 40 meters to burry one corpse in a field (maybe unless they were a very practical serial killer) and whereby I can fully envisage Rolands ground bursting fantasy (and it is kind of nice) people would be coming out of cemetary ground, not an uninhabited island in the middle of a lake.

Remember this game seems to be set in the western world, and in the west we bury people in cemeteries and not beneath massive rock layers in the earth.

This sort of comes back to the other poster that was ok for shallow ground spawns, which I absolutely agree with. Just like the cemetary level zombies.

I remember when I came across zombies in graves in 7D, I broke into the little churchyard and came across a fat woman piled up on a coffin.

I must say, I thought I was in need of a new pair of underwear after that experience...

 

[Roland]

From my perspective, the reasoning doesn't pair with this. The reason to push players top side for blood moon is to help simplify the game development IMO. Zombies chasing players underground adds way way way too much complexity from a coding and design perspective. Zombies in the caves without an entrance seems worse than Snakes on a Plane. That doesn't make sense or work well for me. If they're going to be popping out of the "earth", 40 blocks under the surface... I don't want it from an immersion perspective alone. That sounds ridiculous.

You underestimate Kinyajuu and Prime and you are using present day AI to make your argument about future developments. If they can't solve AI and pathing issues then I agree that it would be unfeasible to have zombies moving around in complex tunnels. But with breadcrumbs and improvements it could be done and done well. I agree that if they are the same zombies that are topside it would feel ridiculous but if they are decayed and almost skeletal versions then fine. If that is still the line you've drawn in ridiculous concepts in this game then what about them spawning closer to the surface and then getting into the caverns and rushing downward to where you are. Then no surface destruction, you get to defend your base, and nothing is popping out of solid stone.

Nah. Not even remotely backwards Roland. Cavern's placed as a POI using POI placement rules that mitigate overlap aren't ever changing against the terrain. They don't randomly bring things down. They're points of interest to discover. It dramatically simplifies underground content that has a far smaller impact to the SI system than anything else I've heard. Can it make someones base fall down if built over it? Yep. But did it magically appear AFTER your base was built? No. It's an absolutely fair counter to digging zombies.

Yah. Completely bass ackwards Jack. Even if you make caverns be POI's using POI placement rules and only put two per biome, sure you won't have any problems with surface prefabs but players won't know whether they are building over a cavern or not and putting a surface indication of an underground cavern is lame, excuse my mobility disadvantaged metaphor. You even admitted that it will mess with player builds and yet Kinyajuu's proposal widens parts of a tunnel you dug by one or two blocks.

Your tunnel plus two whole caverns that always exist whether you dig or not or your tunnel with some nodes of air pockets attached but only if you dig in the first place. Which has the larger SI destabilizing footprint? It's not even close, Jack.

Drama queen.

Oh dang. You win. Great tactic. How did you do it? How can I ever continue the discussion?

It wouldn't add havok if placed sparsely like rural placements and maybe a max 2 per biome. If you wanted, you could have indicators on the surface that a cavern lay underground.
The problem with zombies underground isn't really about the 1x2 or 2x2 block area they destroy when spawning. Though that could add up. The problem is the dang zombies often wander off with a mind of their own and create huge paths of destruction in their wake. If you put wandering hordes in under ground, they will cause repeated cave in's at a minimum. And that likely will just grow into an ugly pit.

Glad you concede that the small pockets adjacent to existing tunnels aren't a problem. That is exactly what I was saying. As I said earlier it is pointless to apply current AI to the future. We know that the AI will be different than it is now and they are specifically working on improving pathing. Also-- Wandering Hordes? Who ever said that? You can't add something never suggested or hinted at by the developer to make your case either. Kinyajuu specifically said that it would be individual zombies while you were actively digging or Bloodmoon Horde night zombies. Period. Nobody said wandering hordes would stream into your tunnels from a pocket of air adjacent to it.

 

[ZombieToad]

Uuuummmmm, Wrong. My son (yeah, I know, him again lol) was playing and left his forge on. In the desert close to the trader. He went to the city to loot the skyscraper and when he returned the screamer was inside trashing the place and a few zombies were wandering around outside. He had been gone all day and it was dark when he got back.
Leave a forge on and they will come. Even if you aren't home they will still come. Determined little zombies to have your brains for a meal.

That seems right, that's what happened to me. Although it *is* possible as Doom said that as we leave the area the screamer may have spawned and began the smash up.

But I can attest to the experience.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Uuuummmmm, Wrong. My son (yeah, I know, him again lol) was playing and left his forge on. In the desert close to the trader. He went to the city to loot the skyscraper and when he returned the screamer was inside trashing the place and a few zombies were wandering around outside. He had been gone all day and it was dark when he got back.
Leave a forge on and they will come. Even if you aren't home they will still come. Determined little zombies to have your brains for a meal.

When your son came back from the city, the chunk reloaded and the zombie spawned as he was running up. Zombies are explicitly supposed to despawn, go away, when you leave an area so there aren't thousands of zombies running around after your mini bike ride and dragging down your performance.

