PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Death2gnomes]

Knocked off...AGAIN?
Pray, tell us the story of that time you got knocked off your minibike the first time and it emotionally scarred you so horribly that you would not only uninstall 7dtd but also delete it from your Steam account. Why are you so against such a thing?

Doesn't sound so bad to me...

And then--- what if someone else threatens they will uninstall and delete the game from their Steam account if TFP doesn't implement minibike dislodgement? How ever will the Pimps cope if they're damned if they do and damned if they don't?

Words cannot convey the strength of the sentiment, over-exaggerated as much as it seems (it really is tho). What I dont want to see is when a goldenrod flower or patch of snowberries knocks someone off their minibike. There were times in some older mmo's that would get knocked off a horse if you jumped in place in the wrong spot or someone farted downwind. I really dont like this type of mechanic, if it gets bugged or something is off with it, the time between fixes is far too long. I would rather see Zeds knock you down developed first, because getting knocked off a minibike should almost always kill you or very close to it.

The Blood Moon is a NEW FEATURE & some of us prefer the WANDERING HORDES to constantly building & repairing a base because of a predetermined game clock that constantly gives you bigger & bigger Hordes that will destroy your base even more every 7 Days.I don't want to play like that! I want to have time to explore, build & survive on my terms & not the Game Clock making me run back & defend my base. (Just like returning to the control room in COD Zombies)

I am not talking about other games I am talking about this one & its original concept of trying to survive a Zombie Future alone, in the woods, in my underwear.

Another problem with the BM is I run a server & I would not want to join a server on day 150 with maxed out 7 Day Hordes & try to survive, it would not be possible or fun.

A server needs to be like Day 1 for everyone that joins the server no matter what day count the server is on.

This. I agree the day 7 horde should be handled different, there is no way a level 1 can deal with a radiated cop 5 minutes into joining a new server.

 

[Darkfoxx117]

Gamestage is calculated per player, no?

 

[meganoth]

The devs have said when backpacks are added you will start with a smaller bag and the current space you have is biggest bag.
I honestly don't understand why loot issues are so tough for people. It's easy to place a chest to store stuff and you shouldn't be able to carry 100 items on you.

Is this the reality argument again or where does the "you shouldn't" come from? If yes,[irony on] don't forget stacking, you shouldn't be able to carry more than the material to make a tenth of a cobblestone block and definitely no 6000 pieces of iron.[irony off]

But the real answer to your implied question is: Because this is a game, not work, it should maximize the fun and interesting activities, not the tedium. It could be argued that small inventories make the game a bit more difficult or it might teach some people the art of throwing away things. But for the majority of players it is just a nuisance that makes you waste the more time with inventory mamagement the less space you have.

Naturally this is a matter of opinion and taste whether the backpack is too small, just right or too big.

My beef with the backpack at the moment is that I (as scavenger) have to waste lots of time with managing my inventory while I clearly see that the easy path would be to mine a few in-game hours, produce a stack of machete blades (or some other stackable item with trader value) and sell that to the trader with no inventory problems at all. Then buy the stuff I want instead of working with the stuff I find.

The Trader is ok as a game element but from ignored in A15 it became too important in A16. In my current co-op game 3 out of the 4 players are constantly touring traders. The small backpack is not the main reason for this but it encourages this degeneration of playstyles.

 

[Death2gnomes]

Is this the reality argument again or where does the "you shouldn't" come from? If yes,[irony on] don't forget stacking, you shouldn't be able to carry more than the material to make a tenth of a cobblestone block and definitely no 6000 pieces of iron.[irony off]
But the real answer to your implied question is: Because this is a game, not work, it should maximize the fun and interesting activities, not the tedium. It could be argued that small inventories make the game a bit more difficult or it might teach some people the art of throwing away things. But for the majority of players it is just a nuisance that makes you waste the more time with inventory mamagement the less space you have.

Naturally this is a matter of opinion and taste whether the backpack is too small, just right or too big.

My beef with the backpack at the moment is that I have to waste lots of time with managing my inventory while I clearly see that the easy path would be to mine a few in-game hours, produce a stack of machete blades (or some other stackable item with trader value) and sell that to the trader with no inventory problems at all. Then buy the stuff I want instead of working with the stuff I find.

The Trader is ok as a game element but from ignored in A15 it became too important in A16. In my current co-op game 3 out of the 4 players are constantly touring traders. The small backpack is not the main reason for this but it encourages this degeneration of playstyles.

Day 76 and I have yet to make any bullets, its too easy to just buy from the trader. Coupled with the fact that Nitrate is so hard to find, harder than Aluminum(read:LEAD) and even harder than Shale, this just mean that caves need to be fixed and reinvented or repopulated? and maybe even be able to be used as a base for short periods of time but caves can not survive late stage day 7 hordes so farming materials is now too much of a chore when the trader is much closer and easier to find.

 

[Tin]

Is this the reality argument again or where does the "you shouldn't" come from? If yes,[irony on] don't forget stacking, you shouldn't be able to carry more than the material to make a tenth of a cobblestone block and definitely no 6000 pieces of iron.[irony off]
But the real answer to your implied question is: Because this is a game, not work, it should maximize the fun and interesting activities, not the tedium. It could be argued that small inventories make the game a bit more difficult or it might teach some people the art of throwing away things. But for the majority of players it is just a nuisance that makes you waste the more time with inventory mamagement the less space you have.

Naturally this is a matter of opinion and taste whether the backpack is too small, just right or too big.

My beef with the backpack at the moment is that I have to waste lots of time with managing my inventory while I clearly see that the easy path would be to mine a few in-game hours, produce a stack of machete blades (or some other stackable item with trader value) and sell that to the trader with no inventory problems at all. Then buy the stuff I want instead of working with the stuff I find.

The Trader is ok as a game element but from ignored in A15 it became too important in A16. In my current co-op game 3 out of the 4 players are constantly touring traders. The small backpack is not the main reason for this but it encourages this degeneration of playstyles.

TBH (and this is just my opinion) some elements of the game needs to be grounded/based on reality or it just starts to get silly and can no longer be taken seriously. It's just a matter of how far you feel it should be stretched for better game play. I don't think anyone is trying to push that we can't carry nothing more than 1 or 2 items.

I'm in the camp that at least some form of "Item management" needs to be in the game and having a 72 slot bag is a bad thing... (imo) You shouldn't be able to carry your whole base in your backpack and you're just going to need to prioritize what you should or shouldn't take.

So yeah, the "Reality" argument should be pitted against "game play" a lot in this type of game.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Yes, you can loot and use a chest, but when you have to move on what do you take with you? No minibike schematic and even if you did find one there is no working workbench to use and you will be moving on to find a better town/city so what do you carry?

Yeah, sometimes i wish bigger backpacks, too. But while thinking about it, THIS is just what makes it interesting and difficult. You have to decide what to take with you. And space is limited. You can't carry everything.

When i raid a town one day, i got items that will fill up 3-4 backpacks, even if i optimized the stacking through some chests.

So if you extend the backpack for e.g 12 further slots, the next one will still complain, it's to small.

If you have to move greater distances, you have to leave stuff back, or travel more than one time to carry your stuff. It's simple as that.

I'd even prefer that from the start you only should have your toolbelt and need to craft a lvl1 backpack from plant fiber before you even can use your inventory storage. Further than there should be improved backpacks, cloth, leather, and so on. With different slot count, but the higher the slot count, it will slow down your max speed when walking, running and even on minibike or increase stamina drain. Then you can decide where to put your preferences.

Maybe also a skill "effective backpack stacking" for 25 skillpoints which gives you one more column on backpackspace.

I also thought about starting a new SP game as traveler, where i am not allowed to stay at the same place for more than one night. And what makes me interested in this gamestyle is the limitied backpack, because then i really have to decide what i carry with me.

 

[Alexsanderr]

Is there a wishlist thread for a17? If not shameless plug for big bank vault doors (like drawbridges but 3x2x3 and circular(the doorframe would be square with the door swinging out being circular)) and new decor blocks to go into the vaults, piles of old cash, stacks of gold bars, casino coin racks etc...!