 

[Guppycur]

Why not just use the current sleeper system, sprinkle sleeper blocks in the ground that have built in 3 block radius sleeper volumes?

 

[Doombringer101]

So basically you say a world can never be inconsistent? Inconsistency doesn't exist?

Not at all, these inconsistencies exist for a number of reason, game play, balance, system requirements etc.

The inventory system currently is a good example, I can carry insane amounts of blocks in one slot while another only holds a single item like a handgun.

Inconsistent purely for game play purposes.

I was more referring to the way the world works, what the zombies/infected actually are, what abilities they possess etc. All defined by the Pimp's to be whatever they like and thus perfectly consistent with the IP, 'it is this way because we say it is'

- - - Updated - - -

Uuuummmmm, Wrong. My son (yeah, I know, him again lol) was playing and left his forge on. In the desert close to the trader. He went to the city to loot the skyscraper and when he returned the screamer was inside trashing the place and a few zombies were wandering around outside. He had been gone all day and it was dark when he got back.
Leave a forge on and they will come. Even if you aren't home they will still come. Determined little zombies to have your brains for a meal.

Not wrong

- - - Updated - - -

When your son came back from the city, the chunk reloaded and the zombie spawned as he was running up. Zombies are explicitly supposed to despawn, go away, when you leave an area so there aren't thousands of zombies running around after your mini bike ride and dragging down your performance.

This.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

... and therefore define the immersion/reality of their 'world'....

Immersion is about perception of the players.

Sorry there is no way to define or dictate perception/immersion.

TFP can choose how much they care about immersion, but thats all.

 

[Jackelmyer]

You underestimate Kinyajuu and Prime and you are using present day AI to make your argument about future developments. If they can't solve AI and pathing issues then I agree that it would be unfeasible to have zombies moving around in complex tunnels. But with breadcrumbs and improvements it could be done and done well. I agree that if they are the same zombies that are topside it would feel ridiculous but if they are decayed and almost skeletal versions then fine. If that is still the line you've drawn in ridiculous concepts in this game then what about them spawning closer to the surface and then getting into the caverns and rushing downward to where you are. Then no surface destruction, you get to defend your base, and nothing is popping out of solid stone.

I simply pay attention to AI in more than 7D2D and those who've done it pretty well still struggle. So expecting that they'll get AI to some magical point to solve some of these issues? I don't think that's a fair expectation to push around. I wouldn't expect AI to magically become the answer to all of this. Wait for Quantum Computing.

Yah. Completely bass ackwards Jack. Even if you make caverns be POI's using POI placement rules and only put two per biome, sure you won't have any problems with surface prefabs but players won't know whether they are building over a cavern or not and putting a surface indication of an underground cavern is lame, excuse my mobility disadvantaged metaphor. You even admitted that it will mess with player builds and yet Kinyajuu's proposal widens parts of a tunnel you dug by one or two blocks.

Your tunnel plus two whole caverns that always exist whether you dig or not or your tunnel with some nodes of air pockets attached but only if you dig in the first place. Which has the larger SI destabilizing footprint? It's not even close, Jack.

YOU'RE ACKWARDS IS BASS! lol. Agreed that players can run into problems.

You're skimming self is missing points. I never said the couple blocks of widening tunnels was the issue. I said zombies wandering off digging huge paths is a problem.

Oh dang. You win. Great tactic. How did you do it? How can I ever continue the discussion?

It's a magical personality I've been told. Lots of gritting teeth in those statements... weird. huh.

Glad you concede that the small pockets adjacent to existing tunnels aren't a problem. That is exactly what I was saying. As I said earlier it is pointless to apply current AI to the future. We know that the AI will be different than it is now and they are specifically working on improving pathing. Also-- Wandering Hordes? Who ever said that? You can't add something never suggested or hinted at by the developer to make your case either. Kinyajuu specifically said that it would be individual zombies while you were actively digging or Bloodmoon Horde night zombies. Period. Nobody said wandering hordes would stream into your tunnels from a pocket of air adjacent to it.

I still think you simply give AI too much credit. What do you think this is... 2018 with flying cars, and driverless cars, and jet packs and stuff? Wait... REGARDLESS!

Nah, I just don't see AI evolving to that degree is all I'm saying. And actually that's a great point. ALL of this underground stuff should be shelved. Just shelve it.

Improve AI. See what you CAN do with AI so we don't have Dev's spinning wheels trying to do stuff underground that either AI will solve or stuff underground that AI will just make worse.

So excellent wrap up Roland! THANKS!

Underground Challenges: Shelved.

AI: Up to bat!

 

[Roland]

Jackalmyer made a good point regarding the 40 blocks thing. That would actually make no sense at all thinking of it now.
People wouldnt be burried so far down, the term 6 feet under didn't come from nowhere. Noone on the planet would be digging down 40 meters to burry one corpse in a field (maybe unless they were a very practical serial killer) and whereby I can fully envisage Rolands ground bursting fantasy (and it is kind of nice) people would be coming out of cemetary ground, not an uninhabited island in the middle of a lake.