The idea is more fleshed out here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/7daystodie/comments/70zaly/suggestion_for_new_decor_blocks

Ps: Maybe one day we can have a complete overhaul of items being used as decoration

Armories with gunracks and displays, food storage warehouses with visible canned food on display, the duke of navegane's vault with piles of gold, cash, bullets, and of course dukes. We already sort of have this for gas, with gas barrels, itd be awesome to see it for every other item in the game and would go along way in visibly showing a settlements progression.

 

[beerfly]

Adding few more colors of the lights ( red, green , yellow ) could be usefull. I use current as indicator for my sensors, instead speaker. Nothing better than blinkin red lights all around the base while Zeds are trying to catch you.

 

[Death2gnomes]

Yeah, sometimes i wish bigger backpacks, too. But while thinking about it, THIS is just what makes it interesting and difficult. You have to decide what to take with you. And space is limited. You can't carry everything. When i raid a town one day, i got items that will fill up 3-4 backpacks, even if i optimized the stacking through some chests.

So if you extend the backpack for e.g 12 further slots, the next one will still complain, it's to small.

If you have to move greater distances, you have to leave stuff back, or travel more than one time to carry your stuff. It's simple as that.

I'd even prefer that from the start you only should have your toolbelt and need to craft a lvl1 backpack from plant fiber before you even can use your inventory storage. Further than there should be improved backpacks, cloth, leather, and so on. With different slot count, but the higher the slot count, it will slow down your max speed when walking, running and even on minibike or increase stamina drain. Then you can decide where to put your preferences.

Maybe also a skill "effective backpack stacking" for 25 skillpoints which gives you one more column on backpackspace.

I also thought about starting a new SP game as traveler, where i am not allowed to stay at the same place for more than one night. And what makes me interested in this gamestyle is the limitied backpack, because then i really have to decide what i carry with me.

A minibike trailer or a little red wagon (Radio Flyer!) or a shopping cart we have to push around, varying capacity that could be from 36 to 144 items, that is the direction to go here. Then, it wouldnt matter as much what size the backpack is.

 

[Roland]

Day 76 and I have yet to make any bullets, its too easy to just buy from the trader. Coupled with the fact that Nitrate is so hard to find, harder than Aluminum and even harder than Shale, this just mean that caves need to be fixed and reinvented or repopulated? and maybe even be able to be used as a base for short periods of time but caves can not survive late stage day 7 hordes so farming materials is now too much of a chore when the trader is much closer and easier to find.

You lost me at Aluminum...

Nitrate is harder to find than a nonexistent ore in the game? Read the ingame journal for mining. I think it will help.

 

[spacepiggio]

Words cannot convey the strength of the sentiment, over-exaggerated as much as it seems (it really is tho). What I dont want to see is when a goldenrod flower or patch of snowberries knocks someone off their minibike. There were times in some older mmo's that would get knocked off a horse if you jumped in place in the wrong spot or someone farted downwind. I really dont like this type of mechanic, if it gets bugged or something is off with it, the time between fixes is far too long. I would rather see Zeds knock you down developed first, because getting knocked off a minibike should almost always kill you or very close to it.



This. I agree the day 7 horde should be handled different, there is no way a level 1 can deal with a radiated cop 5 minutes into joining a new server.

I like the idea of a BM but not every 7 Days, 7 DTD has to do with the Virus & finding an antidote. Maybe once a month or 3 months game time, just have the BM make the ZEDS go CRAZY & not make a bee line to your base to destroy it. I do not want my player or base to be a ZED Magnet.

I like the concept of a BM but would like to change how it is implemented or to turn it off IE: T/F.

I want the ZEDS AI to control the game based on my actions in the game. What good is ZED AI & STEALTH implementation when we are a ZED MAGNET. This has been a problem ever since A6 when our bases were constantly getting destroyed. Remember going to towns & the ZEDS completely tore it up before you even got there. That has been the problem the whole time & the BM in my opinion has just complicated the problem.

Until the ZEDS AI & the PLAYERS ACTIONS that interact with that AI is fixed & working properly I think the BM should be on the back burner.

The PLAYER or his BASE can not be the magnet that draws a ZED, the actions of the player has to be the trigger to attract ZEDS.

 

[Aldranon]

You lost me at Aluminum...
Nitrate is harder to find than a nonexistent ore in the game? Read the ingame journal for mining. I think it will help.

Maybe they have a modded Factorio mod for 7D2D? One could hope, as making my own nuclear power plant and laser turret defense in a FPS/Survival/Zombie Apocalypse game was just on my wish list.

Making my own tank and some trains would be nice too.

 

[spacepiggio]

Gamestage is calculated per player, no?

Say you join friends on a server & go to their base to co-op on day 150. You give your friend better weapons & tools but he is still level 1 on a server on day 150 & fight the same Hordes.

 

[spacepiggio]

A minibike trailer or a little red wagon (Radio Flyer!) or a shopping cart we have to push around, varying capacity that could be from 36 to 144 items, that is the direction to go here. Then, it wouldnt matter as much what size the backpack is.

Way back when we were still talking about driving the cars around they said something about making the carts mobile to push around.

I would always get the 1/W the wobbly wheel.

Say your friend broke his leg & no splint, you could push him around, ha.

 

[xercesblue]

The Blood Moon is a NEW FEATURE & some of us prefer the WANDERING HORDES to constantly building & repairing a base because of a predetermined game clock that constantly gives you bigger & bigger Hordes that will destroy your base even more every 7 Days.I don't want to play like that! I want to have time to explore, build & survive on my terms & not the Game Clock making me run back & defend my base. (Just like returning to the control room in COD Zombies)

I am not talking about other games I am talking about this one & its original concept of trying to survive a Zombie Future alone, in the woods, in my underwear.

Another problem with the BM is I run a server & I would not want to join a server on day 150 with maxed out 7 Day Hordes & try to survive, it would not be possible or fun.

A server needs to be like Day 1 for everyone that joins the server no matter what day count the server is on.

You know I never thought about it but that's when I stopped playing was when the blood moon stuff got introduced. Is there no way to currently turn it off?

I never really connected it but the bloodmoon is what caused me to not enjoy the game anymore. I enjoyed the casual nature of it with wondering hordes but this constant stress of the clock counting down for a predetermined amount of enemies to swarm you and likely destroy everything just for the clock to start again giving you barely enough time to get your base back together again. It certainly was ramped up from the 7 day hordes for sure.

I'll admit that I kind of suck at the game but still enjoyed it immensely. I wanted more of a casual challenge and the BM stuff just kind of pushed it over the top for me. I can't speak for how it is now though I stopped playing in Alpha 15 or 14 whichever introduced it. Is it all still the same? Would be nice to have the option to turn it off in XML.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I like the idea of a BM but not every 7 Days, 7 DTD has to do with the Virus & finding an antidote. Maybe once a month or 3 months game time, just have the BM make the ZEDS go CRAZY & not make a bee line to your base to destroy it. [...]

The PLAYER or his BASE can not be the magnet that draws a ZED, the actions of the player has to be the trigger to attract ZEDS.

I guess the intention behind BM is to force the player to fight. Something he has to prepare for. Somtehing that keeps a little pressure on the player.

I agree, that happening statically every 7th day makes it a bit boring because it's to predictable. I'd prefer a random occurence, configurable, default 3-10 days. For me an option to disable them would be completely fine for those who don't want to have BM.

But there is nothing challenging in the game besides of the BM. Wandering hordes are trivial and easy to avoid, even without using any glitches or bugs (like digging down to bedrock and just wait for the BM to be over). I just thought about that a dozen times and without any BM (or 3 Months, 90 Days, i sometimes don't even play a game that long!) it becomes boring. You don't even need to build a defense base, you don't need to prepare for anything. What is the goal than? Just leveling up building bases and getting better weapons for... nothing?

What actions of the player do you mean? Your actions are already causing consequenzes. That's what the heatmap deals with. Your base is part of your actions. If you constantly use 10 forges in your base, then the forges are the point which gain interest by the Zs, but it is still an action you the player triggered.

What should the consequenzes be, for whatever you are doing? Wandering hordes heading to the heatmap hotspots instead of the player? Even more screamers? Whats the differenze then to a BM, besids it is not happing constantly?