Remember this game seems to be set in the western world, and in the west we bury people in cemeteries and not beneath massive rock layers in the earth.

This sort of comes back to the other poster that was ok for shallow ground spawns, which I absolutely agree with. Just like the cemetary level zombies.

I remember when I came across zombies in graves in 7D, I broke into the little churchyard and came across a fat woman piled up on a coffin.

I must say, I thought I was in need of a new pair of underwear after that experience...

We weren't the first to inhabit this land and bury our dead. So 6 ft is not necessarily a hard limit.

But forget that. Kinyajuu's idea could work if you only take the dirt layer into consideration. The zombies break in near the entrance/exit of your tunnel but still deep enough to be inside and then work their way down through the tunnel to assault your bunker. I think that is less cool than seeing them breaking through the walls around you but for the sake your immersion I'd be willing to give up that dream and go with something less cool but that still results in me defending my bunker from zombies.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

@Kinyajuu and Prime´s WIP

I think this Underground Spawn by Digging can work in the first 15 Blocks Deep in Sand/Soil.

So make the Soil layer larger (7->15 Blocks deep) and it is fine.

Zombies spawning from massive Rock.... breaks my immersion

btw this way we could make Rock really sturdy (4000 hp) but with the same amount of Ressources per hit

So bedrock dwelling is fairly hard to earn and more People would just go only into the soil

 

[Jackelmyer]

Why not just use the current sleeper system, sprinkle sleeper blocks in the ground that have built in 3 block radius sleeper volumes?

Oh ho! Mr. Prefab and his neato volumes trying to save the day. I hope you wiped after posting this.

 

[Doombringer101]

Immersion is about perception of the players.Sorry there is no way to define or dictate perception/immersion.

TFP can choose how much they care about immersion, but thats all.

Players perception is dictated by the rules of the world or story etc.

Just because I hate the idea of sparkly vampires does not mean they are not perfectly immersive within the bounds of the authors world.

I still hate them tho

 

[Pille]

Not at all, these inconsistencies exist for a number of reason, game play, balance, system requirements etc.The inventory system currently is a good example, I can carry insane amounts of blocks in one slot while another only holds a single item like a handgun.

Inconsistent purely for game play purposes.

I think it's not really an inconsistency since it relies on simple rules which apply for all items and blocks (just my opinion) but okay I get what you mean. I don't this philosophy though:

I was more referring to the way the world works, what the zombies/infected actually are, what abilities they possess etc. All defined by the Pimp's to be whatever they like and thus perfectly consistent with the IP, 'it is this way because we say it is'

Makes any discussion pointless imo cos TFP are always right. :-D

 

[Jackelmyer]

Players perception is dictated by the rules of the world or story etc.Just because I hate the idea of sparkly vampires does not mean they are not perfectly immersive within the bounds of the authors world.

I still hate them tho

That is not at all how Perception is dictated. What dictates perception is a hugely complex thing and developers who think they can dictate perception outside of human norm usually have their crap go down in flames. Either that or they've created something so far outside the real of what is perceived as a norm becomes a new norm within common perceptions. Dictate... pft.

 

[Janna3921]

Underground hazards like gas build up etc. are fine so long as their is an ongoing cost to maintaining them, not just 'build an air filtration system and your done' and I mean besides using fuel to keep motors running and the like.Things like replacement filters, durability on components so things break down and need new parts thus requiring looting trips to obtain more etc.

The challenge needs to be vaguely comparable to those faced by an above ground base.

I love building underground but that's a recipe for boredom currently, make it challenging, the current system allows me to make an underground base that is fully self sufficient (food, water, gas etc.) in complete safety with the odd bit of daytime looting.

Include a toggle off option in the same way as weather survival for those that don't want the added challenge.

That's how I see it, as you breathe out you build up toxic air and you have to have a ventilation system (which requires specific equipment) that requires electricity (generator, gas, wiring) to pump out the bad and bring in the good, filters (metal, ores to make them, cotton to be part of the filter, plastic for the frame) to help keep it clean. Being safe should have some cost to it, not a get out of jail free card. But that option should be there for those who want to live underground and like to come out to loot, hunt and even fight zombies at various times of their choosing.

We all get up in arms about the zombies respawning in a POI that is taken over as a base or as we loot it, yet it seems it is okay to state that zombies should spawn in a underground base to force the players to be above ground.

Tit for tat, if you don't like zombies spawning in your POI base, don't go stating that zombies should spawn in a underground base to force the player to be on the surface.

It keeps coming back to others wanting to tell someone else how they should play the game. If the developers plan for it that is different, but for Bossy with the my way or the highway attitude, I go take a long walk off a short pier, preferable into shark infested water loaded with chum.

Make it a option, toggle to have it on or off; set for extremely high game level so the causal player, the ones who have a life outside of 7 days, can still play the game.

 

[Doombringer101]

I think it's not really an inconsistency since it relies on simple rules which apply for all items and blocks (just my opinion) but okay I get what you mean. I don't this philosophy though:

Makes any discussion pointless imo cos TFP are always right. :-D

That's a given you can express your dislike tho and they may change what is 'right'