 

[NIN]

Any chance we are going to have long range melee wepons, spears by any chance

 

[Roland]

Is this the reality argument again or where does the "you shouldn't" come from? If yes,[irony on] don't forget stacking, you shouldn't be able to carry more than the material to make a tenth of a cobblestone block and definitely no 6000 pieces of iron.[irony off]
But the real answer to your implied question is: Because this is a game, not work, it should maximize the fun and interesting activities, not the tedium. It could be argued that small inventories make the game a bit more difficult or it might teach some people the art of throwing away things. But for the majority of players it is just a nuisance that makes you waste the more time with inventory mamagement the less space you have.

Naturally this is a matter of opinion and taste whether the backpack is too small, just right or too big.

My beef with the backpack at the moment is that I (as scavenger) have to waste lots of time with managing my inventory while I clearly see that the easy path would be to mine a few in-game hours, produce a stack of machete blades (or some other stackable item with trader value) and sell that to the trader with no inventory problems at all. Then buy the stuff I want instead of working with the stuff I find.

The Trader is ok as a game element but from ignored in A15 it became too important in A16. In my current co-op game 3 out of the 4 players are constantly touring traders. The small backpack is not the main reason for this but it encourages this degeneration of playstyles.

I disagree with pretty much all of this. Inventory management like time management nis an aspect of survival. This is very reminiscent of when people wanted to keep instant crafting in the game because waiting for a timer "added no difficulty to the game and just made things tedious".

Increasing the inventory to the point that you can carry everything you could possibly need and not ever have to make decisions about what to keep or leave behind is akin to just having the creative menu enabled. There's your infinite backpack size right there.

I think it is good enough that mods are available to have larger backpack sizes for those who have separation anxiety for their digital items. We already have additional mobile storage with the mini bike and will have more when taming a wolf companion is implemented.

There are certain elements of a survival game that if removed, even in the name of fun, cause the game to turn into something else. Perhaps you just don't think survival genre games are fun? To me, removing the choices that are inherent to limited inventory slots and limited stack sizes will take this game too far beyond the survival genre to be fun for me and to my mind those who can't stand having to make choices between keeping or tossing are probably just not fans of the genre.

"I want to carry 100% of what I own instead of having to make choices"

"I want to instantly craft everything instead of having to make choices"

"I want 100% skills and perks instead of having to make choices"

"I want to be 100% safe instead of having to make choices"

"I want animals available 100% of the time instead of having to make choices"

Survival is about making good and smart choices and I feel that changes that remove those tough choices from the game should be limited to mods. Having those choices is what defines a lot of the fun for those who like survival games.

 

[ColdGate]

I think it is good enough that mods are available to have larger backpack sizes for those who have separation anxiety for their digital items.

Is it possible in A16 change backpack and minibike storage sizes on server side? I saw that possible to add new items, recipes, enemies etc on server side, without any local installation, but as I know in A15 changing backpack size was only possible with changing local files, and was detected with EAC protection as cheat.

 

[Epicurius]

I disagree with pretty much all of this. Inventory management like time management nis an aspect of survival. This is very reminiscent of when people wanted to keep instant crafting in the game because waiting for a timer "added no difficulty to the game and just made things tedious".
Increasing the inventory to the point that you can carry everything you could possibly need and not ever have to make decisions about what to keep or leave behind is akin to just having the creative menu enabled. There's your infinite backpack size right there.

I think it is good enough that mods are available to have larger backpack sizes for those who have separation anxiety for their digital items. We already have additional mobile storage with the mini bike and will have more when taming a wolf companion is implemented.

There are certain elements of a survival game that if removed, even in the name of fun, cause the game to turn into something else. Perhaps you just don't think survival genre games are fun? To me, removing the choices that are inherent to limited inventory slots and limited stack sizes will take this game too far beyond the survival genre to be fun for me and to my mind those who can't stand having to make choices between keeping or tossing are probably just not fans of the genre.

"I want to carry 100% of what I own instead of having to make choices"

"I want to instantly craft everything instead of having to make choices"

"I want 100% skills and perks instead of having to make choices"

"I want to be 100% safe instead of having to make choices"

"I want animals available 100% of the time instead of having to make choices"

Survival is about making good and smart choices and I feel that changes that remove those tough choices from the game should be limited to mods. Having those choices is what defines a lot of the fun for those who like survival games.

I agree with 100% of what Roland just posted. My number 1 argument has always been that the survival aspect of this game sometimes gets shelved for 'accessibility'. The choices are what keeps me coming back.